Dick Grayson: Robin/Batman/Nightwing/Agent 37 Appreciation 2022

[ayanestar]

Connor Hawke might finally get some love after all this. His return has been handled entirely by Williamson after all, so I think it's pretty likely that he'll be on this new team.

Besides that, I think the Monkey Prince, Robin, and Batgirls books are the only books with Asian leads at DC which is not the widest offering lol. Robin is a good book at least, and I believe in the Monkey Prince creative team so there's that.

I have no idea what Monkey Prince is but it looks too silly for my taste. Most people I know don't even know Connor Hawke is mixed. Anyway I was thinking more of the likes of Dr. Light, Shiva, Cheshire, Kong Kenan and Tai Pham but I guess none of them are popular enough to hold their own title, still I would like to see them in the spotlight again and pushed outside of comics too.

[John Venus]

Honestly, as much as I like the Titans, they are a jr Justice League. They will always be considered the B team. Its not like the X-Men compared to the Avengers. The Titans are regarded as the sidekick team to the general public. And tbh they kind of are. They have no mission statement and have not had single good run since Wolman/Perez 35 yrs ago. While I would prefer they still remain friends, I think it would greatly benefit Dick to move away from the team all together. Either join League or a different team with an actual mission statement. The Titans books do nothing but hold the generation back from doing grander things.

Obviously no one other than the main 7 stay on the League permanently so Dick can always go back to the Titans if he needs to. Or even serve on both. But joining the League does not devalue the Titans because your worst case scenario is already the reality.

That perception is largely due to DC derailing any Titans comic run during the 00's and the '10's. Otherwise, they've always had world building elements unique to them like the Trigon, Citadel, Gordaninans, Deathstroke, Cheshire, Brother Blood, the Titans of Myth and so many others. They may have started off as 'JL Jr' but they definitely outgrew it only to get shoved back in and later thrown off the tracks.

I also question how much the public perception is of them as 'Justice League Jr'. The most popular version of the Teen Titans is still the 2003 version. The only members of that roster who is a sidekick are Robin and Beast Boy. It's so popular that Millenial and Gen Z audiences still cosplay and create fan art and tribute to those characters, Gabriel Picolo's version of TT based off of the 2003 version is getting official DC books to work on and it's grown into it's own little micro culture online. The Titans show is horrible but it still gets rating because there is a huge pre established fan base for these characters who desperately wants to see them in some form. CN even revived TT as Teen Titans Go and it's turned into one of DC's longest running shows.

[Vordan]

Feel like putting Dick on the JL and not attempting to push the Titans would be a mistake. If benching the League and making the Titans the premiere team still doesn’t get people to care about that team than you might as well retire that team completely imo. Let Nightwing form a new team with a new name with a few of the Titans (I’m thinking Starfire, Raven, and Donna, maybe Cyborg).

I personally wish DC would try to push some of their Asian characters as well, but I guess I'm asking for too much.

I miss Kenan, wish he was getting the push over the others, but what can you do?

[ayanestar]

That perception is largely due to DC derailing any Titans comic run during the 00's and the '10's. Otherwise, they've always had world building elements unique to them like the Trigon, Citadel, Gordaninans, Deathstroke, Cheshire, Brother Blood, the Titans of Myth and so many others. They may have started off as 'JL Jr' but they definitely outgrew it only to get shoved back in and later thrown off the tracks.

I also question how much the public perception is of them as 'Justice League Jr'. The most popular version of the Teen Titans is still the 2003 version. The only members of that roster who is a sidekick are Robin and Beast Boy. It's so popular that Millenial and Gen Z audiences still cosplay and create fan art and tribute to those characters, Gabriel Picolo's version of TT based off of the 2003 version is getting official DC books to work on and it's grown into it's own little micro culture online. The Titans show is horrible but it still gets rating because there is a huge pre established fan base for these characters who desperately wants to see them in some form. CN even revived TT as Teen Titans Go and it's turned into one of DC's longest running shows.

My younger sibling is obsessed with TTG. I know fans of the 2003 version love to hate on it but it's really popular with kids however I wonder why DC never bothered to try to continue or reboot the 2003 version. It obviously still has a lot of fans and would most likely be a success.

I miss Kenan, wish he was getting the push over the others, but what can you do?

Yeah, I was starting to warm up to him but now he is nowhere to be found.

[Rac7d*]

Being on the JL doesn’t mean anything aside from saying you were a
Memeber. We just saw Naomi and newbie and Black
Adam former villain join for promotional purposes.

[Lal]

Seems like Capullo is working on the Gotham Knights comics.
He deleted the tweet, but that's the image he posted before deleting it
GK.jpg

[Ascended]

Wally and Cyborg should be on the League but I'm not a fan of Nightwing being a part of the JL. It makes the Titans seem like a stepping stone to the JL and not a team in their own right. Dick's whole character is that he is trying to be his own man and finding his own place in the world, thus he should be leading his own team and not picking up after Bruce by leading the JL and Outsiders.

I'm cool with Jace being on the JL since he was tailor made to be the new Batman anyway.

Normally I agree, Dick shouldn't be League (by his choice). But in a case like this where the Big 7 are gone? Dick needs to step up and lead the heroic community, nobody is better suited for it. Hell every time the League or Bruce has disappeared in the past it's usually Dick who takes charge anyway so this wouldn't even be new for him.

[Lal]

Normally I agree, Dick shouldn't be League (by his choice). But in a case like this where the Big 7 are gone? Dick needs to step up and lead the heroic community, nobody is better suited for it. Hell every time the League or Bruce has disappeared in the past it's usually Dick who takes charge anyway so this wouldn't even be new for him.

Agreed.

But at the same time, if Dick joins the "new league", the Titans have zero chance of becoming the significant team in the DCU, even temporarily. Dick is the Titans' lead character, and if he's not there, it weaken their franchise significantly.

Overall I'm okay with either no league for a while and the Titans getting a significant push, or Dick helping rebuild the next league. I hope we'll see at least one of these two options.

[Rac7d*]

Agreed.

But at the same time, if Dick joins the "new league", the Titans have zero chance of becoming the significant team in the DCU, even temporarily. Dick is the Titans' lead character, and if he's not there, it weaken their franchise significantly.

Overall I'm okay with either no league for a while and the Titans getting a significant push, or Dick helping rebuild the next league. I hope we'll see at least one of these two options.

That’s another problems in itself his generation of titans need him more then he needs them.
So while they are important I would never jeopardize his title and have him solely with the titans.

[Digifiend]

It's not like they are safe even with the Titans at the Tower under Tim Sheridan's pen.

Indeed. spoilers:

Red X just destroyed the Tower. Maybe they should rebuild it in Bludhaven? It'd help with Dick's current situation in his solo book, lol.

end of spoilers

So far I wonder what thinks are in future state still true now that we know Batman future state isn't cannon. Since Bruce did traveling and the gang has met Jace. The JL events seem to still happen. Wonder woman's future state is now in motion.

Teen Titans Future State has just been prevented too. Green Lantern's already happened.

Will that be possible between Gotham and Bludhaven this seems like the future state scenario, with him taking lead. However as one of the most veterans heroes it wouldn’t be right for him to not assisting all the newbies. Sure Yara has Donna and Jackson Garth and Meera but their are other who need help.

The titans are kinda locked down until the school is shut down

Not really, because they can rotate in other Titans as faculty, freeing up the New Teen Titans. They can also have Titans teams in more than one city i.e. not where the school is. Remember Titans West?

[Godlike13]

Remember Future State Nightwing and it’s main objective of showing readers Dick giving Jace the nod. Ya, they are not putting Dick on the JL with those guys. It defeats the purpose. They are taking the likes of Bruce, Clark, and Diana off the table to more or less force the market to look at them. So they aren’t going to throw Dick in there as Dick would undermine the idea. They want readers to look at the new guys as the next more socially diverse gen of the JL. Tailor made to conform with many of today’s diversity trends. Eventually though the original JL will come back leaving them in the wind till an adaptation maybe picks them up. Because they have no Nightwing or Titans that can coexist with the OGs

I get it will seem like a slight to Dick, but Nightwing needs to continue building his own library of potential adaptable material not predicated on whether Bruce is around or not.

[Iclifton]

Feel like putting Dick on the JL and not attempting to push the Titans would be a mistake. If benching the League and making the Titans the premiere team still doesn’t get people to care about that team than you might as well retire that team completely imo. Let Nightwing form a new team with a new name with a few of the Titans (I’m thinking Starfire, Raven, and Donna, maybe Cyborg).



I miss Kenan, wish he was getting the push over the others, but what can you do?

One thing we know, DC is not benching the main 7 to push the Titans team. Its not going to happen. They are going to push a new generation of JL until the original 7 come back. Hopefully Dick can get onboard and get more of spotlight. But the Titans as a group are definitely not getting the push.

[Rac7d*]

Indeed. spoilers:

Red X just destroyed the Tower. Maybe they should rebuild it in Bludhaven? It'd help with Dick's current situation in his solo book, lol.

end of spoilers

Teen Titans Future State has just been prevented too. Green Lantern's already happened.

Not really, because they can rotate in other Titans as faculty, freeing up the New Teen Titans. They can also have Titans teams in more than one city i.e. not where the school is. Remember Titans West?

Yes Titans west tower is run down and abandoned presently as we saw last month in aqualad. No they can’t rotate becuase the staff is 6 adults and 600 kids and Nightwing is already part time. They need people to join titans and relive the burden

[Ascended]

Agreed.

But at the same time, if Dick joins the "new league", the Titans have zero chance of becoming the significant team in the DCU, even temporarily. Dick is the Titans' lead character, and if he's not there, it weaken their franchise significantly.

Overall I'm okay with either no league for a while and the Titans getting a significant push, or Dick helping rebuild the next league. I hope we'll see at least one of these two options.

See, I'm really torn on this because the whole thing reeks of awful, short-term, shock value gimmick....and who the hell wants to waste money on those anymore? But at the same time, the League getting put aside for a while is a great opportunity to push characters and teams that were ignored, sidelined, and abused under the previous regime (and even before then, in some cases). The League is a glass ceiling that has held everyone else back for years, and removing it from the DCU offers a chance to do some legit, long-term world building that everyone (including the League) would benefit from. So the idea that DC is just going to chase the gimmick (again!!!) instead of putting in real work is pretty disappointing. After the new owners got quality effort and talent on guys like Dick, Wally, and Justice Incarnate I had some hope that they might have more vision than the Didio era DC and might have the fortitude to do something other than chase the short-term dollar (and the diminishing returns that habit has brought the industry). But from the sounds of this? Nope, just more worthless gimmicks.

What I expect to happen is the League "dies" but not really; they get kidnapped or lost in space-time or whatever. They're not dead, everyone just thinks they are. And for a few months DC will do the whole "What do we do now that they're gone? Who could possibly lead us?" thing and really hammer home the idea of the League being the linchpin of the heroic community, but without having anyone step up, be responsible, and keep things together. Then the villains that "killed" the League, what are they called, the Black Army or something? They'll show up, the Future State roster will join together in righteous victory as the new League, save the old League, and probably launch a new JL title from the aftermath. The novelty of DC's younger, more diverse League will die quickly because at the end of the day the Justice League is the Justice League, sales will crater, and the Future State kids will be lucky to avoid limbo.

What I would *like* to happen is the League "dies" but not really. And heroes like Dick, Mr. Terrific, and Jon Kent rally the heroic community and hold everything together, not as a single Big Deal team but as a wide network of teams and individuals (organized by Babs Gordon and/or Vic) that are more omnipresent than the League ever was. Teams like the Titans, JSA, etc., actually get to matter again and not be held back by the League's glass ceiling. And when the Black Army arrives on earth, those leaders pull together into a new team, not a new League but a Justice Legion (or whatever "Justice" related name you like, but something that evokes the shift from Justice Society to Justice League). The Army is smashed against the combined, organized might of earth's considerable heroic population, the old League is saved, and while the Big 7 JLA is back in action, the other teams and the new Justice Legion are no longer treated as if they don't matter because they had all that time without the League to establish their own roles and mission statements without the League's shadow making them look pointless (it might take some time to convince fans of the same but that's why this is long-term investment and not a short-term cash-grab).

Use a roster consisting of (just a possible example) Dick, Yara Flor, Jon Kent, and Wally West, and round it out with whoever works best; Cyborg, Terrific, Beetle, Kid Quick, Power Girl, Doctor Multiverse, Vibe, who the hell ever; just diverse heroes with lots of talent, experience, power, and some solo mythos to build on. That way DC gets to push the Future State characters, but they're not just taking a **** on everyone else and the story actually looks like a story and not a big advertisement for a new flavor of Batman.

I know this whole thing is about pushing the Future State kids, but why the hell would anyone expect this to work? It's never worked before and we have seen DC do this same "replace the old bastards!" song and dance over and over again. At best they'll run into the same problem Dick's generation did; too old to be sidekicks but not allowed to stand outside the shadow of their franchise leads. At worst they'll just disappear under the weight of the fandom's apathy like the New Age heroes did.

And obviously DC is hoping like hell they get an adaptation out of this, and the Future State roster is clearly built to capitalize on current social trends (which I support) but a move this big is utterly unnecessary; the characters already have enough material to base an original story around for larger media, comics don't often benefit from those anyway, and WB's track record with films makes an adaptation a monkey's paw waiting to blow up in everyone's faces anyway.

Edit: My gods I sound bitchy and negative! Sorry folks! I'm actually not as against this as I probably sound. We don't even know what "this" is yet. I'm just.....ironically bemused by how inane this story could end up being and how, if true, even after a regime change nobody's learned anything. But still, apologies for the rants.

[MakeNightwingGreatAgain]

Remember Future State Nightwing and it’s main objective of showing readers Dick giving Jace the nod. Ya, they are not putting Dick on the JL with those guys. It defeats the purpose. They are taking the likes of Bruce, Clark, and Diana off the table to more or less force the market to look at them. So they aren’t going to throw Dick in there as Dick would undermine the idea. They want readers to look at the new guys as the next more socially diverse gen of the JL. Tailor made to conform with many of today’s diversity trends. Eventually though the original JL will come back leaving them in the wind till an adaptation maybe picks them up. Because they have no Nightwing or Titans that can coexist with the OGs

I get it will seem like a slight to Dick, but Nightwing needs to continue building his own library of potential adaptable material not predicated on whether Bruce is around or not.

Probably would be the best thing to ever happen to Dick as a character! He needs to stand on his own whether or not Batman/Batfam is around. This is why I am always in the camp of re-vamping his character and treating him as something new (despite the fact he isn't) and re-doing his mythos in a way that doesnt tie him down to any property unless its one that he quite literally becomes known for being an integral member. Bruce Wayne Batman can stand on his own and still be with Justice League even if he isn't on that current team. That's a benefit most of the original justice league members have. No matter what happens, we all know its Bruce Wayne who is Batman in Justice League.

Same with Clark Kent superman or Diana Wonder Woman. They all stand on their own while still being able to stand out in an ensemble and is considered non-replaceable. To comic book fans Dick fits this bill with Titans, but he actually doesnt. For one reason only: He is mainly still known as Robin, a mantle that is an extension Batman that also has like 5 people under it. Dick isnt even the only Robin to appear in Teen Titans/Titans related content. The Titans unfortunately only featured Dick as Robin in some known content (even the live action had Dick as Robin before Nightwing) which is why Dick is still known as Robin in such content even if he becomes Nightwing. But Tim Drake and Damian Wayne all had significant tenure as Robin in Titans content. In BTAS, he is mainly known as the first Robin even though he becomes Nightwing Tim Drake was also featured as Robin in that series. In the video games he is Nightwing, but Jason Todd and Tim Drake are more associated with being Robin because Tim was quite literally Robin and Jason is doing his whole death in the family stuff. Damian Wayne is robin in most batman content now a days as well. Nightwing isnt popular with Titans, he isnt well known enough as a batman side character, Robin is. And depending on the era you grew up in, that Robin mantle might be Tim Drake, Jason Todd or Damian Wayne.

What Dick needs is To be well known enough as Dick Grayson/Nightwing that his name alone is the draw. That you cant just replace Nightwing because he is integrated enough into the mythos that its not the same without him. Nightwing needs to be apart from both Robin and Batman at this point because that's the only way he will be able to move out of that spotlight. He needs his own section of DC that only he as Nightwing can occupy, even if he isnt in every single adaption of it. Nightwing needs to be a name that sells. When you think of Dick Grayson you should automatically think Nightwing, not robin, titans or batman. Nightwing isn't a sidekick, he is his own hero who should have his own unique mythos and be associated with content that other Batfamily members cant just replace him in and content that isnt created original off the back of an existing one. I know Titans are separate from Justice League, but that doesnt negate the fact that many know the teen titans as a group of sidekicks heavily associated with Justice League. Not to mention that some Titans members have actually been on Justice League.

I guess what im saying here is that as long as dick has to share his spot with other batfam members, he probably wont get a huge push. Why push Dick as Nightwing when you have Bruce as Batman that does the same thing. And why push Dick as Robin or the successor to Batman when you have 3 other viable options. Jace Fox was the Batman in Future State, why push Dick into being Batman's replacement, when they already have one? When Dick's appearances are not centered around whether Batman or another Batfam character is around, then that is when I would personally say he has made it.