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  1. #256
    Incredible Member OOTCS's Avatar
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    I think Natasha's history with the Avengers goes like this, based both on what I've read and what I've seen on the Fandom wiki:

    After her initial relationship with Hawkeye, her handlers brainwashed her, she fought the Avengers, then she broke through the brainwashing and decided to become a civilian and Hawkeye's girlfriend. He wanted her to become an Avenger, but she was kind of meh on it, and then she was temporarily involved with SHIELD, and then she wanted to be a civilian again, and then she decided she wanted to strike off on her own. (Avengers #29-64)

    Soon afterwards, Enchantress posing as Valkyrie put together a team of women called the Lady Liberators, supposedly as an anti-sexist version of the Avengers, and Natasha is one of the women included. "Valkyrie" persuaded her to join by reminding her about how the Avengers wouldn't let her join, but it's a bit of a stretch, because I think the Avengers would have let her join if she really wanted to, but she wasn't really into it at the time. (Avengers #76)

    Then Natasha settles into her own identity as a superhero, dates Daredevil, and builds a new life in San Francisco. After the Scarlet Witch rejects him as a romantic interest, Hawkeye quits the Avengers and goes to confront Natasha over her breaking up with him. While he's there, the Avengers also approach Black Widow and Daredevil and ask them to join the team. They join for a single adventure and Daredevil turns down the invitation, but Black Widow decides to stay. This is her first stint as an Avenger, but she leaves after a single issue because she decides she wants to make things work with Matt. (Avengers #111-112)

    Eventually, Natasha and Daredevil break up, and she joins the Champions. As a Champion, I think she teams up with the Avengers a few times (Avengers #151, 163, 173-177)

    Over the years, Natasha shows up a couple of times when the Avengers are reorganizing their roster, but she doesn't actually join the team. (Avengers #181, 211, 221) In the last example of this, she thinks something along the lines of, "I should really get coffee with Hawkeye sometime!" And he thinks, "Every time I see her, my old feelings resurface!" But they don't actually interact or get that coffee.

    In Avengers #239, the active roster is away in a mission but Wonder Man snagged a Letterman interview for the Avengers, so they call up a bunch of former members, including Natasha, to go on the show. This issue is also Hawkeye and Mockingbird's debut as a couple after having gotten married in the Hawkeye miniseries.

    Natasha teams up with the Avengers again (East and West Coast branches this time!) in West Coast Avengers Annual #1, to help the teams figure out which former Avenger has been spreading lies about them to the US government. (Spoilers: It's Quicksilver. He's mad at the Avengers because Crystal cheated on him with Wanda and Vision's realtor.)

    Black Widow finally joins the lineup for an extended time starting in Avengers #329, and she sticks with the team and even ends up leading the team until the Onslaught Saga that ends the book with issue #402. She's not "killed" with the rest of the Avengers, which gives her heavy survivor's guilt.

    When the Avengers come back, she declines membership, but teams up with them and the Thunderbolts at least once during a crossover arc. This is circa-2000.

    Later, after Disassembled, House of M, and Civil War, in 2007, she joins the pro-registration Avengers (which I still maintain was out of character for her, but to be fair, it was also out of character for most of the other pro-reg heroes) called the Mighty Avengers. This team disbands after Secret Invasion.

    During the Heroic Age, she's part of Steve Rogers's Secret Avengers, which is not officially an Avengers team so much as a Black Ops team with a bunch of Avengers on the roster.

    Then, in the real world, the MCU Avengers movie comes out in 2012. There's a matching 616 series called Avengers Assmble, which includes her and the other MCU "O6", and a year later, she's part of the cast of Hickman's Avengers. From that point on, Natasha has been on the Avengers quite a lot and is now considered by most to be an iconic Avenger rather than a street-level hero.

  2. #257
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Actually, no, Natasha only remained an Avenger until Secret Wars (i.e. when Hickman's run ended), the movies didn't make her a mainstay at all. She wasn't on Waid's two rosters (which were Iron Man, SamCap, SamNova, JaneThor, Kamala Khan, Vision and Miles Morales, and then SamCap/Falcon, JaneThor, Vision, Hercules, Peter Parker and Unstoppable Wasp), nor in any of the other Avengers books at that time (New Avengers, Uncanny Avengers, U.S.Avengers, Occupy Avengers), and has only briefly worked with Aaron's team.
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  3. #258
    Incredible Member OOTCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Actually, no, Natasha only remained an Avenger until Secret Wars (i.e. when Hickman's run ended), the movies didn't make her a mainstay at all. She wasn't on Waid's two rosters (which were Iron Man, SamCap, SamNova, JaneThor, Kamala Khan, Vision and Miles Morales, and then SamCap/Falcon, JaneThor, Vision, Hercules, Peter Parker and Unstoppable Wasp), nor in any of the other Avengers books at that time (New Avengers, Uncanny Avengers, U.S.Avengers, Occupy Avengers), and has only briefly worked with Aaron's team.
    Well, Secret Wars was only seven years ago (I guess that's a long time, but it feels like it wasn't). And she has been on Aaron's roster—not for most of the run, but considering how little that roster has been switched up since it started, it's significantly more than other former Avengers. Plus she's been in Savage Avengers, although I don't think that team calls itself Avengers in-universe. She was also in that Avengers Millennium book that also had a roster heavily based on the MCU.

    Maybe mainstay is the wrong word to use, but she's definitely been an Avenger for a higher percentage of her 2012-present career than she was from 1964-2011; that's what I meant to say.

  4. #259
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOTCS View Post
    I think Natasha's history with the Avengers goes like this, based both on what I've read and what I've seen on the Fandom wiki:

    After her initial relationship with Hawkeye, her handlers brainwashed her, she fought the Avengers, then she broke through the brainwashing and decided to become a civilian and Hawkeye's girlfriend. He wanted her to become an Avenger, but she was kind of meh on it, and then she was temporarily involved with SHIELD, and then she wanted to be a civilian again, and then she decided she wanted to strike off on her own. (Avengers #29-64)

    Soon afterwards, Enchantress posing as Valkyrie put together a team of women called the Lady Liberators, supposedly as an anti-sexist version of the Avengers, and Natasha is one of the women included. "Valkyrie" persuaded her to join by reminding her about how the Avengers wouldn't let her join, but it's a bit of a stretch, because I think the Avengers would have let her join if she really wanted to, but she wasn't really into it at the time. (Avengers #76)

    Then Natasha settles into her own identity as a superhero, dates Daredevil, and builds a new life in San Francisco. After the Scarlet Witch rejects him as a romantic interest, Hawkeye quits the Avengers and goes to confront Natasha over her breaking up with him. While he's there, the Avengers also approach Black Widow and Daredevil and ask them to join the team. They join for a single adventure and Daredevil turns down the invitation, but Black Widow decides to stay. This is her first stint as an Avenger, but she leaves after a single issue because she decides she wants to make things work with Matt. (Avengers #111-112)

    Eventually, Natasha and Daredevil break up, and she joins the Champions. As a Champion, I think she teams up with the Avengers a few times (Avengers #151, 163, 173-177)

    Over the years, Natasha shows up a couple of times when the Avengers are reorganizing their roster, but she doesn't actually join the team. (Avengers #181, 211, 221) In the last example of this, she thinks something along the lines of, "I should really get coffee with Hawkeye sometime!" And he thinks, "Every time I see her, my old feelings resurface!" But they don't actually interact or get that coffee.

    In Avengers #239, the active roster is away in a mission but Wonder Man snagged a Letterman interview for the Avengers, so they call up a bunch of former members, including Natasha, to go on the show. This issue is also Hawkeye and Mockingbird's debut as a couple after having gotten married in the Hawkeye miniseries.

    Natasha teams up with the Avengers again (East and West Coast branches this time!) in West Coast Avengers Annual #1, to help the teams figure out which former Avenger has been spreading lies about them to the US government. (Spoilers: It's Quicksilver. He's mad at the Avengers because Crystal cheated on him with Wanda and Vision's realtor.)

    Black Widow finally joins the lineup for an extended time starting in Avengers #329, and she sticks with the team and even ends up leading the team until the Onslaught Saga that ends the book with issue #402. She's not "killed" with the rest of the Avengers, which gives her heavy survivor's guilt.

    When the Avengers come back, she declines membership, but teams up with them and the Thunderbolts at least once during a crossover arc. This is circa-2000.

    Later, after Disassembled, House of M, and Civil War, in 2007, she joins the pro-registration Avengers (which I still maintain was out of character for her, but to be fair, it was also out of character for most of the other pro-reg heroes) called the Mighty Avengers. This team disbands after Secret Invasion.

    During the Heroic Age, she's part of Steve Rogers's Secret Avengers, which is not officially an Avengers team so much as a Black Ops team with a bunch of Avengers on the roster.

    Then, in the real world, the MCU Avengers movie comes out in 2012. There's a matching 616 series called Avengers Assmble, which includes her and the other MCU "O6", and a year later, she's part of the cast of Hickman's Avengers. From that point on, Natasha has been on the Avengers quite a lot and is now considered by most to be an iconic Avenger rather than a street-level hero.
    Damn, they really all acted liked hormonal teenagers in telenovelas back in the day which is precisely one of the reasons why I have trouble reading the classics.

    Oh well: I think what's more with Natasha's perception as an Avenger mainstay these days is that that what she is in basically every other media now while she insists on going back to tackling red room agents and allegations against her person alone, having to relearn to rely on people every 5 minutes or so in most comics.
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  5. #260
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    If I remember right with Aaron's run, Doctor Strange did an arc, Natasha replaced him for an arc, then Blade came replaced her and he's been on the team ever since.

    You're right about other media, the Avengers Assemble cartoon of course originally used the movie roster plus a younger Falcon, and the Avengers game likewise uses the movie roster plus Ms. Marvel.
    Last edited by Digifiend; 06-30-2022 at 07:35 AM.
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  6. #261
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOTCS View Post
    I think Natasha's history with the Avengers goes like this, based both on what I've read and what I've seen on the Fandom wiki:

    After her initial relationship with Hawkeye, her handlers brainwashed her, she fought the Avengers, then she broke through the brainwashing and decided to become a civilian and Hawkeye's girlfriend. He wanted her to become an Avenger, but she was kind of meh on it, and then she was temporarily involved with SHIELD, and then she wanted to be a civilian again, and then she decided she wanted to strike off on her own. (Avengers #29-64)

    Soon afterwards, Enchantress posing as Valkyrie put together a team of women called the Lady Liberators, supposedly as an anti-sexist version of the Avengers, and Natasha is one of the women included. "Valkyrie" persuaded her to join by reminding her about how the Avengers wouldn't let her join, but it's a bit of a stretch, because I think the Avengers would have let her join if she really wanted to, but she wasn't really into it at the time. (Avengers #76)

    Then Natasha settles into her own identity as a superhero, dates Daredevil, and builds a new life in San Francisco. After the Scarlet Witch rejects him as a romantic interest, Hawkeye quits the Avengers and goes to confront Natasha over her breaking up with him. While he's there, the Avengers also approach Black Widow and Daredevil and ask them to join the team. They join for a single adventure and Daredevil turns down the invitation, but Black Widow decides to stay. This is her first stint as an Avenger, but she leaves after a single issue because she decides she wants to make things work with Matt. (Avengers #111-112)

    Eventually, Natasha and Daredevil break up, and she joins the Champions. As a Champion, I think she teams up with the Avengers a few times (Avengers #151, 163, 173-177)

    Over the years, Natasha shows up a couple of times when the Avengers are reorganizing their roster, but she doesn't actually join the team. (Avengers #181, 211, 221) In the last example of this, she thinks something along the lines of, "I should really get coffee with Hawkeye sometime!" And he thinks, "Every time I see her, my old feelings resurface!" But they don't actually interact or get that coffee.

    In Avengers #239, the active roster is away in a mission but Wonder Man snagged a Letterman interview for the Avengers, so they call up a bunch of former members, including Natasha, to go on the show. This issue is also Hawkeye and Mockingbird's debut as a couple after having gotten married in the Hawkeye miniseries.

    Natasha teams up with the Avengers again (East and West Coast branches this time!) in West Coast Avengers Annual #1, to help the teams figure out which former Avenger has been spreading lies about them to the US government. (Spoilers: It's Quicksilver. He's mad at the Avengers because Crystal cheated on him with Wanda and Vision's realtor.)

    Black Widow finally joins the lineup for an extended time starting in Avengers #329, and she sticks with the team and even ends up leading the team until the Onslaught Saga that ends the book with issue #402. She's not "killed" with the rest of the Avengers, which gives her heavy survivor's guilt.

    When the Avengers come back, she declines membership, but teams up with them and the Thunderbolts at least once during a crossover arc. This is circa-2000.

    Later, after Disassembled, House of M, and Civil War, in 2007, she joins the pro-registration Avengers (which I still maintain was out of character for her, but to be fair, it was also out of character for most of the other pro-reg heroes) called the Mighty Avengers. This team disbands after Secret Invasion.

    During the Heroic Age, she's part of Steve Rogers's Secret Avengers, which is not officially an Avengers team so much as a Black Ops team with a bunch of Avengers on the roster.

    Then, in the real world, the MCU Avengers movie comes out in 2012. There's a matching 616 series called Avengers Assmble, which includes her and the other MCU "O6", and a year later, she's part of the cast of Hickman's Avengers. From that point on, Natasha has been on the Avengers quite a lot and is now considered by most to be an iconic Avenger rather than a street-level hero.
    Well, this post deserves all the respect. Thanks a lot. I didn't know a significant fraction of it.
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  7. #262
    Incredible Member chicago_bastard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcekada View Post
    Ah, you beat me to the punch. The artwork in that story is by Bob Brown and Klaus Janson. Janson always elevated the works of guys like Brown and Sal Buscema who were very good storytellers, but didn't always produce the most showy of artwork.
    I agree with you on Brown and Sal Buscema, although I would use even harsher words to describe their artwork. Such a pity, the Nancy Rushman story in Marvel Team-up was so good but the art just doesn't hold up to it. Would have been great if Colan pencilled that, but his stellar art was mostly wasted for the meh stories in Daredevil. Sigh.
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  8. #263
    Incredible Member chicago_bastard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOTCS View Post
    I think Natasha's history with the Avengers goes like this, based both on what I've read and what I've seen on the Fandom wiki:

    After her initial relationship with Hawkeye, her handlers brainwashed her, she fought the Avengers, then she broke through the brainwashing and decided to become a civilian and Hawkeye's girlfriend. He wanted her to become an Avenger, but she was kind of meh on it, and then she was temporarily involved with SHIELD, and then she wanted to be a civilian again, and then she decided she wanted to strike off on her own. (Avengers #29-64)

    Soon afterwards, Enchantress posing as Valkyrie put together a team of women called the Lady Liberators, supposedly as an anti-sexist version of the Avengers, and Natasha is one of the women included. "Valkyrie" persuaded her to join by reminding her about how the Avengers wouldn't let her join, but it's a bit of a stretch, because I think the Avengers would have let her join if she really wanted to, but she wasn't really into it at the time. (Avengers #76)
    The Avengers did reject her, or better said Hank the Hypocrite did, because in his eyes it was somehow beneath a team that had accepted criminals and members of a terrorist brotherhood to take in an ex-commie.

    I remember that because it is part of the only Silver Age story of Natasha that I like. After her rejection it goes something like this:

    Some Alien Guy has taken all the Avengers down and is threatening to destroy the world. Nat and Arrow Guy are the last ones standing. Clint threatens him but just gets laughed off because Alien Guy knows that A) he took an oath not to kill and B) he's a softie (okay, maybe I made that second one up because I thought it's funny^^).

    Then Nat steps in, aims her Widow's Bite at Alien Guy and tells him that she has no problem at all to kill him and Alien Guy swiftly makes his withdrawal, knowing she isn't bluffing. So the just-rejected not-Avenger saved the world single-handedly. I think then the Avengers wanted to decide again on Nat's membership but Fury stepped in and Nat went on a SHIELD mission instead, so maybe that's why you thought she wasn't interested in the membership.
    Last edited by chicago_bastard; 06-30-2022 at 10:54 AM.
    Tolstoy will live forever. Some people do. But that's not enough. It's not the length of a life that matters, just the depth of it. The chances we take. The paths we choose. How we go on when our hearts break. Hearts always break and so we bend with our hearts. And we sway. But in the end what matters is that we loved... and lived.

  9. #264
    Incredible Member OOTCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicago_bastard View Post
    The Avengers did reject her, or better said Hank the Hypocrite did, because in his eyes it was somehow beneath a team that had accepted criminals and members of a terrorist brotherhood to take in an ex-commie.

    I remember that because it is part of the only Silver Age story of Natasha that I like. After her rejection it goes something like this:

    Some Alien Guy has taken all the Avengers down and is threatening to destroy the world. Nat and Arrow Guy are the last ones standing. Clint threatens him but just gets laughed off because Alien Guy knows that A) he took an oath not to kill and B) he's a softie (okay, maybe I made that second one up because I thought it's funny^^).

    Then Nat steps in, aims her Widow's Bite at Alien Guy and tells him that she has no problem at all to kill him and Alien Guy swiftly makes his withdrawal, knowing she isn't bluffing. So the just-rejected not-Avenger saved the world single-handedly. I think then the Avengers wanted to decide again on Nat's membership but Fury stepped in and Nat went on a SHIELD mission instead, so maybe that's why you thought she wasn't interested in the membership.
    Right, Hank didn't want her to join the Avengers, but it didn't seem to be like a final decision had been made. It might have just been my interpretation that she wasn't interested, since Hawkeye was the one pushing for it and I don't remember her being enthusiastic about the idea, but she could have just been nervous about it (or maybe I'm remembering wrong). I do think that the fact that she ended up going solo for a long time before officially joining the Avengers is important—after so long following her handlers' orders, it was very important for her to find herself independently before she could be part of a group again.

  10. #265
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOTCS View Post
    I think Natasha's history with the Avengers goes like this, based both on what I've read and what I've seen on the Fandom wiki:

    After her initial relationship with Hawkeye, her handlers brainwashed her, she fought the Avengers, then she broke through the brainwashing and decided to become a civilian and Hawkeye's girlfriend. He wanted her to become an Avenger, but she was kind of meh on it, and then she was temporarily involved with SHIELD, and then she wanted to be a civilian again, and then she decided she wanted to strike off on her own. (Avengers #29-64)

    Soon afterwards, Enchantress posing as Valkyrie put together a team of women called the Lady Liberators, supposedly as an anti-sexist version of the Avengers, and Natasha is one of the women included. "Valkyrie" persuaded her to join by reminding her about how the Avengers wouldn't let her join, but it's a bit of a stretch, because I think the Avengers would have let her join if she really wanted to, but she wasn't really into it at the time. (Avengers #76)

    Then Natasha settles into her own identity as a superhero, dates Daredevil, and builds a new life in San Francisco. After the Scarlet Witch rejects him as a romantic interest, Hawkeye quits the Avengers and goes to confront Natasha over her breaking up with him. While he's there, the Avengers also approach Black Widow and Daredevil and ask them to join the team. They join for a single adventure and Daredevil turns down the invitation, but Black Widow decides to stay. This is her first stint as an Avenger, but she leaves after a single issue because she decides she wants to make things work with Matt. (Avengers #111-112)

    Eventually, Natasha and Daredevil break up, and she joins the Champions. As a Champion, I think she teams up with the Avengers a few times (Avengers #151, 163, 173-177)

    Over the years, Natasha shows up a couple of times when the Avengers are reorganizing their roster, but she doesn't actually join the team. (Avengers #181, 211, 221) In the last example of this, she thinks something along the lines of, "I should really get coffee with Hawkeye sometime!" And he thinks, "Every time I see her, my old feelings resurface!" But they don't actually interact or get that coffee.

    In Avengers #239, the active roster is away in a mission but Wonder Man snagged a Letterman interview for the Avengers, so they call up a bunch of former members, including Natasha, to go on the show. This issue is also Hawkeye and Mockingbird's debut as a couple after having gotten married in the Hawkeye miniseries.

    Natasha teams up with the Avengers again (East and West Coast branches this time!) in West Coast Avengers Annual #1, to help the teams figure out which former Avenger has been spreading lies about them to the US government. (Spoilers: It's Quicksilver. He's mad at the Avengers because Crystal cheated on him with Wanda and Vision's realtor.)

    Black Widow finally joins the lineup for an extended time starting in Avengers #329, and she sticks with the team and even ends up leading the team until the Onslaught Saga that ends the book with issue #402. She's not "killed" with the rest of the Avengers, which gives her heavy survivor's guilt.

    When the Avengers come back, she declines membership, but teams up with them and the Thunderbolts at least once during a crossover arc. This is circa-2000.

    Later, after Disassembled, House of M, and Civil War, in 2007, she joins the pro-registration Avengers (which I still maintain was out of character for her, but to be fair, it was also out of character for most of the other pro-reg heroes) called the Mighty Avengers. This team disbands after Secret Invasion.

    During the Heroic Age, she's part of Steve Rogers's Secret Avengers, which is not officially an Avengers team so much as a Black Ops team with a bunch of Avengers on the roster.

    Then, in the real world, the MCU Avengers movie comes out in 2012. There's a matching 616 series called Avengers Assmble, which includes her and the other MCU "O6", and a year later, she's part of the cast of Hickman's Avengers. From that point on, Natasha has been on the Avengers quite a lot and is now considered by most to be an iconic Avenger rather than a street-level hero.
    I liked the early Widow years and her changing back-and-forth from the Soviets to the USA, her costume changes, hair changes, personality changes, etc.

    Natasha fit in well with the Lady Liberators and even teamed up with The Wasp to take down Black Panther. None of the ladies ever called her the weakest or that she was the only one with no true powers.

    I hated that Natasha left after only 1 Avengers issue! I always wondered if it was because Mantis was set to appear in the next issue or not? I always wanted to see Black Widow and Mantis fight/fight alongside each other, but alas, we never got that.

    I think Natasha fit in well with many different Avengers teams, like even the time with Korvac.
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  11. #266
    Incredible Member chicago_bastard's Avatar
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    With the talk about Nat being an Avengers mainstay or not, where would you all rank her if you made a list of the most iconic Avengers? Does she make the top ten? Strictly 616 that is, so ignoring all other media.
    Tolstoy will live forever. Some people do. But that's not enough. It's not the length of a life that matters, just the depth of it. The chances we take. The paths we choose. How we go on when our hearts break. Hearts always break and so we bend with our hearts. And we sway. But in the end what matters is that we loved... and lived.

  12. #267
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicago_bastard View Post
    With the talk about Nat being an Avengers mainstay or not, where would you all rank her if you made a list of the most iconic Avengers? Does she make the top ten? Strictly 616 that is, so ignoring all other media.
    Yeah, for me, I would put Natasha in the top 10.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


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  13. #268
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicago_bastard View Post
    With the talk about Nat being an Avengers mainstay or not, where would you all rank her if you made a list of the most iconic Avengers? Does she make the top ten? Strictly 616 that is, so ignoring all other media.
    I think she'd maybe make my top 20 if we're talking 616.

  14. #269
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Yeah, the top 10 would probably be Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Wasp, Hank Pym, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Vision, Hawkeye, and Carol Danvers. And that 10th slot is the only one that isn't a no-brainer.
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  15. #270
    Incredible Member chicago_bastard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Yeah, the top 10 would probably be Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Wasp, Hank Pym, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Vision, Hawkeye, and Carol Danvers. And that 10th slot is the only one that isn't a no-brainer.
    I'd say putting Pietro above her is debatable. Maybe people think of him as a package with Wanda and that he therefore was always around when she was but I'm pretty sure that Wanda had long stints on the team without him.

    Edit: Just found this list of the heroes with the most appearances in Avengers books: https://whatculture.com/comics/top-1...rs-appearances

    Black Widow is #10. Of the ten names you mentioned Pietro and Carol are missing, instead of them Nat and Wonder Man made the cut. That article is from 2014 though, but I'm pretty sure that Pietro didn't close the gap to Natasha in the meantime. Carol maybe did but that's hard to tell without knowing by how many issues Nat was leading in 2014.

    Of course the sole number of appearances doesn't tell the whole story and there are other things to consider but I don't see many other arguments to be made for Pietro's case to put him over Natasha, but you are invited to elaborate on that.
    Last edited by chicago_bastard; 07-02-2022 at 12:54 PM.
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