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  1. #16
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I didn't know Natasha hated Florida, but okay .
    Still convinced that's not Nat anyway. It's gotta be Yelena.
    Same for the separate but similar Wastelander podcast black widow.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

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  2. #17
    Incredible Member chicago_bastard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    Still convinced that's not Nat anyway. It's gotta be Yelena.
    Same for the separate but similar Wastelander podcast black widow.
    Oh these aren't connected? I got a bit confused with the Wastelander stuff.
    Tolstoy will live forever. Some people do. But that's not enough. It's not the length of a life that matters, just the depth of it. The chances we take. The paths we choose. How we go on when our hearts break. Hearts always break and so we bend with our hearts. And we sway. But in the end what matters is that we loved... and lived.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    Still convinced that's not Nat anyway. It's gotta be Yelena.
    Same for the separate but similar Wastelander podcast black widow.
    That's what I'm thinking...shouldn't Nat's SSS keep her looking young?

  4. #19
    Incredible Member chicago_bastard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    That's what I'm thinking...shouldn't Nat's SSS keep her looking young?
    It slows her aging down but doesn't stop it, so if she gets 200 years old she wouldn't be looking like a 30 year old anymore. Don't know when these Wastelander stories are set though.

    That said I also wouldn't be surprised if it turned out it isn't Nat.
    Tolstoy will live forever. Some people do. But that's not enough. It's not the length of a life that matters, just the depth of it. The chances we take. The paths we choose. How we go on when our hearts break. Hearts always break and so we bend with our hearts. And we sway. But in the end what matters is that we loved... and lived.

  5. #20
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicago_bastard View Post
    Oh these aren't connected? I got a bit confused with the Wastelander stuff.
    If it's anything like the Old Man Hawkeye podcast then no, they aren't actually connected beyond sharing some promo art.
    They don't really tell you that outright but it becomes clear quickly.
    However Nat is very much considered dead in both cases.
    Only what happens after the last day of the heroes differs so far.
    I admittedly haven't listened to the initial Old Man quill audio drama so I don't know whether these stories are supposed to be set in the same universe or whether each of those stories has its own reality in which case I suppose Nat's survival is possible but unlikely.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

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  6. #21
    Incredible Member OOTCS's Avatar
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    Wastelanders spoilers:

    spoilers:
    As I suspected, Old Lady Widow is Yelena, not Nat, in both the podcast and the comic. (I appreciate the fact that they were released on the same week, so that the mystery wasn't spoiled too far in advance of either one coming out.) The comic was true to Yelena's less-heroic-than-Nat personality; jury's still out as far as the podcast goes. But even though Natasha isn't around in the comic, her presence is very much felt.
    end of spoilers

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Galerion's Avatar
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    I found it decent. It's an alternate universe story of course and a one-shot on top of that but I honestly think it has some potential. I wonder if Marvel is testing the waters with these books to see if it is worth to dig even deeper into the Wasteland universe.

    Started to read some older stuff again beginning with the Edmondson/Noto run and I have finished the first Volume. I must say I really enjoyed it too. Started out pretty strong but if I remember correctly it begins to drag a bit later on.

  8. #23
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Not sure "drag" is the word I'd use but it feels it becomes a little less focused for a while.
    It's probably still my favourite singles run of Nat.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

    Matt's Stuff [Blog]: Star Wars Visions: Ranked
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  9. #24
    Incredible Member chicago_bastard's Avatar
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    I usually don't recommend YouTube videos but this isn't your usual guys whose only credential is having a webcam and space in their parents' basement stuff, so if one has 30 minutes to spare:

    Tolstoy will live forever. Some people do. But that's not enough. It's not the length of a life that matters, just the depth of it. The chances we take. The paths we choose. How we go on when our hearts break. Hearts always break and so we bend with our hearts. And we sway. But in the end what matters is that we loved... and lived.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Galerion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    Not sure "drag" is the word I'd use but it feels it becomes a little less focused for a while.
    It's probably still my favourite singles run of Nat.
    You are right. It was probably a bit too harsh. I only remembered the Chaos stuff going on for a long time and I was right about. It was also not truly resolved but it was a fun adventure throughout anyway now that I have completed my reading.


    Now to a different topic. A comment on Reddit recently said that Tony Stark is the closets thing to an anti-hero the MCU has or had rather. He is a douche and has quite a few other negative character traits and that is pretty accurate to how he is in the comics too.
    That got me thinking that Natasha hasn't quite been treated the same way. I know that many love her and Scarlett Johansson but especially after watching her solo movie I can't help but feel a bit disappointed because in my mind she is like the definition of an anti-hero. Yet the MCU has a serious case of telling but not showing when it comes to her though. We haven't seen her do many if any things that could be labeled morally dubious. The bombing of Drykov could have been something like that but as we all know even that got revealed to have done nothing and was corrected in the end.

  11. #26
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    In my mind she's never really been an antihero at all outside of that time they basically made her the punisher for a mini a couple years back and I'm quite glad the MCU didn't do that either. The whole death and promptly forgotten mistake aside I don't have any real problems with that adaptation of her.
    I wouldn't call iron man an antihero either for that matter.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

    Matt's Stuff [Blog]: Star Wars Visions: Ranked
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  12. #27
    Astonishing Member Galerion's Avatar
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    I know what mini you are talking about but you don't have to be as extreme as the Punisher to be an anti-hero. It is not a black or white thing.

    From TV Tropes:
    "There are just as many variations on Anti-Heroes as there are normal heroes. Some common attributes are: rarely speaking, being a loner, either extreme celibacy or extreme promiscuity, parental issues, occasional Past Experience Nightmares and flashbacks relating to a Dark and Troubled Past that can take many forms depending on the Anti-Hero in question; and being able to tell the story of their life through any Nick Cave song. Some won't Save the Villain, but they will Shoot the Dog, and they will not hesitate to kill anyone who threatens them. Other characters may try to impress upon them the value of more traditional heroic values through The Power of Friendship, but these lessons tend to bounce more often than stick."


    This is from the Edmondson run from 2014



    Don't think you can find a better single page example.
    • There is a dead guy in the bathtub. One bullet in chest, one in the head so this guy was basically executed just so Natasha can take his place.
    • She outs herself as a loner.
    • She has no moral issues with what she has done by saying she has slept well. The previous pages really show her just getting out of bed like a normal person.



    There is nothing wrong with this. The end goal of a traditional hero like Captain America for example and an anti-hero is the same after all. Stopping the bad guys. It's just how you accomplish it where the difference is.
    And that is just where in my opinion the MCU hasn't done a good job. Natasha worked for Shield for quite some time what has she actually done all this time while working for them? We don't know and the reason is obvious. Espionage work by definition isn't heroic. It is dirty. Lying, stealing, spying, assassination, kidnapping, blackmailing, sabotage, etc. Those are the tools of the trade and it doesn't matter who you work for either. Be it Shield, the CIA, the KGB, Hydra or some other kind of government or secret society. Everyone is playing the same game and there is a reason all that stuff is kept secret and is happening behind the scenes.

    Disney just has trouble with making more mature material. A movie like "Logan" would have never be done under their leadership despite how good and successful it was. That's probably why I and many other are so big fans of Captain America: The Winter Soldier. It's is still the movie in the MCU that comes the closest in terms of tone and theme. I just expected the Black Widow movie to be similar and in the beginning it was but then it shifted and never recovered.

  13. #28
    Incredible Member chicago_bastard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    In my mind she's never really been an antihero at all outside of that time they basically made her the punisher for a mini a couple years back and I'm quite glad the MCU didn't do that either. The whole death and promptly forgotten mistake aside I don't have any real problems with that adaptation of her.
    I wouldn't call iron man an antihero either for that matter.
    Pretty much agree with this although I'd like to add that I also thought it was a reasonable depiction of her in the Soska series given what had happened just before that run. In my opinion the Soska mini was also pretty much in line with what Rosenberg had established in Tales of Suspense where we saw her murdering clones left and right without hesitation, leaving Clint in total horror. Makes sense to me that she had to develop into the more heroic Natasha after her resurrection and didn't start right where she left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galerion View Post
    There is nothing wrong with this. The end goal of a traditional hero like Captain America for example and an anti-hero is the same after all. Stopping the bad guys. It's just how you accomplish it where the difference is.
    And that is just where in my opinion the MCU hasn't done a good job. Natasha worked for Shield for quite some time what has she actually done all this time while working for them? We don't know and the reason is obvious. Espionage work by definition isn't heroic. It is dirty. Lying, stealing, spying, assassination, kidnapping, blackmailing, sabotage, etc. Those are the tools of the trade and it doesn't matter who you work for either. Be it Shield, the CIA, the KGB, Hydra or some other kind of government or secret society. Everyone is playing the same game and there is a reason all that stuff is kept secret and is happening behind the scenes.

    Disney just has trouble with making more mature material. A movie like "Logan" would have never be done under their leadership despite how good and successful it was. That's probably why I and many other are so big fans of Captain America: The Winter Soldier. It's is still the movie in the MCU that comes the closest in terms of tone and theme. I just expected the Black Widow movie to be similar and in the beginning it was but then it shifted and never recovered.
    The Winter Soldier is the point in time where Natasha turns into a fully fledged classic hero without any "anti" at all. The movie revolves around Nat and Steve influencing each others views so it ends with Steve being less idealistic while Nat has left the morally grey aspects of her personality behind her.

    So any movie set after The Winter Soldier - thus including Black Widow - that depicted Nat as an anti-hero would have been completely out of character in regards of her MCU arc.
    Tolstoy will live forever. Some people do. But that's not enough. It's not the length of a life that matters, just the depth of it. The chances we take. The paths we choose. How we go on when our hearts break. Hearts always break and so we bend with our hearts. And we sway. But in the end what matters is that we loved... and lived.

  14. #29
    Incredible Member OOTCS's Avatar
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    I don't think "anti-hero" and "non-traditional hero" mean the same thing. An anti-hero is someone who does bad things from good intentions, like Magneto in his more villain-like phases, whereas Natasha does good things, but the methods she uses aren't the same ones that most superheroes use. Still, she's a force for good, which isn't something most of the heroes in the Marvel Universe would say about the Punisher.

    As far as MCU Tony goes...I don't even see where anyone would call him an anti-hero. I mean, Ultron was a huge screw-up, but what he turned into was not what Tony intended him to be. That doesn't make Tony an anti-hero, just someone who makes mistakes. And his attitude is douche-y, but again, attitude isn't the mark of an anti-hero. He's just a hero who's extremely snarky and also screws up sometimes.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Galerion's Avatar
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    Fellow Natasha fans I have the feeling some of you are jumping through some big logic loopholes to justify her not being an anti-hero when the modern comic version definitely is. It's not an affront to the character. You realize that, right? Like the entire Wolverine family are anti-heroes or in Lauras case at least has been for a very long time.

    She kills people in cold blood and not only in a straight up firefight which would be self-defense but also people who are unaware or people who are no longer a threat to her or anyone else. By pretty much every definition of the law that you can find those instances would be labeled as manslaughter or murder.
    That was not only true in that Soska mini but also under Edmondson, Waid & Samnee and now under Thompson. Even in stuff like Infinity Countdown: Black Widow it's true. Considering the sheer amount of canon material showing it, I find it odd that I even have to write this.

    The MCU version is a different though which is what I was arguing. Obviously as we know the Black Widow movie that we got isn't the one that we should have gotten. But internal politics over at Marvel/Disney prevented anything else. Like I said there are many fans of MCU Black Widow but she never got quite the depth that she should have gotten and that she has in the comics. Even in her own movie the real star was Florence Pugh as Yelena if we are honest. The only thing you pretty much hear about that movie is how great she was. Natasha was just in for the ride. Now don't get me wrong all the praise that Florence Pugh is getting is justified and Im also a fan. I just hope that don't repeat wasting so much potential with her as they did with Natasha. Especially now that we enter a high power phase with the mystical and cosmic side and the multiverse.

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