Zatanna Zatara Mistress of Magic Appreciation Thread 2022

[Frontier]

The only character I think got burned by the arc other than Zee was Mary, where it felt like they completely missed the point of her character to adapt the least popular part of her entire history. Because for some reason they thought it was a good idea when the character had never even appeared prior to this arc?

[John Venus]

Zatanna and the Atom (Ray Palmer) doodle by creepysteeples.
https://creepysteeples.tumblr.com/po...meets-the-atom

Wonder where is Ray Palmer at the moment, miss his friendship with Zee. Not sure it was him or Ryan Choi as the Atom in the Dark Crisis cover.

I miss him and their relationship too.

It's sad how it's been forgotten. Ray was a part of Zatanna's introductory arc, he was there in the issue she was inducted as a League member (him and later Batman were the first to figure out something was up) and interestingly enough, when her powers started disappearing, Ray is the first person she told it to. Not her father or the Hawks or Ralph or Barry Allen or Batman or Superman or any of the other League members but Ray. I always thought that was interesting and wondered what she saw in Ray that she didn't see in others. I don't think their connection is romantic but it is more than just a platonic friendship.

My idea for a better Zatanna-centric arc (than the show one) would ultimately have been about Zatanna trying to prevent her students from suffering the same fate as her father - that would be far more fitting and rewarding for the characterÂ’s unique history in the show than the reverse.

Here's a very rough summary:

The arc focuses primarily on Zatanna’s relationship to her students and to her father while the whole chaos problem is the backdrop – it’s the extreme situation that mirrors the extreme situation that prompted the tragedy in the “Misplaced” episode. The choice of focus is important because the show needs to build a strong sense of relationship between Zatanna, her students and her father (the latter for newcomers) in those four episodes.

At one point, Zatara has weakened too much for Nabu to be able to fight back so one of the student volunteer due to the desperate situation. Zatanna can’t prevent it. She’s basically been put into the role of her father back in Misplaced. After the battle is over, Nabu refuses to relinquish his host once again. Zatara tries to volunteer, but to no avail because he has grown too frail to withstand the strain. Zatanna comes up with the idea to alternate between her and his current host – in a bid to make sure her student won’t be trapped in the helmet forever - she points out that if the student refuses to put the helmet back on, Nabu still has a good host in Zatanna since she’s strong both physically, mentally and magically. Her other non-host student(s) refuses to let her be consigned to that, so they volunteer as well. Nabu decides to agree to the new terms.

The whole event heavily references the Misplaced episode because it was such a pivotal moment in ZatannaÂ’s life. The whole event here helps Zatanna deal with the guilt she felt including because she was put in her fatherÂ’s role, and sheÂ’s gained a sense of peace with the past because she was able to prevent the tragedy from playing out a second time: she managed to stop it this time.

Alternatively, I would ditch the whole students angle or keep it limited to just Khalid and either Mary or Traci. Zatanna goes on a journey to try and find a way to free her father from Dr Fate. She receives premonitions about the future that he might die soon, a great threat on the horizon and Atlantean magic. She learns that these premonitions are coming from her mother, Sindella who died when she was a child. Zatanna begins to learn more about her mother's magic and tracks her matrilineal heritage from how her mother and father met to the Hidden City all the way to Atlantis and Arion and discovers the origin of the Homo Magi and magic.

During this time, Zatara is starting to waste away and Nabu begins to consider a new host. Zatanna manages to free her father from Nabu's helmet but it leaves them unprepared for the big villain. The driving force would be Zatanna wanting to reunite with her father before his death. Sindella's ghost would serve as a guide to her. Nabu needs a new host but he doesn't want one who knows how to overpower the helmet and remove it any time so he discounts Zatanna. Khalid volunteers (which shows his heroism and self sacrifice), Nabu tests him and then takes him on as a new host. But both him and Nabu manage to negotiate a different deal for their partnership. The story ends with Zatanna getting spend some moments with Zatara before the latter passes away and she watches his ghost fade into the next world while holding Sindella's hand.

We've got any news or anything about the movie yet?

Nope. Nada.

Last thing we heard was that the writer was doing research and also working on another project.

[Vakanai]

I miss him and their relationship too.

It's sad how it's been forgotten. Ray was a part of Zatanna's introductory arc, he was there in the issue she was inducted as a League member (him and later Batman were the first to figure out something was up) and interestingly enough, when her powers started disappearing, Ray is the first person she told it to. Not her father or the Hawks or Ralph or Barry Allen or Batman or Superman or any of the other League members but Ray. I always thought that was interesting and wondered what she saw in Ray that she didn't see in others. I don't think their connection is romantic but it is more than just a platonic friendship.



Alternatively, I would ditch the whole students angle or keep it limited to just Khalid and either Mary or Traci. Zatanna goes on a journey to try and find a way to free her father from Dr Fate. She receives premonitions about the future that he might die soon, a great threat on the horizon and Atlantean magic. She learns that these premonitions are coming from her mother, Sindella who died when she was a child. Zatanna begins to learn more about her mother's magic and tracks her matrilineal heritage from how her mother and father met to the Hidden City all the way to Atlantis and Arion and discovers the origin of the Homo Magi and magic.

During this time, Zatara is starting to waste away and Nabu begins to consider a new host. Zatanna manages to free her father from Nabu's helmet but it leaves them unprepared for the big villain. The driving force would be Zatanna wanting to reunite with her father before his death. Sindella's ghost would serve as a guide to her. Nabu needs a new host but he doesn't want one who knows how to overpower the helmet and remove it any time so he discounts Zatanna. Khalid volunteers (which shows his heroism and self sacrifice), Nabu tests him and then takes him on as a new host. But both him and Nabu manage to negotiate a different deal for their partnership. The story ends with Zatanna getting spend some moments with Zatara before the latter passes away and she watches his ghost fade into the next world while holding Sindella's hand.



Nope. Nada.

Last thing we heard was that the writer was doing research and also working on another project.

I was afraid of that. Thanks.

[Robanker]

I don't watch Young Justice since I didn't care for the direction of the first two seasons. What did they do with Zee/Mary?

Camilla Luddington is reprising Zatanna for Constantine: The House of Mystery.

You mean I have to buy a Constantine story now?

[Frontier]

I don't watch Young Justice since I didn't care for the direction of the first two seasons. What did they do with Zee/Mary?

Basically Zee gets barely focused on in her entire arc until it turns out she may have been molding her magic protege's into becoming hosts for Fate so she could get her father back and they treat it as ambiguous whether she had always planned it for them even though another character basically says she had only just come up with the idea, but she doesn't outright say it. So just some weird attempt at moral ambiguity.

They turn Mary into a magic addict obsessed with her adult form and having power and seem like they're going full Countdown with her.

[TheCasualReader]

Basically Zee gets barely focused on in her entire arc until it turns out she may have been molding her magic protege's into becoming hosts for Fate so she could get her father back and they treat it as ambiguous whether she had always planned it for them even though another character basically says she had only just come up with the idea, but she doesn't outright say it. So just some weird attempt at moral ambiguity.

They turn Mary into a magic addict obsessed with her adult form and having power and seem like they're going full Countdown with her.

Correction: Mary's not a magic addict: she feels inferior without magic. Her test-of-Fate basically lays out: she felt her Shazam persona was better than herself in every way: "I'm beautiful, I'm powerful. I am better and stronger than anyone and anything! Why wouldn't you want this?!"

She stopped living life as Mary, which got Billy and Freddy concerned. She agreed she had a problem and had to stop using the power completely (as in transform into the persona, not the magic itself)

"No, you need me. You are nothing without me!"
"Billy was right. I had to stop, but that doesn't mean I have to stop being a hero. I can use my connection to you to become a sorceress. To be just as important and powerful as you ever were without abandoning who I am."

Mary is basically seeking to make being Mary feel just as fulfilling as being Shazam which is a character struggle that could be interesting to watch unfold. It’s certainly an idea with real merit.

Unfortunately, as far as I am concerned, it doesn’t actually develop into something compelling because Mary takes a steep dive in the next episode where she becomes a unsympathetic character, but with nothing else to still make her compelling as a character. For example, she drains, something that is explicitly shown to be incredibly pain, Khalid and Traci for a meaningless attack against the Child. She harshly rationalizes it afterwards that she had to try something and basically gaslights the two while showing absolutely no sadness that she “had” to hurt them. In the episode after that, she does the same thing again, but to a much worse degree that would have killed her teammates (one of whom was telling her to stop) if Zatanna hadn’t stopped her. Mary continues to show no remorse for doing something that terrible. She’s not shown reacting to what she did, be apologetic or anything. She just does not care.

She proceeds to get upset when Zatanna rightly tells her, gently even, “The fact is you’re attracted to power and you’re not careful about where that power comes from or whom it hurts when you take it or use it.”

She continues to rationalize and justify, all the while still not showing any empathy or just sympathy for the pain the others felt. She proceeds to get upset because she doesn’t get what she wants. She runs away and then cries somewhere. And I couldn’t care less because honestly, why would I? She’s not crying because she hurt others. She’s crying because she didn’t get what she wanted. The ego-stroking, as way of appeal, that Granny Goodness gives her furthers evidences this:

I understand your grief. These so-called heroes, your so-called friends, are jealous of your strength and grace. Twice they've denied you power. The power that is your birthright. You owe them nothing, my dear, for they only seek to turn you into nothing. Into a nobody. [sighing in frustration] Why listen to these petty fools who wish to keep you down? To force you to be unimpressive only that they might seem more impressive in the absence of your true glory. You must see there is no longer any need to obey their rules, their strictures. Advice they claimed to offer for your sake was always just a ploy to minimize you... to keep you small. [whispering] Say it, child. Say the word. You know you want to. [whispers] Shazam. [thunder cracking]


Mary basically goes from a character who is trying to overcome feelings of inadequacies to a character who has so frail an ego that she can't handle being told that she shouldn't drain the life force of others and seems so downright devoid of empathy that it doesn't make a difference to her that she hurts or nearly kills people.

[Robanker]

Basically Zee gets barely focused on in her entire arc until it turns out she may have been molding her magic protege's into becoming hosts for Fate so she could get her father back and they treat it as ambiguous whether she had always planned it for them even though another character basically says she had only just come up with the idea, but she doesn't outright say it. So just some weird attempt at moral ambiguity.

They turn Mary into a magic addict obsessed with her adult form and having power and seem like they're going full Countdown with her.

I hate everything you just told me. I was right not to watch that show.

[Frontier]

Correction: Mary's not a magic addict: she feels inferior without magic. Her test-of-Fate basically lays out: she felt her Shazam persona was better than herself in every way: "I'm beautiful, I'm powerful. I am better and stronger than anyone and anything! Why wouldn't you want this?!"

She stopped living life as Mary, which got Billy and Freddy concerned. She agreed she had a problem and had to stop using the power completely (as in transform into the persona, not the magic itself)

"No, you need me. You are nothing without me!"
"Billy was right. I had to stop, but that doesn't mean I have to stop being a hero. I can use my connection to you to become a sorceress. To be just as important and powerful as you ever were without abandoning who I am."

Mary is basically seeking to make being Mary feel just as fulfilling as being Shazam which is a character struggle that could be interesting to watch unfold. It’s certainly an idea with real merit.

Unfortunately, as far as I am concerned, it doesn’t actually develop into something compelling because Mary takes a steep dive in the next episode where she becomes a unsympathetic character, but with nothing else to still make her compelling as a character. For example, she drains, something that is explicitly shown to be incredibly pain, Khalid and Traci for a meaningless attack against the Child. She harshly rationalizes it afterwards that she had to try something and basically gaslights the two while showing absolutely no sadness that she “had” to hurt them. In the episode after that, she does the same thing again, but to a much worse degree that would have killed her teammates (one of whom was telling her to stop) if Zatanna hadn’t stopped her. Mary continues to show no remorse for doing something that terrible. She’s not shown reacting to what she did, be apologetic or anything. She just does not care.

She proceeds to get upset when Zatanna rightly tells her, gently even, “The fact is you’re attracted to power and you’re not careful about where that power comes from or whom it hurts when you take it or use it.”

She continues to rationalize and justify, all the while still not showing any empathy or just sympathy for the pain the others felt. She proceeds to get upset because she doesn’t get what she wants. She runs away and then cries somewhere. And I couldn’t care less because honestly, why would I? She’s not crying because she hurt others. She’s crying because she didn’t get what she wanted. The ego-stroking, as way of appeal, that Granny Goodness gives her furthers evidences this:

I understand your grief. These so-called heroes, your so-called friends, are jealous of your strength and grace. Twice they've denied you power. The power that is your birthright. You owe them nothing, my dear, for they only seek to turn you into nothing. Into a nobody. [sighing in frustration] Why listen to these petty fools who wish to keep you down? To force you to be unimpressive only that they might seem more impressive in the absence of your true glory. You must see there is no longer any need to obey their rules, their strictures. Advice they claimed to offer for your sake was always just a ploy to minimize you... to keep you small. [whispering] Say it, child. Say the word. You know you want to. [whispers] Shazam. [thunder cracking]


Mary basically goes from a character who is trying to overcome feelings of inadequacies to a character who has so frail an ego that she can't handle being told that she shouldn't drain the life force of others and seems so downright devoid of empathy that it doesn't make a difference to her that she hurts or nearly kills people.

Even just the idea of her trying to live a life without her transformed state and as a mage misses the point because why even use Mary Marvel then?

And her personality felt completely off from Mary in the comics.

[John Venus]

I don't watch Young Justice since I didn't care for the direction of the first two seasons. What did they do with Zee/Mary?

Zatanna was barely the main focus of her own story arc and really was just there to facilitate the stories of her proteges and Klarion rather than an active player. Then they try to imply that she may have been grooming her proteges to be the next Dr Fate but also not? Because she only got the idea sometime during the first episode but she also doesn't answer when Khalid asks her directly about it. Also, Sindella, Zatanna's mom and the woman whose story arc introduced us to the very concept of the Homo Magi, is just a cancer victim and all of the relevance of the Homo Magi are given to Vandal Savage with Zatanna having little/nothing to do with it.

Mary is thirsty for power. She is trying to beat it by not becoming Mary Marvel. She leeched magical powers from her fellow students while they were unconscious and she was facing a threat but it's implied that she just likes having that power for herself and wants more of it. Hence why Zatanna doesn't allow her to become Dr Fate leading her to storm off right into Granny Goodnesses manipulation. It's clearly inspired by Countdown/Final Crisis Mary Marvel but unlike the latter there is thankfully no unnecessary sexualization and overt villainization of Mary Marvel here.

You mean I have to buy a Constantine story now?

You don't. Just skip it or pirate it or just watch relevant clips if you're that curious.

I doubt Zatanna (or really, any magical character not named Constantine) would be used in a way that would leave her fans happy, especially since it's a Constantine story.

[Vordan]

Even just the idea of her trying to live a life without her transformed state and as a mage misses the point because why even use Mary Marvel then?

And her personality felt completely off from Mary in the comics.

Feels very Kid Miracleman esque which is ironic given that character is a copy of Mary

[Robanker]

Zatanna was barely the main focus of her own story arc and really was just there to facilitate the stories of her proteges and Klarion rather than an active player. Then they try to imply that she may have been grooming her proteges to be the next Dr Fate but also not? Because she only got the idea sometime during the first episode but she also doesn't answer when Khalid asks her directly about it. Also, Sindella, Zatanna's mom and the woman whose story arc introduced us to the very concept of the Homo Magi, is just a cancer victim and all of the relevance of the Homo Magi are given to Vandal Savage with Zatanna having little/nothing to do with it.

Mary is thirsty for power. She is trying to beat it by not becoming Mary Marvel. She leeched magical powers from her fellow students while they were unconscious and she was facing a threat but it's implied that she just likes having that power for herself and wants more of it. Hence why Zatanna doesn't allow her to become Dr Fate leading her to storm off right into Granny Goodnesses manipulation. It's clearly inspired by Countdown/Final Crisis Mary Marvel but unlike the latter there is thankfully no unnecessary sexualization and overt villainization of Mary Marvel here.



You don't. Just skip it or pirate it or just watch relevant clips if you're that curious.

I doubt Zatanna (or really, any magical character not named Constantine) would be used in a way that would leave her fans happy, especially since it's a Constantine story.

That's very true. Her relationship with Constantine is the nadir of her character for this reader.

As for Mary, any inspiration taken from Dark Mary is misguided at best and ruining the best Marvel.

[Frontier]

That's very true. Her relationship with Constantine is the nadir of her character for this reader.

As for Mary, any inspiration taken from Dark Mary is misguided at best and ruining the best Marvel.

It's gutsy to draw from two controversial takes and think you can do them better...even when you don't and haven't even focused on the characters enough to justify it.

[TheCasualReader]

I never watched the film (or that much of the DCAMU) but it was my understanding that the Justice League Dark: Apokolips War movie was about reseting the DCAMU, yet the House of Mystery film - which is set in the new continuity - involves that old continuity?

What's the point of erasing the previous continuity for a fresh start if you're still going to have movies that has to do with the previous continuity? Wouldn't that just defeat the point and even risk confusing the new audience?

Why not just have films that are either stand-alone or part of a series depending on the film in question? For example, you'd have a Justice League series which has the ensemble film(s) and the characters' individual films in the same continuity.

Zatanna's look on the cover is great though, and it's not a bad thing, it funny enough makes her look young.

[Vakanai]

I never watched the film (or that much of the DCAMU) but it was my understanding that the Justice League Dark: Apokolips War movie was about reseting the DCAMU, yet the House of Mystery film - which is set in the new continuity - involves that old continuity?

What's the point of erasing the previous continuity for a fresh start if you're still going to have movies that has to do with the previous continuity? Wouldn't that just defeat the point and even risk confusing the new audience?

Why not just have films that are either stand-alone or part of a series depending on the film in question? For example, you'd have a Justice League series which has the ensemble film(s) and the characters' individual films in the same continuity.

Zatanna's look on the cover is great though, and it's not a bad thing, it funny enough makes her look young.

Meh, after years of a shitty DCAMU, to immediately go into a NuDCAMU that makes a mediocre Flash and the JSA and Wonder Woman crossover movie, and then make a shitty butchery of The Long Halloween (unpopular opinion here but I stand by it), it's really kind of par for the course now. I've been largely disappointed with the animated films for years now, with just the rare bright spot of a film oddly and infrequently spaced out among the rubbish to keep me engaged. Questionable decisions are their bread and butter.

[Frontier]

I never watched the film (or that much of the DCAMU) but it was my understanding that the Justice League Dark: Apokolips War movie was about reseting the DCAMU, yet the House of Mystery film - which is set in the new continuity - involves that old continuity?

What's the point of erasing the previous continuity for a fresh start if you're still going to have movies that has to do with the previous continuity? Wouldn't that just defeat the point and even risk confusing the new audience?

Why not just have films that are either stand-alone or part of a series depending on the film in question? For example, you'd have a Justice League series which has the ensemble film(s) and the characters' individual films in the same continuity.

Zatanna's look on the cover is great though, and it's not a bad thing, it funny enough makes her look young.

Essentially it just sets up why certain magical forces want Constantine, particularly the Spectre. I doubt Apokolips War or Constantine setting up the new Flashpoint is going to matter that much to the point of it being completely new watcher averse.

I mean, most of the Tomorrow-verse has been relatively standalone.