Young Avengers Appreciation 2022

[Drops Of Venus]

If he's from Westview I wonder if they're gonna with the "Billy/Tommy Maximoff replace/possess/whatever Billy Kaplan and Shepherd" idea instead of retro reincarnation?

I really dislike the possession theory. I think on top of being a bit creepy, it kinda diminishes their connection to Wanda. Because then they're not her reincarnated children anymore, but just two random kids who end up possessed by them. I think there is something more poetic about Billy and Tommy being destined to be reborn as opposed to just breaking in the body of the first two kids they see. Not to mention that it raises a lot of questions about consent, like... did their consciousness get rewritten after they got ''possessed''? Are they even the same people as they were before? Are the Minimoffs controlling them like puppets? I think it becomes even more problematic when you think about the fact that Billy and Tommy Maximoff's origins in the MCU were directly related to the Hex, which also took people's free will. I would prefer if they didn't go there.

[Journey]

I really dislike the possession theory. I think on top of being a bit creepy, it kinda diminishes their connection to Wanda. Because then they're not her reincarnated children anymore, but just two random kids who end up possessed by them. I think there is something more poetic about Billy and Tommy being destined to be reborn as opposed to just breaking in the body of the first two kids they see. Not to mention that it raises a lot of questions about consent, like... did their consciousness get rewritten after they got ''possessed''? Are they even the same people as they were before? Are the Minimoffs controlling them like puppets? I think it becomes even more problematic when you think about the fact that Billy and Tommy Maximoff's origins in the MCU were directly related to the Hex, which also took people's free will. I would prefer if they didn't go there.

I don’t think it diminishes the relationship to Wanda at all actively possession would make it so they are the exact same kids if anything it makes the relationships with the Kaplans seem kinda murderey & diminishes that to a large extent some may be pushed by that some may not it just depends

I stand by the fact tho that Joe Locke looks nothing like Julian Hilliard

[Drops Of Venus]

I don’t think it diminishes the relationship to Wanda at all actively possession would make it so they are the exact same kids if anything it makes the relationships with the Kaplans seem kinda murderey & diminishes that to a large extent some may be pushed by that some may not it just depends

I stand by the fact tho that Joe Locke looks nothing like Julian Hilliard

The way that I see it, possession makes the Minimoffs look like ''murderers'', if anything. 'Cause they would've been the ones overwriting the lives of two innocent kids just so they could live. Possession also implies that Billy Kaplan is just a child inside the body of an older person in a Shazam type of way, which has some even worse implications about his relationship with Teddy, so yeah, I prefer if they stay far away from this. Plus, in the comics at least, reincarnation just makes more sense since Billy and Tommy were born looking like twins, which obviously implies whatever magic happened to their souls was there from inception.

[Wiccan]

It's indeed pretty creepy and fucked up, I feel like they probably just added that possibility in that Scarlet Witch issue because it was all about Wanda feeling depressed and somewhat guilty over the whole situation. But the thing is that in the comics, people kinda just accepted the reincarnation plot because, in real time, it made sense for Wanda's kids to be teenagers. AFAIK in the original run they never bring it up that "Wait, how are we reincarnated toddlers if we're teenagers now?", it was only years laters. In the MCU where WandaVision just aired a couple years ago people are gonna be questioning it a lot more. I feel like they're gonna need to add some explanation.

[Ibara]

Retroreincarnation. It's already in the comics 'lore' and it's not really confusing. We have time-travel, we have alternate universes, magic, 'magic'-tech; people who will overthink and complicate the matter will do so regardless. I'd rather not weigh down their story with unnecessary moral baggage - having the twins essentially off some innocent souls in some kind of parent trap tragedy is just messy and ugly in a different sense. Their souls went back in time and reincarnated - it helps explain why she couldn't find them as they were reborn and aren't little boys as she remembers them. Plus this makes them teenagers that have actually lived some 16 odd years and not some hyper-aged magical constructs whose souls have now superimposed on some random teens - remember the Hex boys are actually only like a week old.

[Wiccan]

Yeah, as I started thinking about it I didn't want them to just age to teenagers with the power like in WV. Before WandaVision started airing, I thought that time inside the hex would pass differently and would actually feel like decades, and they'd just age according to the decades instead of normally, so they would live more instead of less. I think they still could have done this from 10 to teens in another dimension or something, but they wasted that chance in MOM, so reincarnation is the only (or at least the best) choice.

[ARkadelphia]

Okay and your point?

No reason to get annoyed

[Sutekh]

The way that I see it, possession makes the Minimoffs look like ''murderers'', if anything. 'Cause they would've been the ones overwriting the lives of two innocent kids just so they could live. Possession also implies that Billy Kaplan is just a child inside the body of an older person in a Shazam type of way, which has some even worse implications about his relationship with Teddy, so yeah, I prefer if they stay far away from this. Plus, in the comics at least, reincarnation just makes more sense since Billy and Tommy were born looking like twins, which obviously implies whatever magic happened to their souls was there from inception.

And given the nature of their powers, Billy would get the blame as well for these child-murders, since Tommy clearly couldn't have done it. (Or maybe it would be yet another thing they'd pin on Wanda...)

The souls travelling back in time to 'be the right age when they grew up' and merging with the bodies of two fetuses that had failed to conceive (as something like 70% of fertilized cells do) and jump-starting them to life, might work for the comics without erasing any actual living people.

But for the MCU, who knows. The Multiverse is a thing, and surely in infinite universes, there's gonna be one where the Minimoffs are teens (and don't have a living Wanda to object to them leaving).

[Journey]

No reason to get annoyed

I’m not I had a question.

[ARkadelphia]

I’m not I had a question.

No. I meant that in your original ist you responded to you indicated that you were annoyed that issue 2 of the solo series was going to feature Viv and not Billy/Tommy. My only point was that there was no need to be annoyed since there is plenty of time for them to feature since it’s only issue 2 of an ongoing.

[Drops Of Venus]

It's indeed pretty creepy and fucked up, I feel like they probably just added that possibility in that Scarlet Witch issue because it was all about Wanda feeling depressed and somewhat guilty over the whole situation. But the thing is that in the comics, people kinda just accepted the reincarnation plot because, in real time, it made sense for Wanda's kids to be teenagers. AFAIK in the original run they never bring it up that "Wait, how are we reincarnated toddlers if we're teenagers now?", it was only years laters. In the MCU where WandaVision just aired a couple years ago people are gonna be questioning it a lot more. I feel like they're gonna need to add some explanation.

Yeah, I definitely think Allan Heinberg wasn't thinking of the sliding timescale when he wrote Young Avengers. Not only that would explain Billy and Tommy's origins, but also Teddy's, which dates him back to the Kree/Skrull War. The MCU will definitely have to offer a more clear explanation for them being older, but I feel like they were already testing the waters with this on WandaVision. The audience already knows the age of the twins is inconsistent, so I think seeing another version of Billy being older will feel less weird when it happens. With time travel already established in the MCU, they have all the tools to do the retroreincarnation plot.

Plus this makes them teenagers that have actually lived some 16 odd years and not some hyper-aged magical constructs whose souls have now superimposed on some random teens - remember the Hex boys are actually only like a week old.

Yeah, as I started thinking about it I didn't want them to just age to teenagers with the power like in WV. Before WandaVision started airing, I thought that time inside the hex would pass differently and would actually feel like decades, and they'd just age according to the decades instead of normally, so they would live more instead of less. I think they still could have done this from 10 to teens in another dimension or something, but they wasted that chance in MOM, so reincarnation is the only (or at least the best) choice.

I'm not a fan of the unnatural, accelerated aging either. On top of being really weird when it comes to exploring their sexuality, I feel like it robs them of so much character development. So much of what made Billy be Billy was because of his experiences growing up. Being the jewish kid from a normal human family, being the underdog kid in school who was bullied for being gay, being the nerdy kid who grew up watching the Avengers and became their fanboy. You suddenly don't have any of those experiences if Billy is a baby one day, then 18 the next, living inside of a bubble with no contact with the outside world. And if you do, they're just watered down/rushed, and it doesn't feel as organic.

[Journey]

No. I meant that in your original ist you responded to you indicated that you were annoyed that issue 2 of the solo series was going to feature Viv and not Billy/Tommy. My only point was that there was no need to be annoyed since there is plenty of time for them to feature since it’s only issue 2 of an ongoing.

That doesn’t matter to me my issue is it’s been this way for years with that relationship being ignored just cause that may change soon doesn’t do away with my irritation.

[Drops Of Venus]

Covers for Love Unlimited: Hulkling & Wiccan. Part 1 available this Thursday, the 24th, on Marvel Unlimited.



I'm holding out hope that this book will have a deep philosophical discussion about the repercussions of Billy creating life with his powers, but those covers are really just giving love triangle drama, which is kinda meh to me. Let's hope it's good, though!

[Sutekh]

I'm not a fan of the unnatural, accelerated aging either. On top of being really weird when it comes to exploring their sexuality, I feel like it robs them of so much character development.

There is the 'I don't want to think too hard about this' nature of Billy (and Tommy!) having dealing with puberty and relationships and sex, when, mentally, he's like, a few months old...

Plus the notion that Billy is the source of Billy and Tommy's rapid maturation, which feels like it robs Tommy of agency (even if we clearly see him agreeing to age up to get a puppy, which has to be the most unique explanation of the 'suddenly I have a teenage son and skipped the whole diaper / toddler / little league phase' I've seen in a comic book!).

But, it is what it is. I can tolerate a wobbly take off, if they find their footing and tell a darn good story afterwards!

[Journey]

There is the 'I don't want to think too hard about this' nature of Billy (and Tommy!) having dealing with puberty and relationships and sex, when, mentally, he's like, a few months old...

Plus the notion that Billy is the source of Billy and Tommy's rapid maturation, which feels like it robs Tommy of agency (even if we clearly see him agreeing to age up to get a puppy, which has to be the most unique explanation of the 'suddenly I have a teenage son and skipped the whole diaper / toddler / little league phase' I've seen in a comic book!).

But, it is what it is. I can tolerate a wobbly take off, if they find their footing and tell a darn good story afterwards!

I kind of interpreted that the aging up was a combination of both their powers Tommy controlling the time while Billy makes it a reality.