Zatanna Zatara Mistress of Magic Appreciation Thread 2022

[Mai Zen]

Watch out for Meghan Fitzmartin. She's gonna write Zee in a backup for Dark Crisis Tie-in coming out in November. People are complaining about how she's writing heros out of character and ignoring things that have happened to better fit her narrative.

Also all the dead Justice leaguers have been given a Dark Crisis Tie in issue. Do you think they have planned something special for Zatanna since hers will be the last?

Yeah I understand Cassie is a snorty girl and on grief, but damn those dialogues is so vicious xd. At least it's a miniseries so there are still room for her and other characters to make ammend and develop themselves.

Zatanna dream story in short story format wouldn't let Meghan Fitzmartin to do a big change of characterizations (hopefully)

[John Venus]

Fans writing characters can be very hit/miss. The last two decades of DC has been ruled by writers making their fanon canon.

Johns is the best example. He was great for the JSA , Hawkman and the GL franchise but not so much for the Titans. He said he didn't care for PG but his influence on her character has been mostly positive but his influence on Barry Allen, a character he claims to love, has been 98% terrible (the other 2% accounts for Francis Manapul's artwork).

I'll wait and see how she handles Zee before passing judgement. Fingers crossed that she doesn't fall into the worst Zee writing tropes.

[Edwin30]

She'll get 10 pages. Constantine's gonna be in atleast 9 of them. . I'll accept mindwipe stories than read another ConstantinexZee story.
After years of reading Zatanna, I am sure that writers see her as a way to write more constantine.

[John Venus]

lol, yeah.

We need something like a Zatanna test:

Writer a Zatanna story where:

-Constantine does not appear or is mentioned or acknowledged in any form.

-her father does not come back from the dead or daddy angst in general.

-her plot and interactions don't revolve around a romance arc.

-she is allowed to be competent and fun superheroine in her own right.

[Johnrevenge]

lol, yeah.

We need something like a Zatanna test:

Writer a Zatanna story where:

-Constantine does not appear or is mentioned or acknowledged in any form.

-her father does not come back from the dead or daddy angst in general.

-her plot and interactions don't revolve around a romance arc.

-she is allowed to be competent and fun superheroine in her own right.

Sadly it will never happen. DC writers and editors have forgotten what makes Zatanna and incredible character and they see her now as the useless girlfriend of Constantine.

[Lukmendes]

I knew someone would go there :P.

To be honest I'm not even sure how Constantine would work in Earth-16.

He could always be like Etrigan, y'know, only there once and never again lol.

This is the variant cover for Batman vs Robin btw.

Also, highlights the problem with the suit. Its too bland. The top and jacket are too light. Make them too dark and it's basically a Black Canary costume.

I don't mind her in pants but would prefer something like this:





Credits: Jamal Campbell.

She looks like a waiter here, well, in the first link at least, second one ain't working.

Wouldn’t be the first time a writer has come on board and canonized their fan fiction. Johns did it. But the “why” is that DC’s sales kinda suck right now, so they’re letting the writers take big risks in case it makes the sales go up.

Honestly it's not even a surprise that's happening, the oldest example of this I'm aware of at DC is the original Crisis lol.

Fans writing characters can be very hit/miss. The last two decades of DC has been ruled by writers making their fanon canon.

Johns is the best example. He was great for the JSA , Hawkman and the GL franchise but not so much for the Titans. He said he didn't care for PG but his influence on her character has been mostly positive but his influence on Barry Allen, a character he claims to love, has been 98% terrible (the other 2% accounts for Francis Manapul's artwork).

I'll wait and see how she handles Zee before passing judgement. Fingers crossed that she doesn't fall into the worst Zee writing tropes.

The problem between Johns and Barry is that love for the character, Barry gets overwanked at the expense of about everyone else, ironically including his own too, specifically his characterization where he keeps whining a lot about a dead mommy.

Even Johns on GL has its own share of problems with how he overwanks Hal, it's just less noticeable because he handled other characters better and expanded GL world (And it's still pretty noticeable how Hal gets worshipped), while with Flash he actively screwed over Flash stuff... Was he the one who came up with the retcon of "Barry is the origin of Speed Force"? 'Cause that one is real bad and it's another point against Johns, or whoever came up with that.

lol, yeah.

We need something like a Zatanna test:

Writer a Zatanna story where:

-Constantine does not appear or is mentioned or acknowledged in any form.

-her father does not come back from the dead or daddy angst in general.

-her plot and interactions don't revolve around a romance arc.

-she is allowed to be competent and fun superheroine in her own right.

Man, YJ got "only" two of those in season 4 (Second and fourth options) and that made Zatanna be real bad, and a big part of the reason I consider her arc to be the worst in that series, can only wonder how bad it gets when she's with Constantine lol.

Also different versions of "tests" like this sounds like a pretty good idea, have a writer writer a more usual story for the character before being allowed to branch out, that way at least some characters can be more consistent.

Then again, for something like that to work, it'd need someone to actually know and care for such tests to begin with, and for the writing gimmick at DC not be "throw **** at the wall and see what sticks".

Plus a test like that would make Bendis not have a lot of characters to write, don't think DC would want that after making such effort to get him .

[Vordan]

First look at Zatanna in the Webtoon!

[Frontier]

I think Zee's ideal world would have her dad alive, obviously, but with Fitzmartin I wouldn't be surprised if they threw in Constantine.

First look at Zatanna in the Webtoon!

Dang, that actually looks kind of cool! She's got the top hat !

[Mai Zen]

First look at Zatanna in the Webtoon!

I love this cover. Confident and cool Zee

[John Venus]

Sadly it will never happen. DC writers and editors have forgotten what makes Zatanna and incredible character and they see her now as the useless girlfriend of Constantine.

Sadly true.

He could always be like Etrigan, y'know, only there once and never again lol.

I hope he's not even mentioned. Not even in passing.

Earth 16 and DCSHG are the only times we get a Zatanna who isn't handcuffed to that cancer in a trenchcoat.

I may have my criticisms of E16 Zee but her personality and characterization is close to her Post Crisis version.

She looks like a waiter here, well, in the first link at least, second one ain't working.

She does but I think that vest and shirt could be reworked to give it a more stage magic flair.

The second link is to the same suit just seen from the front:

By Jamal Campbell (2).jpg

Honestly it's not even a surprise that's happening, the oldest example of this I'm aware of at DC is the original Crisis lol.

Jim Shooter and Roy Thomas were the first instances of fans writing their favorite characters I believe.

The problem between Johns and Barry is that love for the character, Barry gets overwanked at the expense of about everyone else, ironically including his own too, specifically his characterization where he keeps whining a lot about a dead mommy.

Even Johns on GL has its own share of problems with how he overwanks Hal, it's just less noticeable because he handled other characters better and expanded GL world (And it's still pretty noticeable how Hal gets worshipped), while with Flash he actively screwed over Flash stuff... Was he the one who came up with the retcon of "Barry is the origin of Speed Force"? 'Cause that one is real bad and it's another point against Johns, or whoever came up with that.

That's my point. When a writer like a character too much it can end up be detrimental to said character.

And yes, Johns is the one who came up with the idea of the Speed Force originating from Barry.

Man, YJ got "only" two of those in season 4 (Second and fourth options) and that made Zatanna be real bad, and a big part of the reason I consider her arc to be the worst in that series, can only wonder how bad it gets when she's with Constantine lol.

Yeah, her 'arc' wasn't even about her. It was about every one else.

Though I heard they gave her a better showing in the latter half of the season .

As I said above though, I hope Constantine is never incorporated into the show and if he is, I hope it's either a forgettable cameo like Etrigan, gratuitously killed off or if there is any romance with Zee, it ends with her realizing how terrible he is and literally chucking him into a garbage bin.

Also different versions of "tests" like this sounds like a pretty good idea, have a writer writer a more usual story for the character before being allowed to branch out, that way at least some characters can be more consistent.

Then again, for something like that to work, it'd need someone to actually know and care for such tests to begin with, and for the writing gimmick at DC not be "throw **** at the wall and see what sticks".

Plus a test like that would make Bendis not have a lot of characters to write, don't think DC would want that after making such effort to get him .

Well, I don't expect the tests to take off but different versions of the test for different characters would be interesting to see. Like I wonder how ones for Wonder Woman or Superman would be like

First look at Zatanna in the Webtoon!

The art looks nice.

The premise is complete ass though.

Fingers crossed that it's a misdirection and the actual content will surprise us.

[Frontier]

She does but I think that vest and shirt could be reworked to give it a more stage magic flair.

The second link is to the same suit just seen from the front:

By Jamal Campbell (2).jpg

I wonder if she's still wearing heels.

The art looks nice.

The premise is complete ass though.

Fingers crossed that it's a misdirection and the actual content will surprise us.

We assume that as soon as they mention the name "John Constantine" - unless you don't like the Victorian England time-travel premise - but I think we should at least give it a chance in terms of waiting to see the actual execution.

[John Venus]

I didn't indicate that I'm doing otherwise though?

I don't like the premise but I'm giving it a chance in case it might actually be good.

Though pushing aside the fact that Zatanna can't seem to get away from Constantine even when she is sent centuries back in the past, a story set in the late 1800's featuring Jack the Ripper isn't wholly original either.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I'd be ok with her meeting John's ancestor Johanna instead of him.

[Vordan]

Zatanna’s webtoon is the only one with a premise that feels like it has a baked in endgame, because they can’t stay forever in the past and they can’t draw out the Ripper murders either. All the other Webtoons feel like they’ve been pitched in mind as ongoing whereas this feels more like a mini.

[Frontier]

I didn't indicate that I'm doing otherwise though?

I don't like the premise us but I'm giving it a chance in case it might actually be good.

Though pushing aside the fact that Zatanna can't seem to get away from Constantine even when she is sent centuries back in the past, a story set in the late 1800's featuring Jack the Ripper isn't wholly original either.

Oh, sorry!

I think the time travel aspect and the Victorian fashions can be a boon to the story if they're handled well.

Zatanna’s webtoon is the only one with a premise that feels like it has a baked in endgame, because they can’t stay forever in the past and they can’t draw out the Ripper murders either. All the other Webtoons feel like they’ve been pitched in mind as ongoing whereas this feels more like a mini.

Vixen's definitely still in origin mode.