Zatanna Zatara Mistress of Magic Appreciation Thread 2022

[Robanker]

Did all those mages even accomplish anything? It seemed like they were basically just watching to see if Swampie actually did anything rather than actually contributing.

Yeah they got some fried Zatara.

Presumably they were holding back some nasty shit, but the big fallout was Giovanni got roasted and Zee blamed John.

But what's a dead parent between two people?

[Mai Zen]

They got their homework right and complete. Quite a full display of Zatanna skills and abilities among her history. Nice to see that people on comment section really enjoying Zatanna snazzy and pizzaz personality. Great "presentation" and battle is pretty creative and entertaining

Yeah they got some fried Zatara.

Presumably they were holding back some nasty shit, but the big fallout was Giovanni got roasted and Zee blamed John.

But what's a dead parent between two people?

Aye they holding Great Evil Beast and while also gathering energy to give it to frontline fighter like Etrigan

[Agent Z]

Bro he got her dad killed. Her dad that she adored.


Constantine can take a tumble in a cement mixer for all I care.

How exactly did that happen again?

[Robanker]

How exactly did that happen again?

As I recall, and it's been a while, John recruits them to join a seance to hold back a cosmic horror and Zee starts lighting up. Giovanni takes it on himself and burns alive, sparring his daughter. Zee blamed him for it.

I'm sure somewhere along the line she forgave him because writers want them together, but that move never really sits right with me. I could see them being colleagues again, but after that I can't see her ever being intimate with John.

[Frontier]

As I recall, and it's been a while, John recruits them to join a seance to hold back a cosmic horror and Zee starts lighting up. Giovanni takes it on himself and burns alive, sparring his daughter. Zee blamed him for it.

I'm sure somewhere along the line she forgave him because writers want them together, but that move never really sits right with me. I could see them being colleagues again, but after that I can't see her ever being intimate with John.

I think Zatanna was focused or looking at something she wasn't supposed to which was why Zatara had to act.

(The same comic also made fun of her classic look, so...)

[Rac7d*]

Wow I’m shocked and learned a few things
I see why she never has a role in those big crossovers

[John Venus]

How exactly did that happen again?

A cult awakened the Great Darkness, a beast from prior to creation, and it threatened all of existence. It's thumb alone loomed over all of hell. So Constantine goes to recruit other magical beings to face the coming darkness. The magical heroes were going to form a seance and focus their power to the players in hell who would confront the beast directly. To put it simply, they acted like a battery to power up the magical being while Mento served as their eyes into hell. The Great Darkness sensed them and like a fuse blowing out due to being overloaded by electricity, it burnt Sargon, then went for Zatanna but Zatara stepped in and redirected to himself thus killing him. The being itself isn't necessarily evil, we are just ants to it, he just wanted to know what was good and what was evil. Etrigan, Dr Fate and Spectre weren't able to provide the answers so they were chewed up and spat out. Swamp Thing however, did provide an answer and was allowed to walk out freely then the beast merged with God and things were trippy

[John Venus]

Is anyone here reading the Clea solo. its fun and I kinda wish we got a Zatanna solo similar to that. Clea's magic is shown to have a lot of variety too, like she makes giant rock hands, binds demons and has a butterfly beam

Yep reading that has me wishing we could get something similar for Zatanna.

Not yet but I'm interested. But there is some Dr Strange stories I want to read first before diving into Clea's story.

For me, it was Wanda's solo series by James Robinson that made me wish they were doing something similar with Zatanna.

How exactly did that happen again?

A cult awakened the great darkness that laid dormant since creation so Constantine gathered all the mystic guys to act as conduit to power up all the players in hell that stood against the beast. The beast sensed them and like a fuse getting blown out due to excess current, participants in the seance began lighting up and dying instantly. Sargon went out first then the beast started targeting Zatanna but Zatara took the curse on himself and died in her place.

Constantine's culpability is in the fact that he gathered all of them there. There was some level of manipulation from him to get them there; Baron Winters and Sargon were both tricked into thinking the other would be there. Mento had no idea what he was getting himself into, didn't want to wear the helmet and he winded up insane because of the event. Knowing John he definitely was counting on Zatanna's residual feelings for him and Zatara's protectiveness to lead them to the seance. When Zatara was burning he tells John to make sure Zatanna escapes the place safely and Zatanna is shown blaming him for 'dragging them there' and that his death is on John's head.

Her being so affection towards in BoM never sat well with me. Felt like we missed a beat since we never saw grieve for her father's death in between Swamp Thing #50 and Books of Magic #2. Not saying she should have hog tied him and blast him with lightning but the level of affection was weird. It's like Vordan said, Zatanna suffers from waifu ism where the writers want to pair her with their favorite male character because she's so hot. The main problem is that the relationship with Constantine has resulted in writers treating her as someone inferior to Constantine in terms of magical knowledge, cleverness and creativity.

[Robanker]

Not yet but I'm interested. But there is some Dr Strange stories I want to read first before diving into Clea's story.

For me, it was Wanda's solo series by James Robinson that made me wish they were doing something similar with Zatanna.



A cult awakened the great darkness that laid dormant since creation so Constantine gathered all the mystic guys to act as conduit to power up all the players in hell that stood against the beast. The beast sensed them and like a fuse getting blown out due to excess current, participants in the seance began lighting up and dying instantly. Sargon went out first then the beast started targeting Zatanna but Zatara took the curse on himself and died in her place.

Constantine's culpability is in the fact that he gathered all of them there. There was some level of manipulation from him to get them there; Baron Winters and Sargon were both tricked into thinking the other would be there. Mento had no idea what he was getting himself into, didn't want to wear the helmet and he winded up insane because of the event. Knowing John he definitely was counting on Zatanna's residual feelings for him and Zatara's protectiveness to lead them to the seance. When Zatara was burning he tells John to make sure Zatanna escapes the place safely and Zatanna is shown blaming him for 'dragging them there' and that his death is on John's head.

Her being so affection towards in BoM never sat well with me. Felt like we missed a beat since we never saw grieve for her father's death in between Swamp Thing #50 and Books of Magic #2. Not saying she should have hog tied him and blast him with lightning but the level of affection was weird. It's like Vordan said, Zatanna suffers from waifu ism where the writers want to pair her with their favorite male character because she's so hot. The main problem is that the relationship with Constantine has resulted in writers treating her as someone inferior to Constantine in terms of magical knowledge, cleverness and creativity.

The short-lived DC Nation magazine pretty much stated she's weaker than he is.







Which is grade-A bullshit. She's one of DC's premier mages and that's much more core to her appeal than Constantine who's gimmick is more "conman who uses magic." I'm not saying John's unskilled, but he's not on her level and certainly not near Doctor Fate's (who is generally DC's premier sorcerer).

[Frontier]

[/B]

The short-lived DC Nation magazine pretty much stated she's weaker than he is.







Which is grade-A bullshit. She's one of DC's premier mages and that's much more core to her appeal than Constantine who's gimmick is more "conman who uses magic." I'm not saying John's unskilled, but he's not on her level and certainly not near Doctor Fate's (who is generally DC's premier sorcerer).

One thing I'll give the JLD animated movie, once Zatanna let loose she was the strongest person in the whole room.

[John Venus]

[/B]

The short-lived DC Nation magazine pretty much stated she's weaker than he is.

Which is grade-A bullshit. She's one of DC's premier mages and that's much more core to her appeal than Constantine who's gimmick is more "conman who uses magic." I'm not saying John's unskilled, but he's not on her level and certainly not near Doctor Fate's (who is generally DC's premier sorcerer).

lol, I remember someone on FB introducing Zatanna as 'a mage on the level of John Constantine' and I was like WTF.

I was reading DC around the mid- 00's, she was the primary go-to-person when it came to magic stuff. She was in every big event, even if it was a small cameo appearance. Constantine was virtually non existent in the main DCU because Vertigo and Hellblazer was walled off from the rest of the DCU.

It's sad how far the magic side has fallen. Zee, Phantom Stranger, Spectre,Madame Xanadu all feel like shadows of their former selves.

One thing I'll give the JLD animated movie, once Zatanna let loose she was the strongest person in the whole room.

I found it meh. More discount Jean Grey/Scarlet Witch bullshit. And of course John had to talk her down as if she has no control over her own abilities and he is inexplicably her mentor in the movie as well. Then in JLD Apokolips War she just dies to further his story arc.

[TheCasualReader]

[/B]
Which is grade-A bullshit. She's one of DC's premier mages and that's much more core to her appeal than Constantine who's gimmick is more "conman who uses magic." I'm not saying John's unskilled, but he's not on her level and certainly not near Doctor Fate's (who is generally DC's premier sorcerer).

It's also bullshit because Constantine's appeal is that he is not a powerful sorcerer, so he has to trick his opponents with his wit rather than his magic. He has to work within his situation. If he gets kidnapped by some non-powered people, he can't just open a portal and step out and he can't just tell them: hey, if you come after me, I'm going to lightning your ass. In the Hellblazer (2020) series, he is forced to work for a completely human and non-powered British prince for that reason, and he has to bluff that he knows what the hell he's doing.

That example also highlights the difference in power between Constantine and Zatanna because you can't put Zatanna or for that matter, Doctor Fate into that situation without highlighting that its an atypical situation for them to be in and requires adjustments to justify why they're in it (ex. they've lost their powers or are severely weakened by something)

I love Constantine when he is on his own and I usually hate Constantine when he is with superheroes. One of the thing that really grinds me in the case of the latter is that he frequently becomes subject to what I suppose could be called the Batman-always-has-a-plan effect? Constantine ends up becoming the character who can just outwit anyone, but it's not because he pulled off an impressive ploy and it makes sense for it to work: he can just do it and it just works.

How can Constantine lock Doctor Fate out of the Tower of Fate? He just can. It's not explained, it's insulting to the character and it doesn't make sense, but he just can.

"But Constantine's whole deal is that he cons more powerful people!" Yes, that explains why he might be able to pull it off, but not how he can do it.

Throw in that Constantine sometimes has a smug "Yup, I'm an asshole. That's who I am." on top of that, and you got a grating character (to me)

[StarSpangledMan]

By Steve Rude

[John Venus]

It's also bullshit because Constantine's appeal is that he is not a powerful sorcerer, so he has to trick his opponents with his wit rather than his magic. He has to work within his situation. If he gets kidnapped by some non-powered people, he can't just open a portal and step out and he can't just tell them: hey, if you come after me, I'm going to lightning your ass. In the Hellblazer (2020) series, he is forced to work for a completely human and non-powered British prince for that reason, and he has to bluff that he knows what the hell he's doing.

That example also highlights the difference in power between Constantine and Zatanna because you can't put Zatanna or for that matter, Doctor Fate into that situation without highlighting that its an atypical situation for them to be in and requires adjustments to justify why they're in it (ex. they've lost their powers or are severely weakened by something)

I love Constantine when he is on his own and I usually hate Constantine when he is with superheroes. One of the thing that really grinds me in the case of the latter is that he frequently becomes subject to what I suppose could be called the Batman-always-has-a-plan effect? Constantine ends up becoming the character who can just outwit anyone, but it's not because he pulled off an impressive ploy and it makes sense for it to work: he can just do it and it just works.

How can Constantine lock Doctor Fate out of the Tower of Fate? He just can. It's not explained, it's insulting to the character and it doesn't make sense, but he just can.

"But Constantine's whole deal is that he cons more powerful people!" Yes, that explains why he might be able to pull it off, but not how he can do it.

Throw in that Constantine sometimes has a smug "Yup, I'm an asshole. That's who I am." on top of that, and you got a grating character (to me)

You've summed it up perfectly there. It's never explained how he does it, he just does it because he can. Like him stopping vampire Zatanna, how does he do it? Because he's Constantine that's how. It's just lazy writing and cheap power fantasy.

[juan678]

BATMAN: THE KNIGHT #7
Written by CHIP ZDARSKY
Art and cover by CARMINE DI GIANDOMENICO
Variant cover by RICCARDO FEDERICI
$4.99 US | 40 pages | 7 of 10 | Variant $5.99 US (card stock)
ON SALE 7/19/22
Magic is in the air as Bruce Wayne travels to New York City to study under the legendary John Zatara and his daughter, Zatanna. But there’s dark magic loose in the Big Apple, and Bruce’s path toward becoming Batman must cross it. Will a man who is training his body and mind to combat crime be ready for a spiritual threat?