Page 35 of 104 FirstFirst ... 253132333435363738394585 ... LastLast
Results 511 to 525 of 1549
  1. #511
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    361

    Default

    Also I don't buy into the idea that 'barbra's presence brings sales' I don't think any bump in sales due to her is all that meaningful, if it did then she would have her own title, Barbra outside of the initial new 52 hype has never really sold well, especially considering the promotion she gets which includes consistent appearances in popular animated media, she was getting outsold by redhood (which was another dumpsterfire considering the hype around his character and the great appearances in games and animated movies), redhood was also selling terribly, barbra sells merchandise like hot cakes, she doesn't sell comic books well, Cass does a better job then barbra as far as selling comic goes

    To begin with why are we pretending that sales matter all that much? Dc comics is a IP farm, Arthur never sold that well and kaldur sells worse(seriously if nightwing started doing Below 15k numbers then you might as well let Bruce blow him up) yet they keep them around because that's an IP that they see potential in, Nightwing has consistently outsold Batgirl yet Batgirl gets a movie and Nightwing doesn't because Batgirl is an IP they see potential in, so it has never been about sales as much as it has been about greater relevance in dcu, any relationship that grounds dick in one place is limiting imo, dick doesn't work well with being grounded, that is barbra's thing not Dick's, it's the reason why I've never seen the appeal to their relationship, dick is way more exciting character when he's not grounded in one place physically or mentally, which was why Grayson worked so well, it gave dick a stomping ground that wasn't influenced by Batman but also did not make dick rooted in one place, it also solved the 'secret identity/job' problem, seriously outside of him running a circus everything he has done is lame as hell
    Last edited by yash; 01-28-2022 at 08:26 AM.

  2. #512
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    17,576

    Default

    Trying to use sales to argue against Nightwing is a pretty short sighted thing. Ceteris paribus, Nightwing tends to sell better than most DC titles that aren't Bruce or the League (I think he outsells Harley these days too?), and has some of the most company's most consistent sales; other titles might sell better for a short time but those sales collapse fairly quickly, the title is cancelled, and Nightwing just keeps on trucking. It's outlasted tons of other titles and characters that get more attention and more marketing. And of course, right now it's doing even better than it normally does and is getting critical and commercial acclaim I doubt any of us ever expected to actually see.

    Nightwing might not top the sales rankings, but it turns a reliable and respectable profit every month. Even during the Ric saga, the book was selling better than a lot of DC's other titles despite the utter sh*t quality, and those sales held strong far longer than they ever should have. I'm not sure if any other character in DC's stable (other than Bruce, maybe) could have maintained sales through Ric as well as Nightwing did (and I wish that hadn't been the case because all of y'all buying that book just dragged the whole Ric thing out longer).

    Just consider the fact that Nightwing sells better than characters like Arrow and Aquaman, both of whom had very successful larger media projects (neither of them can even hold down a solo year after year). And he sells better than iconic, classic characters like Wonder Woman and Flash, despite those A-listers being recognized by most people on the planet (and also having successful adaptations).

    Nightwing isn't a Top Ten book but what it has is a level of reliability that is damn near miraculous, and that's with minimal effort from DC. These last few months we've got to see what happens when DC actually tries a little bit and puts a popular creator on the book. Imagine what sales might look like two or three years from now if DC keeps this up and doesn't screw up their own effort?
    Last edited by Ascended; 01-28-2022 at 09:43 AM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  3. #513
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    BR
    Posts
    3,146

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yash View Post
    To begin with why are we pretending that sales matter all that much? Dc comics is a IP farm, Arthur never sold that well and kaldur sells worse(seriously if nightwing started doing Below 15k numbers then you might as well let Bruce blow him up) yet they keep them around because that's an IP that they see potential in, Nightwing has consistently outsold Batgirl yet Batgirl gets a movie and Nightwing doesn't because Batgirl is an IP they see potential in, so it has never been about sales as much as it has been about greater relevance in dcu
    Batgirl getting a movie has nothing to do with greater relevance in dcu, but because she is the girl version of Batman.
    Batgirl does NOT have more relevance to the "greater DCU" than Dick Grayson.

    Quote Originally Posted by yash View Post
    any relationship that grounds dick in one place is limiting imo, dick doesn't work well with being grounded, that is barbra's thing not Dick's, it's the reason why I've never seen the appeal to their relationship, dick is way more exciting character when he's not grounded in one place physically or mentally, which was why Grayson worked so well, it gave dick a stomping ground that wasn't influenced by Batman but also did not make dick rooted in one place, it also solved the 'secret identity/job' problem, seriously outside of him running a circus everything he has done is lame as hell
    It was. Batman gave his mission to infiltrate Spyral and Dick reported to him every day. When Bruce got amnesia, Dick went back to Gotham cause he coulnd't get contact with Batman. Soon after he was part of the Robin War crossover.
    DC: Dick Grayson, Wally West, Donna Troy, Yara Flor, Titans

    My favorite Mangas: One Piece, Slam Dunk, Fullmetal Alchemist, HunterXHunter, Vinland Saga, 20th Century Boys, Monster, Attack on Titan.
    Current reading: Vagabond, Berserk, Dead Dead Dededede Destruction, Jujutsu Kaisen, Real, Chainsaw Man.

  4. #514
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    478

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Trying to use sales to argue against Nightwing is a pretty short sighted thing. Ceteris paribus, Nightwing tends to sell better than most DC titles that aren't Bruce or the League (I think he outsells Harley these days too?), and has some of the most company's most consistent sales; other titles might sell better for a short time but those sales collapse fairly quickly, the title is cancelled, and Nightwing just keeps on trucking. It's outlasted tons of other titles and characters that get more attention and more marketing. And of course, right now it's doing even better than it normally does and is getting critical and commercial acclaim I doubt any of us ever expected to actually see.

    Nightwing might not top the sales rankings, but it turns a reliable and respectable profit every month. Even during the Ric saga, the book was selling better than a lot of DC's other titles despite the utter sh*t quality, and those sales held strong far longer than they ever should have. I'm not sure if any other character in DC's stable (other than Bruce, maybe) could have maintained sales through Ric as well as Nightwing did (and I wish that hadn't been the case because all of y'all buying that book just dragged the whole Ric thing out longer).

    Just consider the fact that Nightwing sells better than characters like Arrow and Aquaman, both of whom had very successful larger media projects (neither of them can even hold down a solo year after year). And he sells better than iconic, classic characters like Wonder Woman and Flash, despite those A-listers being recognized by most people on the planet (and also having successful adaptations).

    Nightwing isn't a Top Ten book but what it has is a level of reliability that is damn near miraculous, and that's with minimal effort from DC. These last few months we've got to see what happens when DC actually tries a little bit and puts a popular creator on the book. Imagine what sales might look like two or three years from now if DC keeps this up and doesn't screw up their own effort?
    Sales on comics are like a small testing sample of the general audience. A film with Dick as Nightwing in Bludhaven would do better box office wise then him as a spy.

    Barbara and her relationship with Dick, is a factor in sales. So is Bludhaven and every other story and creative team decision. They are all contributors. This is why we keep coming back to this setting. It IS Dicks long term status quo.

    It is fact. This run has been more financially successful than Grayson. Critical reception has been about the same.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 01-28-2022 at 10:28 AM.

  5. #515
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,899

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Nightwing isn't a Top Ten book but what it has is a level of reliability that is damn near miraculous, and that's with minimal effort from DC. These last few months we've got to see what happens when DC actually tries a little bit and puts a popular creator on the book. Imagine what sales might look like two or three years from now if DC keeps this up and doesn't screw up their own effort?
    You do wonder, don't you.... I loved Grayson, and I don't think you can argue that DC didn't support it. It started off as a 12 issue maxi-series pitch, then when it turned out to be well-liked and to sell decently that got extended. Then when it continued to do well, it became part of the backbone of Batman And Robin Eternal as well as Robin War.

    I don't think it's hugely controversial to say that those didn't work so well, and so DC backed off a bit - but they did look to capitalise. You do wonder what a similar capitalising on Taylor's Nightwing would look like.

    I'm not saying you'll necessarily get a Nightwing Sinestro Corps War or Blackest Night, but his Throne Of Atlantis or Shadow War doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    It was. Batman gave his mission to infiltrate Spyral and Dick reported to him every day. When Bruce got amnesia, Dick went back to Gotham cause he coulnd't get contact with Batman. Soon after he was part of the Robin War crossover.
    Yeah, people forget how much the premise of Grayson was that Dick was targetted by Spyral because he was in the Bat Family, that he didn't want to do the mission but was asked by Bruce because it was Bruce's plan, and how often he reported to him or asked him for help. It was all well-executed, but he was much more tied to Batman than he is so far in the current run - and, to be honest, for the portion of the run he was present for Bruce was basically playing Oracle.

  6. #516

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Sales on comics are like a small testing sample of the general audience. A film with Dick as Nightwing in Bludhaven would do better box office wise then him as a spy.

    Barbara and her relationship with Dick, is a factor in sales. So is Bludhaven and every other story and creative team decision. They are all contributors. This is why we keep coming back to this setting. It IS Dicks long term status quo.

    It is fact. This run has been more financially successful than Grayson. Critical reception has been about the same.
    If this were true, then why did WB pass on Nightwing solo projects so much? The main reason is Becuase comics don’t reflect popularity of a character at all. Iron Man got a movie when he was borderline cancelled by marvel and now he is a top seller. It’s never been about how well comics sell. It’s always been about how well the character themselves sells. That’s why we have a million Batman books and merch. It’s why Batman gets the prestige films and none of the other batfam does. Unless Nightwing is pulling Harry Potter or Twilight level sales as a comic, I don’t think it’s safe to say comics are the testing ground at all. His status quo never changes Becuase DC doesn’t know what to do with him and he works as a prop for the batfamily out of convenience.

    If the batgirl movie manages to prop her up in status, it’s likely DC will start to push her a lot more. It’s exactly why Harley Quinn is everywhere now. It’s why Wonder Woman is getting a big push right now as well. Soon, Batgirl might not even need to be associated with anyone in the batfamily other than Batman to be successful. That’s what you should want for Nighrwing.

  7. #517
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    478

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    I'm not saying you'll necessarily get a Nightwing Sinestro Corps War or Blackest Night, but his Throne Of Atlantis or Shadow War doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility.

    Yeah, people forget how much the premise of Grayson was that Dick was targetted by Spyral because he was in the Bat Family, that he didn't want to do the mission but was asked by Bruce because it was Bruce's plan, and how often he reported to him or asked him for help. It was all well-executed, but he was much more tied to Batman than he is so far in the current run - and, to be honest, for the portion of the run he was present for Bruce was basically playing Oracle.
    I would be pumped to get an event based around Nightwing.

    I loved Dick and Bruce's relationship in Grayson. Felt like the Dynamic Duo but equals. I like that Dick would drop everything to help Bruce. I believe it was Seeley who said going into Grayson he considered Dick and Bruce to be the DCU`s closest friends. Only makes sense for the original dynamic duo.

  8. #518
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    478

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    If this were true, then why did WB pass on Nightwing solo projects so much? The main reason is Becuase comics don’t reflect popularity of a character at all. Iron Man got a movie when he was borderline cancelled by marvel and now he is a top seller. It’s never been about how well comics sell. It’s always been about how well the character themselves sells. That’s why we have a million Batman books and merch. It’s why Batman gets the prestige films and none of the other batfam does. Unless Nightwing is pulling Harry Potter or Twilight level sales as a comic, I don’t think it’s safe to say comics are the testing ground at all. His status quo never changes Becuase DC doesn’t know what to do with him and he works as a prop for the batfamily out of convenience.

    If the batgirl movie manages to prop her up in status, it’s likely DC will start to push her a lot more. It’s exactly why Harley Quinn is everywhere now. It’s why Wonder Woman is getting a big push right now as well. Soon, Batgirl might not even need to be associated with anyone in the batfamily other than Batman to be successful. That’s what you should want for Nighrwing.
    Because with batgirl there is no baggage of her starting out as a sidekick, where as with Dick this needs to be explained. Hence why they introduce him in a different film first. Guaranteed Dick gets a film if Batgirl does decent.

    None of these other comic characters getting a film have that much history built into the concept.

  9. #519
    Mighty Member ayanestar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    1,163

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Because with batgirl there is no baggage of her starting out as a sidekick, where as with Dick this needs to be explained. Hence why they introduce him in a different film first. Guaranteed Dick gets a film if Batgirl does decent.

    None of these other comic characters getting a film have that much history built into the concept.
    All there is to be mentioned is that he was Robin and worked with Batman until he quit. That's all the casual movie goers need to know. I don't see how that is considered baggage. The Robins after him would need a bit more explaining. However, I still think there is the possibility of DC just introducing a new Robin because I highly doubt we will see more than one Robin on the big screen, so they might as well just go with a new kid or choose one of the Robins and ignore the rest.

  10. #520
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    361

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Sales on comics are like a small testing sample of the general audience. A film with Dick as Nightwing in Bludhaven would do better box office wise then him as a spy.
    where are you getting your confidence from to say this as if it's a fact? Captain Marvel can't sell decent number of comics to save her life and her movie did great on box office, same with Shang chi, daredevil did great numbers for years and his movie did terrible, you can't be this confident about whether an IP will translate well on certain platforms, if you said a web series I could see it but why would a nightwing movie do better in box office? Bludhaven pales in comparison to Gotham and nightwing comes off as diet cola Batman, why would nightwing be more relevant in dceu then a spy who can keep appearing in multiple movies as a important part of the story and build a familiarity with audience to the point he gets a movie just like black widow? nightwing's ceiling in dceu is Hawkeye, hell red hood has a higher ceiling then NW does,RH has a winter soldier ceiling i.e central to plots of multiple films, most NW can get is a movie on HBO Max which won't even be about his origin, it will mostly be used to setup other characters and a titans movie or a under the red hood movie lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Barbara and her relationship with Dick, is a factor in sales. So is Bludhaven and every other story and creative team decision. They are all contributors. This is why we keep coming back to this setting. It IS Dicks long term status quo.
    again no, we didn't get back to NW because Grayson was selling poorly(it wasn't), we did because there was a bigger event called rebirth which required dick to go back to NW for Titans, that happened because Dick's success is not important enough that they just sacrifice the bigger narrative, it's not because they had plans for nightwing, the trainwreck that followed through after rebirth is plenty Evidence of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    It is fact. This run has been more financially successful than Grayson. Critical reception has been about the same.
    yes it is a fact, it is also an incomplete fact, I've already stated why I think you're being unfair to Grayson with your sales point and why I think Barbra is not the reason for the sales bump so I'm not going into details about that

  11. #521
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    478

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ayanestar View Post
    All there is to be mentioned is that he was Robin and worked with Batman until he quit. That's all the casual movie goers need to know. I don't see how that is considered baggage. The Robins after him would need a bit more explaining. However, I still think there is the possibility of DC just introducing a new Robin because I highly doubt we will see more than one Robin on the big screen, so they might as well just go with a new kid or choose one of the Robins and ignore the rest.
    Its not impossible, it just is MORE baggage than a standard origin. No other origin is dependent on the characters relationship with in another role. It would be better to start the film with a somewhat developed relationship with Bruce.

    Also, I do not think Grayson is a failure or that sold poorly. Just not as well as the current run. Which is indeed true.

    Superheroes do better at the box office than spies. That is also true.

    This coming from someone who prefers Grayson to the current run. But the concept was lightning in a bottle. 99% or other creative teams would not be able to to do it well. The concept had a shelf life from the very first issue. Dick remaining a secret agent would undermine the whole story. The point being he does not want to be there. He is out of place. What made the story interesting is he waned to go back to being a superhero but was forced to play the game of spies in order to infiltrate Spyral and then got left in the cold.

    That was the crux of the story. He may have been a natural fit as a spy skill set wise, but personally he did not want to be there. He wanted to be Nightwing.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 01-28-2022 at 11:24 AM.

  12. #522
    Mighty Member ayanestar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    1,163

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Its not impossible, it just is MORE baggage than a standard origin. No other origin is dependent on the characters relationship with in another role. It would be better to start the film with a somewhat developed relationship with Bruce.
    His origin is that his parents died because of a bad guy, he got picked up by a rich guy because he saw himself in Dick, then Dick became Robin and eventually quit because they had a falling out. That's all casual movie goers need to know. We are talking about a Nightwing movie, so his development with Bruce wouldn't matter nor should be the main point of it. That's something you would expect to see in a Robin movie or be lead to in a Batman movie. I really think you are making this more complicated than it has to be.

  13. #523
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    478

    Default

    Showing and telling are different things. To introduce and flesh out his relationship is better than delivering exposition. That would be like ahving Tony tell people about his experience as a prisoner to terrorist without actually showing it.

    I am not saying you cannot do it. Just that it is certainly more challenging.

  14. #524
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    16,418

    Default

    Grayson would’ve sold a lot better if it was called “Agent Nightwing” or some such, and that’s still the route I’d probably go with it. Basic gist of Dick joining an organization to bring it down from the inside is still easily adaptable enough, and I do hope we get to see a take on it one day.
    For when my rants on the forums just arenít enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  15. #525
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    478

    Default

    I would love to see a take on it. One of the best runs out there. But because the story revolves around Dick having a difficult time leaving his superhero life behind for a time to infiltrate, I think it would be best to show him as Nightwing first.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •