Young Avengers Appreciation 2022

[ComicNoobie]

This is something that happens to several heroes. Hank, infamously, gets crapped on by his fellow founders Tony and Thor, Scott Lang, Hawkeye and most recently the Black Knight.

Now, granted, this current iteration of Thor is a bit of a knucklehead and doesn't seem to respect anyone, even himself (and Tony's always been self-absorbed, if not quite so egotistical and dismissive of others in the past), so the fact that Thor's being an ass to Cassie just sort of follows along with his characterization for the last five years or so.

I kind of want to see him lip off to someone like Sersi, who'll turn him into a Frog of Thunder and his hammer into a whiff of magic smoke. Not since Odin kicked his butt out of Asgard for being a butthead has he so badly needed a smack upside the head.

Cassie, like all size-changers, should be an absolute badass. Because, physics. The square-cube law states that when height doubles, weight octuples. So if Cassie grows to double her size, her weight has to go up by a factor of eight. And if she goes up to ten times size, 50-60 feet in height, which we've seen her do, her weight increases *a thousandfold.* If her bones and flesh remained only as (proportionally)strong and tough as they are when she's normal size, the bones would shatter explosively under the weight, and her muscles slough off of them as her body collapses into a pile of gore, dying horribly in seconds.

Obviously this doesn't happen when Cassie (or Hank, or Erik, or Bill) grows to giant size, which means whatever extra mass they are adding is strong enough and tough enough to support that extra weight, which means that, at 10x size, a size we've seen her at before, she *should* be as strong and tough as old Marvel Handbook-era Hercules or Namor or Thor, able to lift close to 100 tons, and with bones tougher than any substance on earth (other than fantasy stuff like adamantium), and muscles and sinews and skin at least as durable as battleship steel.

So, again, badass. 'Cause, science.

There was that one time Cassie arm wrestled Hercules in Mighty Avengers lol. But yeah, Cassie and size changers in general should be more badass in Marvel, but at times it feels like they just are big targets to make other heroes/villains look more impressive. They rarely get the cool moments anymore. Marvel even values super soldiers and tactical fighters over them, as shown how effortlessly Taskmaster took down three giants at once. I think that has played a factor into why the size changers/Ant-Fam have mainly been using shrinking styles over growing as of late. They were never on the level of Hulk, Thor, or Namor. But now it feels like anyone with super strength or above average strength can take them down with relative ease.

That being said I think Cassie was used pretty well in her Young Avengers run. As Stature she was the muscle alongside Hulkling, being a heavy hitter but also could double as support when she shrinks down. A very versatile member of the team giving them a good balance and options to approach battle.

[Digifiend]

I just got to read the latest Ant-Man anniversary issue with Scott and Cassie in it. My thoughts on Cassie/Stinger's role in it?

[SPOIL]It turns out Scott's not the only disrespected Lang the Avengers sort of pick on, but Cassie as well. She's surprised to hear Iron Man call her a Avenger, even though she was on the Mighty Avengers team roster before in addition to being a Young Avenger. But yeah both Lang's aren't taken seriously and Thor scoffs at her being a child not suited to handle this Pym/Ultron business. I'll remember that when Kamala Khan and Miles Morales pal around with the Avengers, or when Thor trains a kid to prepare for the Phoenix Force lol.

she at least got to grow showing that Stinger isn't just a Wasp clone.

spoilers:

Thor wasn't around when Kamala and Miles were Avengers either (he was Unworthy, so Jane Foster had replaced him as both Thor and an Avenger). Though he is the one who first asked Sam Alexander to join (his Mom wouldn't let him so he initially joined the New Warriors instead, but he later joined the team when Kamala and Miles did). Unfortunately, Cassie using the Stature powerset proves nothing. While they do it rarely, both Wasps ARE capable of growing giant. Nadia did it in her last solo issue.

end of spoilers

[Drops Of Venus]

Given how little Feige cares about making creators respect each other's continuity, I doubt the creators of WandaVision/House of Harkness will care much about contradicting Multiverse of Madness. If they go to Feige with a story that calls for Wanda getting what she was looking for in MoM, Feige might or might not approve it but it won't be because she's rewarded for her behavior in MoM.

I've already been through the stage of "surely they wouldn't be stupid enough to do a whole movie about her killing to get the kids she willingly gave up," and it turned out even worse (she just wanted copies of the kids). Creators never coordinate.

All that said, I doubt the House of Harkness version will have anything to do with the Multiverse, because WandaVision had nothing to do with the Multiverse and more importantly, in WandaVision, the kids were unambiguously portrayed as real; the fact that MoM ignored this won't really matter now that the ball has been passed back to Jac Schaeffer and she's making a sequel to her show.

How they explain it, I don't know; I'm guessing something close to Young Avengers' reincarnation thing. Whether it's the exact same kid aged up, or his soul went back in time when Wanda removed the Hex... I have no idea how they'll explain something that made no sense in the comics. But I would guess Schaeffer has her own ideas about what happened to the children after they disappeared.

I doubt the Agatha team will just disregard continuity, precisely because they took so much of it in consideration when making WandaVision. Episode 8 was a whole walkthrough of Wanda's continuity in the MCU, and even with the magic retcon, they did it in a way that was tasteful and worked within the already established continuity. So I like to think Jac will be a good enough screenwriter to make her story work with DSITMOM, even if some Wanda fans don't think the movie is worth of that.

But yes, it seems like we both can agree at least that the whole multiversal kids thing is not really necessary for this show.

I don't really see it as a reward that Wanda 'misses out' on the lives of her children. If anything it adds a layer of tragedy. Her descent in actuality was pointless, MoM only served as a vehicle to destroy the Darkhold. It'd mirror the same convoluted mess that we have in the comics, and I'm personally fine with that. She watches from a distance as her children, now grown, have lived their lives without her; in Billy's case within a loving household and Tommy seemingly abandoned without her there to protect him.

I'm not saying her missing out is the reward. I'm saying that making her be reunited with a Billy and Tommy Maximoff from another universe and treating them like family after specifically showing us in a movie that variants of her kids cannot replace what she lost would feel regressive. Even if you don't see that as a win for her, you'd have fans who grew attached to that family seeing this as win because they get to see Wanda with her kids again. I'm not sure if you'd get the ''watching from a distance'' narrative in this case, because I'm not sure if Marvel would resist the urge to please fans by giving them the ideal Maximoff Family portrayal that they know people loved from WandaVision, and that's what I have an issue with. Like I said, it's important for some things to stay permanent. So yeah, I think it's important to establish that Wanda truly lost her kids. Billy Kaplan and Tommy Shepherd can be reminders that their memory will always live on, but I think it's important to show that she will deal with her grief by moving on instead of falling back on trying to replace what she lost.

[Ibara]

I'm not saying her missing out is the reward. I'm saying that making her be reunited with a Billy and Tommy Maximoff from another universe and treating them like family after specifically showing us in a movie that variants of her kids cannot replace what she lost would feel regressive. Even if you don't see that as a win for her, you'd have fans who grew attached to that family seeing this as win because they get to see Wanda with her kids again. I'm not sure if you'd get the ''watching from a distance'' narrative in this case, because I'm not sure if Marvel would resist the urge to please fans by giving them the ideal Maximoff Family portrayal that they know people loved from WandaVision, and that's what I have an issue with. Like I said, it's important for some things to stay permanent. So yeah, I think it's important to establish that Wanda truly lost her kids. Billy Kaplan and Tommy Shepherd can be reminders that their memory will always live on, but I think it's important to show that she will deal with her grief by moving on instead of falling back on trying to replace what she lost.

I’d agree. Introducing multiversal versions of her kids would be narratively regressive and something I wouldn’t want to see. I believe following the comics ‘confusing’ retro-reincarnation line works perfectly fine, that whatever version of Billy and Tommy we get could her kids born in the past to different families.

[Drops Of Venus]

I’d agree. Introducing multiversal versions of her kids would be narratively regressive and something I wouldn’t want to see. I believe following the comics ‘confusing’ retro-reincarnation line works perfectly fine, that whatever version of Billy and Tommy we get could her kids born in the past to different families.

And honestly, the dissenting arguments about how the reincarnation is too complicated for the MCU mean very little when Wanda's whole pregnancy was the definition of complicated in the comics, and they didn't shy away from the comic book aspects of it in WandaVision. I mean, there is nothing normal or realistic about how she had kids in that show. They might as well go all out on the campness and keep following the comics. I have faith that the team behind Coven Of Chaos could do it well, since they did WandaVision too.

My personal headcanon is that before the twins died, Billy used his reality warping powers to wish for them to find their way back to their family someday, and that's why their souls ended up staying on this plane instead of crossing over to wherever magic babies go when they die.

[Harasar]

I think a better and simpler solution would be to mix two origins into one: when the Hex was dissolving, Billy felt it and cast a spell to teleport himself and Tommy away, but the Hex affected it and instead of teleporting in space the kids traveled in time to five years back, right after the Snap. The spell also backfired as they lost memories and were separated. Since it was right after the Snap the people assumed what the kids lost their family during it and the traumatic experience caused the amnesia. The kids were adopted by Kaplan and Shephard families and grew separately, but in current day they regained their memories (maybe thanks to Agatha) and now can reunite with Wanda.

[ComicNoobie]

Anybody else getting excited for October? I am because the Young Avengers Omnibus is coming out soon. I cannot wait to purchase it! So much Young Avenger goodies! If it sells well would that increase the odds of getting a volume 3? A mini maybe?

[Frontier]

Maybe the MCU can make sense of the Twins' exact status...

[Journey]

Maybe the MCU can make sense of the Twins' exact status...

What you mean as mutants?

[Frontier]

What you mean as mutants?

Well, that or their status as Wanda's kids .

[Drops Of Venus]

I think a better and simpler solution would be to mix two origins into one: when the Hex was dissolving, Billy felt it and cast a spell to teleport himself and Tommy away, but the Hex affected it and instead of teleporting in space the kids traveled in time to five years back, right after the Snap. The spell also backfired as they lost memories and were separated. Since it was right after the Snap the people assumed what the kids lost their family during it and the traumatic experience caused the amnesia. The kids were adopted by Kaplan and Shephard families and grew separately, but in current day they regained their memories (maybe thanks to Agatha) and now can reunite with Wanda.

That wouldn't be the worst compromise, but my issue with the idea that the twins survived the Hex is... where does that leave Hex Vision? Wouldn't that mean he could've been saved too? If Billy chose to save himself and his brother, why not their father? If they ever comer back and if Wanda is made aware that people created in the Hex could survive outside of it, would they try to find a way to bring that Viz back too? It raises so many questions that I prefer if they establish either the whole family survived, or no one did. And like I said, as much as I love WandaVision, I think it would be more meaningful if Wanda actually had to suffer the consequences of a real loss.

Anybody else getting excited for October? I am because the Young Avengers Omnibus is coming out soon. I cannot wait to purchase it! So much Young Avenger goodies! If it sells well would that increase the odds of getting a volume 3? A mini maybe?

I probably won't buy it, but yeah, reprints for YA comics are always a good sign. It means there's interest in the books. I won't get too excited about a potential Vol. 3 though, because YA comics were more popular than ever last year because of the MCU and Marvel did nothing to capitalize on that. Then again, it took them a very long time to give Wanda an ongoing book after her MCU boom, so who knows. Maybe the YA synergy will arrive late too.

[Harasar]

That wouldn't be the worst compromise, but my issue with the idea that the twins survived the Hex is... where does that leave Hex Vision? Wouldn't that mean he could've been saved too? If Billy chose to save himself and his brother, why not their father? If they ever comer back and if Wanda is made aware that people created in the Hex could survive outside of it, would they try to find a way to bring that Viz back too? It raises so many questions that I prefer if they establish either the whole family survived, or no one did. And like I said, as much as I love WandaVision, I think it would be more meaningful if Wanda actually had to suffer the consequences of a real loss.

Hex Vision could have been also teleported, at least his consciousness and his body was once again recreated, this time by Billy. Vision have also suffered from memory loss and became Jonas.

[Drops Of Venus]

Hex Vision could have been also teleported, at least his consciousness and his body was once again recreated, this time by Billy. Vision have also suffered from memory loss and became Jonas.

See, that's when things get messy, because I don't see them doing all that just to have two Visions in the MCU. I think it's more likely that they want Wanda to be reunited with White Vision down the line, and him regaining his humanity/emotions will be a central part of his plot. But then adding those two kids who are not his to the equation, plus another version of himself that married the woman he loved while he was dead? I just don't see how that's necessary. I think they have to make a choice: either Wanda's happy ending is with the family she made in the Hex, or it's with the man she had before all that. And I think the latter sounds like a better story right now.

[Frontier]

I mean, I can't see them reintroducing Billy and Tommy and not mining a relationship with Wanda to some extent.

[Drops Of Venus]

I mean, I can't see them reintroducing Billy and Tommy and not mining a relationship with Wanda to some extent.

I'm not saying they would do Wiccan and Speed and not acknowledge their connection to Wanda at all, but I do think that the extent of their relationship could vary depending on what set of twins they decide to adapt. Bringing back the exact same Billy and Tommy Maximoff from WandaVision would certainly put more pressure on Wanda to be their mother than if they came back reincarnated with other families. If they do Billy Kaplan and Tommy Shepherd, I think they would have more liberty to focus on their role as Young Avengers instead of just Wanda's kids, and ultimately, that's what I care about as a YA fan.

And btw, that would be good for Wanda too. After two entire productions that mostly revolved around her being a wife/mother, I think it would be nice if she could go forward in the MCU with other type of stories.