Zatanna Zatara Mistress of Magic Appreciation Thread 2022

[Vordan]

[Frontier]

Nice curls .

[Mai Zen]

Review of Batman: Urban Legends #11-16 'Bound to Our Wills':

Link

I also did a few other posts over the course of this week:

Zatanna & Dr Fate: Exploring her comic book interactions with the various Dr Fates.

Zatanna's Age: In which I explore how she aged in comics in relation to Dick Grayson.

After reading your posts, I like to see Nikola Čižmešija drawing Infinite Crisis Arcane Zatanna, put her in Renaissance Italy, sword and sorcerer style. He good at drawing fluent action scenes and magic like you said, I think he can make a more active and stylish Silent Sorceress Zatanna with her giant scythe, magic items, potions, or Leonardo da Vinci unique weapons & items





I miss the old magic team up stories. Love that Phantom Stranger, Dr. Fate, Zatanna and Etrigan story.

[Frontier]

I was reading Galaxy: The Prettiest Star which is the latest YA GN from DC and it has a preview for Zatanna: Jewel of Gravesend.

Probably the most interesting thing I noticed was they changed the names of the Zatarra's. Now they're the "Starr's."

They even changed her parents' names:

Giovanni -> Ezra

Sindella -> Lola

Not sure why they'd change the names but Allura is namedropped.

[Ulysian_Thracs]

lol, yeah.

We need something like a Zatanna test:

Writer a Zatanna story where:

-Constantine does not appear or is mentioned or acknowledged in any form.

-her father does not come back from the dead or daddy angst in general.

-her plot and interactions don't revolve around a romance arc.

-she is allowed to be competent and fun superheroine in her own right.

This is exactly how I feel! Zatanna is one of my favorite characters and I just don't know why they can't let her shine on her own instead of being a vehicle for Constantine or Bruce.

[Edwin30]

I'm kinda happy with the attention Zee's being getting lately. Jld is canceled but she's still popping up here and there. Williamson's Dark Crisis is to blame for the abrupt ending but I think he has something planned for her. Why else would he kill her off when she was not even in the Justice league. We'll just have to patiently wait till November.

This year we had-
Appearances in Young justice.
Appearance in Constantine House of Mystery
JLD till it got canceled.
Team up with Batman in Urban Legends.
A playable character in Injustice 2 Mobile.

Upcoming-
YA novel Zee & the Jewel of Gravesend
Webtoon Zee & the Ripper
A backup in a Dark Crisis tie-in
Some part in Mark Waid's Batman vs Robin

Even that death battle episode made Zee a little more popular.

[Lukmendes]

I hope he's even mentioned. Not even in passing.

Earth 16 and DCSHG are the only times we get a Zatanna who isn't handcuffed to that cancer in a trenchcoat.

As I said above though, I hope Constantine is never incorporated into the show and if he is, I hope it's either a forgettable cameo like Etrigan, gratuitously killed off or if there is any romance with Zee, it ends with her realizing how terrible he is and literally chucking him into a garbage bin.

I think I'm getting a good idea how disliked that ship is here lol.

She does but I think that vest and shirt could be reworked to give it a more stage magic flair.

True, her usual costume in theory is just a simple clothing, but it looks special.

Simple changes make huge differences if well placed.

Jim Shooter and Roy Thomas were the first instances of fans writing their favorite characters I believe.

Hope one of Shooter's favorites wasn't Carol Danvers, the **** he did in Avengers#200 is unbelievable lol.

That's my point. When a writer like a character too much it can end up be detrimental to said character.

Yeah it's bad if the character is overwanked, even worse if it's at the expanse of everyone else.

Those are Mary Sue traits, having those traits by itself isn't a bad thing though, Superman is talked like he's awesome here and there, and it can work 'cause he does a lot and is a friendly guy, even then, he gets his own awkward wanks sometimes over how other heroes are inspired by him (When their origin stories generally show no such thing, same for ongoings), but as it's done well, it can actually enhance a character, or at least, it's not done well but isn't a problem, it's not suffocating everyone else.

And yes, Johns is the one who came up with the idea of the Speed Force originating from Barry.

Man, I try to be fair to Johns, but I wish I could be wrong about his screw ups and dumb decisions more often lol.

Yeah, her 'arc' wasn't even about her. It was about every one else.

If you were to list every character who gets more developed than Zatanna in her own arc, you'd almost get double digits.

It's also annoying how so much of Kaldur'ahm's arc can only happen and make sense because of "Zatanna's" arc, so not only that arc is used to develop everyone else, it's used for the very next arc to make sense too (Arion being Vandal's son and keeping his flute, the crown Arion used being something the Lords of Order gave him, Child's attack being the event that makes "Arion" show up), so not only is her arc only used to develop characters beside her, it's also used to develop the next arc, which, could work well enough if the arc wasn't the worst damn thing in this stupid cartoon that does nothing to develop Zatanna lol.

Though I heard they gave her a better showing in the latter half of the season .

Well, she's what starts the investigation since she spends a few weeks talking with other magic people to confirm if Conner is really dead (She's even the one who annoys Nabu into helping), then gets in contact with Dick to investigate have a detective to investigate some more, and once they manage to deduce what's going on more or less, she goes after the bus that Klarion used to travel around, since the bus was in the Phantom Zone, and once they see the bus is crushed, she summons those creatures from episode 9 to rebuild the bus, at the cost of 'em getting Dick's car, much to his annoyance.

So yeah, she contributes for the entire magic side of the investigation, though I don't remember if she does much as a character outside of this, but hey, if that's something to complain about, then Dick also got screwed since it's his own arc and it's about finding someone else... Too bad she didn't get to do much when fighting Kryptonians, which's a waste since magic is a classic weak point they have.

Well, I don't expect the tests to take off but different versions of the test for different characters would be interesting to see. Like I wonder how ones for Wonder Woman or Superman would be like

Those would need multiple versions for those two characters 'cause of the "everything is canon" **** at DC lol.

But yeah, a test like that could be interesting, again, at least to see if a writer can write an usual story for a character (Doesn't even have to be an arc, an issue or two could be fine), before they get to do their own thing.

Even that death battle episode made Zee a little more popular.

In a good way I'd hope, since death battle can have characters win or lose in ways that just make no sense since the guys didn't do a proper research, and hell, I sometimes wonder if they just want to annoy nerds to get clicks.

Then again, no idea what happened there (Or who she even fought, though I'm like 70% sure it's Wanda), maybe this one was actually good, that can happen with Death Battle too.

[Mai Zen]

I think I'm getting a good idea how disliked that ship is here lol.



True, her usual costume in theory is just a simple clothing, but it looks special.

Simple changes make huge differences if well placed.

If you were to list every character who gets more developed than Zatanna in her own arc, you'd almost get double digits.

It's also annoying how so much of Kaldur'ahm's arc can only happen and make sense because of "Zatanna's" arc, so not only that arc is used to develop everyone else, it's used for the very next arc to make sense too (Arion being Vandal's son and keeping his flute, the crown Arion used being something the Lords of Order gave him, Child's attack being the event that makes "Arion" show up), so not only is her arc only used to develop characters beside her, it's also used to develop the next arc, which, could work well enough if the arc wasn't the worst damn thing in this stupid cartoon that does nothing to develop Zatanna lol.



Well, she's what starts the investigation since she spends a few weeks talking with other magic people to confirm if Conner is really dead (She's even the one who annoys Nabu into helping), then gets in contact with Dick to investigate have a detective to investigate some more, and once they manage to deduce what's going on more or less, she goes after the bus that Klarion used to travel around, since the bus was in the Phantom Zone, and once they see the bus is crushed, she summons those creatures from episode 9 to rebuild the bus, at the cost of 'em getting Dick's car, much to his annoyance.

So yeah, she contributes for the entire magic side of the investigation, though I don't remember if she does much as a character outside of this, but hey, if that's something to complain about, then Dick also got screwed since it's his own arc and it's about finding someone else... Too bad she didn't get to do much when fighting Kryptonians, which's a waste since magic is a classic weak point they have.



Those would need multiple versions for those two characters 'cause of the "everything is canon" **** at DC lol.

But yeah, a test like that could be interesting, again, at least to see if a writer can write an usual story for a character (Doesn't even have to be an arc, an issue or two could be fine), before they get to do their own thing.



In a good way I'd hope, since death battle can have characters win or lose in ways that just make no sense since the guys didn't do a proper research, and hell, I sometimes wonder if they just want to annoy nerds to get clicks.

Then again, no idea what happened there (Or who she even fought, though I'm like 70% sure it's Wanda), maybe this one was actually good, that can happen with Death Battle too.

Honestly at this point, I'm curious on why the female demographic part of Zee fans are still clinging on Zatanna-Constantine relationship. I can see them as good partner in crime

You are right, Zee outfit is kinda simple yet it's classy and presenting Zatanna characterizations very well.

I think You don't need to put double asterisk again when talking about "Zatanna" arc on Young Justice my friend. According to Greg on his forum, the third arc is still about Zatanna.
https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg....php?qid=26033

Although I recommend you guys to wear a hazmat suit before clicking that link



For me, the best thing about that Death Battle is how that episode helping to promote Zatanna. I love the creative fight and it's nice to see Zatanna to be having fun in the battle. The comment section is unexpectedly warm toward Zee.

[Mai Zen]

I was reading Galaxy: The Prettiest Star which is the latest YA GN from DC and it has a preview for Zatanna: Jewel of Gravesend.

Probably the most interesting thing I noticed was they changed the names of the Zatarra's. Now they're the "Starr's."

They even changed her parents' names:

Giovanni -> Ezra

Sindella -> Lola

Not sure why they'd change the names but Allura is namedropped.

Hmm personally kinda want them to maintain Giovanni and Sindella name. Ouh I hope Allura keep appearing again as part to revitalizing Zatanna story back then at Silver Age era

I'm kinda happy with the attention Zee's being getting lately. Jld is canceled but she's still popping up here and there. Williamson's Dark Crisis is to blame for the abrupt ending but I think he has something planned for her. Why else would he kill her off when she was not even in the Justice league. We'll just have to patiently wait till November.

This year we had-
Appearances in Young justice.
Appearance in Constantine House of Mystery
JLD till it got canceled.
Team up with Batman in Urban Legends.
A playable character in Injustice 2 Mobile.

Upcoming-
YA novel Zee & the Jewel of Gravesend
Webtoon Zee & the Ripper
A backup in a Dark Crisis tie-in
Some part in Mark Waid's Batman vs Robin

Even that death battle episode made Zee a little more popular.

It's nice to see You feel optimistic. I hope Zatanna keep getting a steady and well written contents for herself. It's look like Ram V are actually still stand his ground against Williamson, hence he doesn't the Merlin story in time being.

Recently I playing Bioshock Infinite and I got a massive vibe of Zatanna cheerful and pizzazz personality on Elizabeth. Too bad Elizabeth becoming moody goth girl like N52 Zatanna at the end of the game.



I think Zatanna could enjoy an AAA Game treatment before getting a movie, a story heavy game one like Bioshock, The Last of Us, Uncharted. You can put mana/energy system to limit her while have her a cool and unique gameplay.

[John Venus]

Honestly at this point, I'm curious on why the female demographic part of Zee fans are still clinging on Zatanna-Constantine relationship. I can see them as good partner in crime

They're either Constantine fans who want to comfort John through Zee (bleh) or they got into the character through JLD Vol 1 and the animated movies where Zee is a glorified goth groupie of John Constantine. Some people like, what they preceive to be, subversive elements of the character. They like John being a bad boy/rule breaker and they're attracted to the idea of John/Nick Necro/Zee being in a throuple since polyamory is still a much debated/sensitive topic.

But to me that kind of stuff is missing the point of Zee's character and ultimately takes away from her character.

I was reading Galaxy: The Prettiest Star which is the latest YA GN from DC and it has a preview for Zatanna: Jewel of Gravesend.

Probably the most interesting thing I noticed was they changed the names of the Zatarra's. Now they're the "Starr's."

They even changed her parents' names:

Giovanni -> Ezra

Sindella -> Lola

Not sure why they'd change the names but Allura is namedropped.

Well, that's disappointing.

I wish creators didn't get so hung up on names. Just tell a good story.

I think I'm getting a good idea how disliked that ship is here lol.

This is probably the *only* place where it gets disliked. lol

Hope one of Shooter's favorites wasn't Carol Danvers, the **** he did in Avengers#200 is unbelievable lol.

Carol post dates Shooter's career.

Man, I try to be fair to Johns, but I wish I could be wrong about his screw ups and dumb decisions more often lol.

He's done a lot of good work but I think his missteps have eclipsed the good he did.

[John Venus]

I think You don't need to put double asterisk again when talking about "Zatanna" arc on Young Justice my friend. According to Greg on his forum, the third arc is still about Zatanna.
https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg....php?qid=26033

Although I recommend you guys to wear a hazmat suit before clicking that link

I didn't go in with high expectations. I kept an open mind. I wasn't a fan of deaging her or tying her to Dr Fate but I still came out disappointed.

Zatanna was there to facilitate the story arcs of everyone else. She is there to introduce Khalid so he can become Dr Fate. She is there to tell off Mary so the latter would get mad enough to join Granny Goodness. We saw her apprentices confront their fears and an idea of their backstories. Zatanna was just.....there. Her impact on the arc was inadvertently unleashing Child (which she doesn't even realize) and then suggesting the idea of Nabu time sharing Dr Fate instead of just her father. We know that Zatara is Catholic but what about Zatanna? Does she pray or go to Church when she is feeling down? How does she feel about her mother? How does she feel about her Dad being a superhero while her mother died of cancer? Does she have any guilt about not being able to save her mother? Not to mention the fact that they tried to make it seem as if she was grooming her sidekicks to take over as Dr Fate then back tracking in the next scene. It makes no sense from her pov, why doesn't she just tell Khalid that the idea didn't occur to her until the end of their training session?

Overall her arc was very lackluster and we didn't really get to know her more.

I feel like Greg either thinks focusing on Zatara 'counts' as focusing on Zatanna as well or he's just fronting because it's very unlikely for a producer to say 'yeah we screwed up'.

[Lukmendes]

Honestly at this point, I'm curious on why the female demographic part of Zee fans are still clinging on Zatanna-Constantine relationship. I can see them as good partner in crime

It could be a case where they like Constantine more than Zatanna.

Wouldn't also be the first time women are okay with a ship that actively screws over the female too.

I think You don't need to put double asterisk again when talking about "Zatanna" arc on Young Justice my friend. According to Greg on his forum, the third arc is still about Zatanna.
https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg....php?qid=26033

Yeah, he said the same thing about "Rocket's" and talked about it in the same tweet in a way that would imply the same about "Kaldur'ahm's".

I don't really care about whether or not he considers those characters to be the main ones from those arcs, I don't see how that's the case when Zatanna has less development than most characters who have longer than 5 minutes of screen time, Kaldur'ahm's development is only other characters talking about how he might feel and what he actually thinks is hardly shown (Which can make him going from "Hey, I'm not taking therapy" to "hey, I'm taking therapy" look undeserved), and how Rocket's is just "Hey, my autistic son is alright", and in her case it gets even worse 'cause they just threw her into New Genesis related stuff, which's not part of her world, M'gann, Artemis and Zatanna all got arcs around stuff related to 'em, or what they normally deal with, they didn't even bother with that much with Rocket.

Although I recommend you guys to wear a hazmat suit before clicking that link

"Religion propaganda" guy there must've hated the first episode of "Kaldur'ahm's" arc if he watched it, 'cause Khalid's is just an awkward attempt at "Hey, religion is important to me", while the subplot with Kenny-Girl was basically saying that being a Muslim is pretty awesome lol.

For me, the best thing about that Death Battle is how that episode helping to promote Zatanna. I love the creative fight and it's nice to see Zatanna to be having fun in the battle. The comment section is unexpectedly warm toward Zee.

Not exactly surprising now that I think of it, I'm not sure anyone actually dislikes Zatanna that much? As far as I've seen, she's mostly in a spot where she's doing her own thing not messing with anyone else.

She was pretty shitty in that "love letter" to silver age that is Identity Crisis, but uh, it's Identity Crisis, that story did that with plenty of its characters, and fact it aged like milk doesn't help...

This is probably the *only* place where it gets disliked. lol

It's certainly compensated, feels like whenever Constantine is mentioned, it's said alongside the lines of "Stay away from Zatanna".

I haven't seen what the relationship is like, so I can't say much about it, though I do remember a story in what I think was Trinity vol 2 (Back in Rebirth) where Zatanna showed annoyance at seeing him again, so I assume that was cathartic lol.

He's done a lot of good work but I think his missteps have eclipsed the good he did.

Yeah I still try to point out at the good he did, but, man, the screw ups are so noticeable.

On the Green Lantern side, with the Guardians becoming increasingly incompetent and evil, I made a guess that was something Johns started (Or at least, made it worse), and I turned out to be right about that lol.

I feel like Greg either thinks focusing on Zatara 'counts' as focusing on Zatanna as well or he's just fronting because it's very unlikely for a producer to say 'yeah we screwed up'.

https://twitter.com/Greg_Weisman/sta...54516173770752

Considering he says the same thing about Rocket, I think it's the first option lol.

Screenshot in case his twitter gets randomly deleted:

[Edwin30]

I think You don't need to put double asterisk again when talking about "Zatanna" arc on Young Justice my friend. According to Greg on his forum, the third arc is still about Zatanna.
https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg....php?qid=26033

Although I recommend you guys to wear a hazmat suit before clicking that link.

"...it's not a show about superheroes. It's about people.."

What a stupid response.

Okay so you didn't deliver a story that your audience was expecting but what about the animation? The animation sucked. Trying to fool us by using slideshows during flashbacks....Ssooo many flashbacks.

[John Venus]

Yeah, he said the same thing about "Rocket's" and talked about it in the same tweet in a way that would imply the same about "Kaldur'ahm's".

I don't really care about whether or not he considers those characters to be the main ones from those arcs, I don't see how that's the case when Zatanna has less development than most characters who have longer than 5 minutes of screen time, Kaldur'ahm's development is only other characters talking about how he might feel and what he actually thinks is hardly shown (Which can make him going from "Hey, I'm not taking therapy" to "hey, I'm taking therapy" look undeserved), and how Rocket's is just "Hey, my autistic son is alright", and in her case it gets even worse 'cause they just threw her into New Genesis related stuff, which's not part of her world, M'gann, Artemis and Zatanna all got arcs around stuff related to 'em, or what they normally deal with, they didn't even bother with that much with Rocket.

Yep. Like I said we learned more about everyone but Zatanna in her arc.

"Religion propaganda" guy there must've hated the first episode of "Kaldur'ahm's" arc if he watched it, 'cause Khalid's is just an awkward attempt at "Hey, religion is important to me", while the subplot with Kenny-Girl was basically saying that being a Muslim is pretty awesome lol.

I don't completely disagree with the anti-religious (I say this as someone who lives in a religious community) but I think it's bad form to not have any faith represented on screen. I thought Khalid was a good representation of a muslim character and nothing he said about religion felt out of place. .

Not exactly surprising now that I think of it, I'm not sure anyone actually dislikes Zatanna that much? As far as I've seen, she's mostly in a spot where she's doing her own thing not messing with anyone else.

She was pretty shitty in that "love letter" to silver age that is Identity Crisis, but uh, it's Identity Crisis, that story did that with plenty of its characters, and fact it aged like milk doesn't help...

Only time I've seen Zatanna disliked is by Raven fans which is weird. It's because Zee adviced the JL against helping Raven when she went to them for help (NTT #1-5).

I recall she got some hate for Identity Crisis but that stuff has been swept under the rug and we've had multiple reboots since plus even in the original continuity she made amends to him.

It's certainly compensated, feels like whenever Constantine is mentioned, it's said alongside the lines of "Stay away from Zatanna".

I haven't seen what the relationship is like, so I can't say much about it, though I do remember a story in what I think was Trinity vol 2 (Back in Rebirth) where Zatanna showed annoyance at seeing him again, so I assume that was cathartic lol.

It has to do with how she's been written ever since that relationship was solidified and how she has become so defined as Constantine's girlfriend ever since. She's been turned into what TV Tropes calls 'The Chick' of the group, 'The Designated Love Interest' and 'Damsel In Distress'.

Compare her in JLD Vol 1 to how she was written in stuff like her own ongoing, Everyday Magic, '87 Zatanna Special, Adventures of Superman #522 and Action Comics #873. Much stronger, proactive and confident character.

Yeah I still try to point out at the good he did, but, man, the screw ups are so noticeable.

On the Green Lantern side, with the Guardians becoming increasingly incompetent and evil, I made a guess that was something Johns started (Or at least, made it worse), and I turned out to be right about that lol.

I still enjoy his JSA stuff. I think in the end he just over stretched himself and I was sick of DC starting to feel like a shitty fanfic authored by Didio and Johns.

[signalman112]

Colleen Doran.


ZatannaColleenDoran.jpg