Dick Grayson: Robin/Batman/Nightwing/Agent 37 Appreciation 2022

[MakeNightwingGreatAgain]

I feel like Taylor's done a decent job at setting up Dick and Babs together. I'm saying that as someone who has been very critical of this run from the start and was also worried in those opening issues with Babs making Dick look ineffectual. It's balanced out more where I am not as worried. Overall I just think Taylor's approach has been good given where Dick and Babs are at in their lives.

The main problem with Dick and Babs' relationship has been that it never made sense that the two weren't together. Even going back to before the New 52 DC never really established any good reason for their separation. Then when the New 52 happened it was just a constant stream of excuses. Dick is with someone, Babs is with someone, Dick is moving to Chicago, Dick is now "dead", Babs is with someone else now, now Dick is in Bludhaven with someone new, now Babs is with someone new again, now Dick lost his memories and is with another new person. It became very frustrating because it felt like Dick and Babs entire dynamic was introducing new roadblocks and dragging out the "will they/won't they" story as much as they could. It made me just lose all interest in comic romances.

Taylor's approach I feel like is recognizing all that and is writing it in a way where even the character's themselves are tired of all the excuses. Which makes sense as the two are written like they are older now and have all this history and old drama where they want to move on from it. In the most recent issue where Dick and Babs have their moment at the top of the building Taylor introduces a standard comic excuse. Where Dick basically says they can't be together because it is too dangerous with his identity being exposed. Then Babs literally laughs at it and says "Fuck that" and explains that they are always going to be in danger because they are superheroes so it doesn't matter. It was a very meta way of moving on from the typical comic romance tropes where Taylor is explaining that it is okay for the two of them to be together and happy as heroes. Which is an approach I liked given where they are at in their lives.

Even their reintroduction to each other I think was handled okay. You had Babs show up in Bludhaven to explain Alfred's will and the two just kind of naturally started becoming close again. It sort of wasn't treated like a big deal which I liked. It fit with two characters that have so much history together, but I can understand how some wouldn't like that. As for the how tame the relationship has been portrayed I said before that I think Taylor has made a very obvious effort to not want to sexualize Babs. She is always drawn in a lot of clothing, her new costume is designed to not show off curves, and even in the one scene she was in bed sleeping she was wearing a very baggy shirt. So I think that is the main reason why there hasn't been any "hot" moments between the two.

Also I'm kind of just ready for some progression. It is one of the main reasons why I didn't like Bludhaven or Blockbuster because it feels so regressive to me, and why I'm not looking forward to revising the Zucco drama, but with where Dick is at in his life I'm okay with him having a romance that actually progresses to something new. Be that with marriage or even kids, and looking at it very analytically I feel like Babs has the most utility for stories. She is a major character herself but can also fit into more aspects of Dick's life naturally than anyone else. I'm just very tired of new romances with where Dick is at in his life and I have no interest in revisiting Dick's 7th most interesting previous love interest or something. I'm just kind of tried of the typical comic romance and I'd be okay with Dick's love life getting some finality, or as much finality as you can have in comics these days.

I get not everyone feels that way and wants different things out of Dick's relationship stories, but I feel like given his current age and situation I think it is the most interesting option. There are really only two other romance stories I can think of that I would be interested in. One being if DC ever decides to revisit the Grayson spy series as a Black Label book where I'd like to see him and Helena together again in some sexy spy adventures. I feel like that series got cut short and there is more story to be mined with them in that setting even if Seeley did his best to try and wrap it up in his Nightwing run. The other one is probably because of Waid and Mora's very good World's Finest series where a fun teenage romance between Dick as Robin and Kara as Supergirl in the Fab Five Titans era would be interesting. There are a lot of threads to build something there with Robin and Supergirl being maybe the two most famous legacy characters in comics, both having the pressure of being in the shadow of the two biggest heroes in DC, both being very outgoing and headstrong, and the both having lost their families in tragic ways. So the two as teens might have a very interesting dynamic. Outside those two specific situations I'm not really that interested in anything else I guess.

I can see your point, but it doesn’t make sense? Wouldn’t the fact that they have found happiness with other peope and in Dick’s case, bein in love with other people more proof that Dick and Babs probably arnt meant to be together since when one is single the other is in a great relationship. And everytime they do get together, the writer literally has to shit all over their previous romances, force a break up that thats unnecessary and then retcon some unnecessary history into it to justify the dick babs narrative. Taylor is ding exactly what every other Dick babs writer has done whcih is negate the previous relationship for both characters and push a narrative that never had any real build up to it. It’s one thing if Dick and Babs actually had a good build up and neither of them were literally in love with other people like two months before they got together, but that’s not what happened. Your explanation would make better sense for someone like Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle or Tim and Dteph rather than Dick and Babs.

[Badou]

The biggest problem was always that Dick and Barbara each had their own book with different writers. So, each writer wants to develop their own cast of supporting characters.

I mean, it isn't a coincidence that the biggest development in their relationship happened when Chuck Dixon wrote Nightwing and Birds of Prey.

Now, although Barbara is part of Batgirls, the focus is mainly on Stephanie and Cassandra, while Barbara's relationship is mainly developed on Nightwing.

However, I doubt that this stability in the relationship will be maintained when Barbara gets another solo.

That is more of an out of comic reason. DC just never really established a very good in comic reason for them not being together. Even before the New 52 when Dick was Batman and operating out of Gotham again it didn't make sense. It was just this thing hanging above their characters, and then when the New 52 came the whole will they/won't they thing took even more focus where it got dragged out so much.

I get it in some respects, but I also feel like...I dunno, there's just more for them to talk about and work through? Like maybe the reasons they weren't together were BS but suddenly just getting them together when they've acted so separately in the past few years...but I don't expect Taylor to get that deep with it.

I don't know what's the issue with depicting Babs as "sexy," she's a grown, attractively, and athletically fit woman. Unless it's to avoid the male gaze (although conversely how much does this book cater to the female gaze?.

What were you expecting? A scene where they two of them have some heated argument about their past history and then make love after it to officially become a couple again? Maybe that is a little cliché but I didn't mine what Taylor did. It was more subtle. He started his run with Dick sleeping on the couch and with the two spending more and more time together they just got together and haven't really put any labels on it until now. He also tried to use the dog as an anchor for the two of them as well I guess, but I could have done without the dog entirely, lol.

I don't know. Maybe Taylor is trying to earn points with feminist twitter or something in not wanting to sexualize a female character, but downplaying Babs' "sexiness" is just something that stood out to me even though I think Redondo draws her extremely well regardless. All his female characters look amazing.

I can see your point, but it doesn’t make sense? Wouldn’t the fact that they have found happiness with other peope and in Dick’s case, bein in love with other people more proof that Dick and Babs probably arnt meant to be together since when one is single the other is in a great relationship. And everytime they do get together, the writer literally has to shit all over their previous romances, force a break up that thats unnecessary and then retcon some unnecessary history into it to justify the dick babs narrative. Taylor is ding exactly what every other Dick babs writer has done whcih is negate the previous relationship for both characters and push a narrative that never had any real build up to it. It’s one thing if Dick and Babs actually had a good build up and neither of them were literally in love with other people like two months before they got together, but that’s not what happened. Your explanation would make better sense for someone like Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle or Tim and Dteph rather than Dick and Babs.

The difference is that Dick and Babs is what gets revisited over and over. It's been a consistent thing since the 90s. Starfire and Helena B. as well to some degree which is why I put the three of them in a tier of their own. The one off romances where in 8 issues Dick is suddenly saying how much he loves this new character don't have the same weight behind it. There is a clear difference between the two of them. It is the same as Bruce saying how much he loves a Silver St. Cloud or a Julie from Snyder's run, but readers know that no romance will ever overtake Selina which is the one Bruce's stories always circle back to. But with a character like Selina who operates in the grey DC at least has in comic reason to keep breaking the two up even if readers find it frustrating.

But with Dick and Babs it becomes a lot more challenging because both interact with each other so much and are also both good guys. It is why they introduced so many of these one off love interests for the two of them, or had Dick move around so much, to create these roadblocks over coming up with a firm reason for the two not being together. All throughout the New 52 until now for most of their new love interests writers would mention or bring in Dick or Babs to establish that the two still have this ongoing dynamic regardless of who they are with. At the start of Higgins Nightwing run when Dick is with Raya Babs is brought in to be a voice of reason, in the Grayson series Helena looks into Dick's mind and sees he still loves Babs, in Seeley's Nightwing run when Dick is with Shawn Babs is again brought in to give Dick her blessing, and in the Ric run when he is with Bea Babs is again brought in to be protective of Dick and warn Bea. Babs is the character that is ever present in Dick's life. So the build up has been a constant thing all throughout these runs when you really look at it.

[Frontier]

That is more of an out of comic reason. DC just never really established a very good in comic reason for them not being together. Even before the New 52 when Dick was Batman and operating out of Gotham again it didn't make sense. It was just this thing hanging above their characters, and then when the New 52 came the whole will they/won't they thing took even more focus where it got dragged out so much.

I guess because they'd been burned before and broke up before? They always had other commitments?

What were you expecting? A scene where they two of them have some heated argument about their past history and then make love after it to officially become a couple again? Maybe that is a little cliché but I didn't mine what Taylor did. It was more subtle. He started his run with Dick sleeping on the couch and with the two spending more and more time together they just got together and haven't really put any labels on it until now. He also tried to use the dog as an anchor for the two of them as well I guess, but I could have done without the dog entirely, lol.

I don't need an argument, but I would've appreciated a more in-depth conversation about it. I feel like after everything they've been through, talking about their relationship feels like an expected step?

I don't know. Maybe Taylor is trying to earn points with feminist twitter or something in not wanting to sexualize a female character, but downplaying Babs' "sexiness" is just something that stood out to me even though I think Redondo draws her extremely well regardless. All his female characters look amazing.

Didn't stop Redondo with Starfire and Donna .

I still don't like his Batgirl suit.

[Iclifton]

The Dick and Babs pairing is one of my favorite parts of this run and I wasn't even a huge fan before hand. Id rather not see Taylor spend page time trying make sense of other peoples stories. Its not his job to clean up a mess. We know the real life reasons they were not together in the books, no reason to drum up a convoluted story reason or spend time creating unnecessary drama. Leave it to the imagination and just let them continue being happy.

I don`t need explicit sex scenes either. To me it feels like I am reading about two people in a relationship who are legit best friends. Either way we all know most (not all) of the haters would complain about the relationship no matter what. Right now the complaint is that not enough time is being spent going in depth or into specifics and validating the relationship. If Taylor did do that, the complaints would be about how he was wasting time on melodrama and bad pacing and Babs taking Dicks shine in his own book. Some people have been determined to hate this run from the beginning.

[ZuLuLu]

The Dick and Babs pairing is one of my favorite parts of this run and I wasn't even a huge fan before hand. Id rather not see Taylor spend page time trying make sense of other peoples stories. Its not his job to clean up a mess. We know the real life reasons they were not together in the books, no reason to drum up a convoluted story reason or spend time creating unnecessary drama. Leave it to the imagination and just let them continue being happy.


I don`t need explicit sex scenes either. To me it feels like I am reading about two people in a relationship who are legit best friends. Either way we all know most (not all) of the haters would complain about the relationship no matter what. Right now the complaint is that not enough time is being spent going in depth or into specifics and validating the relationship. If Taylor did do that, the complaints would be about how he was wasting time on melodrama and bad pacing and Babs taking Dicks shine in his own book. Some people have been determined to hate this run from the beginning.

Agree, I'm also not a big Dick/Babs shipper but out of all my problems with Taylor's run their relationship is not one of them, he simply writes them as good friends on/off lovers who easily slip back into old habits and I feel like that narrative works with these two because as Badou pointed out even when they are not together writer tend to show for better or worse there is an underlining connection between these two.

[MakeNightwingGreatAgain]

The difference is that Dick and Babs is what gets revisited over and over. It's been a consistent thing since the 90s. Starfire and Helena B. as well to some degree which is why I put the three of them in a tier of their own. The one off romances where in 8 issues Dick is suddenly saying how much he loves this new character don't have the same weight behind it. There is a clear difference between the two of them. It is the same as Bruce saying how much he loves a Silver St. Cloud or a Julie from Snyder's run, but readers know that no romance will ever overtake Selina which is the one Bruce's stories always circle back to. But with a character like Selina who operates in the grey DC at least has in comic reason to keep breaking the two up even if readers find it frustrating.

But with Dick and Babs it becomes a lot more challenging because both interact with each other so much and are also both good guys. It is why they introduced so many of these one off love interests for the two of them, or had Dick move around so much, to create these roadblocks over coming up with a firm reason for the two not being together. All throughout the New 52 until now for most of their new love interests writers would mention or bring in Dick or Babs to establish that the two still have this ongoing dynamic regardless of who they are with. At the start of Higgins Nightwing run when Dick is with Raya Babs is brought in to be a voice of reason, in the Grayson series Helena looks into Dick's mind and sees he still loves Babs, in Seeley's Nightwing run when Dick is with Shawn Babs is again brought in to give Dick her blessing, and in the Ric run when he is with Bea Babs is again brought in to be protective of Dick and warn Bea. Babs is the character that is ever present in Dick's life. So the build up has been a constant thing all throughout these runs when you really look at it.

For me, what you’re describing here feels more like a brother/sister kind of relationship rather than one that needs to be romantic. I would be fine with this direction and build up if it was treated like Dick and Babs were more like brother and sister, but it’s not. This is used as a justification for just throwing their romance in randomly when zero build up actually made it relevant. If if I have to read 20 years worth of cameos/small moments in multiple books to say “this relationship is just meant to be don’t ask questions” then I don’t think it should be a thing.

Dick Babs since 2004 pretty much reminds me of how Dick is with Donna back in the 80s/90s. And I would be ok with that in all honesty because Dick and Babs being more like brother and sister works better for them. In all those runs you mentioned with Shawn, Bea or Helena, dick was perfectly content and happy with the woman he was with. He even got engaged to Helena in the future of the Grayson series, he considered a future with Shawn and also was encouraged to marry Bea from Alfred. Why should we ruin those romantic developments just to push something that has maybe be hinted at in other content? Because Dick and Kory have been hinted at in multiple content too, but nobody is saying that it should be used for Kory to randomly be pushed as Dick one true love by having him break up with the woman he just said he was in love with.

[Iclifton]

For me, what you’re describing here feels more like a brother/sister kind of relationship rather than one that needs to be romantic. I would be fine with this direction and build up if it was treated like Dick and Babs were more like brother and sister, but it’s not. This is used as a justification for just throwing their romance in randomly when zero build up actually made it relevant. If if I have to read 20 years worth of cameos/small moments in multiple books to say “this relationship is just meant to be don’t ask questions” then I don’t think it should be a thing.

Dick Babs since 2004 pretty much reminds me of how Dick is with Donna back in the 80s/90s. And I would be ok with that in all honesty because Dick and Babs being more like brother and sister works better for them. In all those runs you mentioned with Shawn, Bea or Helena, dick was perfectly content and happy with the woman he was with. He even got engaged to Helena in the future of the Grayson series, he considered a future with Shawn and also was encouraged to marry Bea from Alfred. Why should we ruin those romantic developments just to push something that has maybe be hinted at in other content? Because Dick and Kory have been hinted at in multiple content too, but nobody is saying that it should be used for Kory to randomly be pushed as Dick one true love by having him break up with the woman he just said he was in love with.

I highly disagree and do not see that at all. They obviously are attracted to each other. The book just does not need to show them having sex. It has been built up. There has been a back forth for decades now at this point. It was not my favorite ship either but has been around since the Dixon era. Taylor just has not spent time on the melodrama of it. If he did, that would be what your complaining about.

Its GOOD thing to be best friends with the person your in a relationship with. In fact, that's the goal. This the healthiest relationship Dick has been in as a solo hero. It feels sustainable.

[MakeNightwingGreatAgain]

I highly disagree and do not see that at all. They obviously are attracted to each other. The book just does not need to show them having sex. It has been built up. There has been a back forth for decades now at this point. It was not my favorite ship either but has been around since the Dixon era. Taylor just has not spent time on the melodrama of it. If he did, that would be what your complaining about.

Its GOOD thing to be best friends with the person your in a relationship with. In fact, that's the goal. This the healthiest relationship Dick has been in as a solo hero. It feels sustainable.

I never mentioned Dick and babs having sex so I don’t know where that came from. But I do know that best friends to lovers is actually something that is normally frowned upon due to the fact that it can ruin the budding friendship of things happen to go south. Which is why I again prefer the brother/sister or best friends route with Dick and Babs because then you don’t have to focus on the melodrama you don’t have to force a one true love kind of romance when one isn’t needed. I know Dixon did Dick Babs, but even Dixon said himself it was a relationship based off of proximity of two attractive people and it wasn’t something that it wasn’t doesn’t to be end game at all. And I do feel like Dixon portrayed that narrative pretty nicely. Melodrama is important for long form narratives and to keep the story going. As long as it’s not too out of the box, I actually welcome it! Some characters need that melodrama to actually be interesting. It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a bad thing. In fact, I do think the lack of stakes and melodrama in Taylor’s run is actually what is hurting it the most.

[Iclifton]

I never mentioned Dick and babs having sex so I don’t know where that came from. But I do know that best friends to lovers is actually something that is normally frowned upon due to the fact that it can ruin the budding friendship of things happen to go south. Which is why I again prefer the brother/sister or best friends route with Dick and Babs because then you don’t have to focus on the melodrama you don’t have to force a one true love kind of romance when one isn’t needed. I know Dixon did Dick Babs, but even Dixon said himself it was a relationship based off of proximity of two attractive people and it wasn’t something that it wasn’t doesn’t to be end game at all. And I do feel like Dixon portrayed that narrative pretty nicely. Melodrama is important for long form narratives and to keep the story going. As long as it’s not too out of the box, I actually welcome it! Some characters need that melodrama to actually be interesting. It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a bad thing. In fact, I do think the lack of stakes and melodrama in Taylor’s run is actually what is hurting it the most.

Being with your best friend is not frowned upon. Most successful marriages refer to their spouse as their best friend.

[Felipe Silveira]

So, in Rebirth Dick became Nightwing under Slade's influence?
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[Frontier]

The Dick and Babs pairing is one of my favorite parts of this run and I wasn't even a huge fan before hand. Id rather not see Taylor spend page time trying make sense of other peoples stories. Its not his job to clean up a mess. We know the real life reasons they were not together in the books, no reason to drum up a convoluted story reason or spend time creating unnecessary drama. Leave it to the imagination and just let them continue being happy.

I don`t need explicit sex scenes either. To me it feels like I am reading about two people in a relationship who are legit best friends. Either way we all know most (not all) of the haters would complain about the relationship no matter what. Right now the complaint is that not enough time is being spent going in depth or into specifics and validating the relationship. If Taylor did do that, the complaints would be about how he was wasting time on melodrama and bad pacing and Babs taking Dicks shine in his own book. Some people have been determined to hate this run from the beginning.

I'm a fan of the pairing too, and I'm not demanding needless drama or regurgitating bad plot points...but, just to me, sometimes it all feels a little too shallow to me compared to other romance arcs I've read before. I don't think it needs to resort to melodrama to capture that.

[WonderNight]

Well I prefer if dick didn't date within the batverse not all of dicks characters important relationships and developments needs to be locked to the batverse. He'd feel like a more balanced character.

[Drako]

Well I prefer if dick didn't date within the batverse not all of dicks characters important relationships and developments needs to be locked to the batverse. He'd feel like a more balanced character.

I was looking for some interviews with Chuck Dixon about Dick and Babs and i came across a interview he did with one of thoses shitty YT channels about comics where he said that Dennis O'neal fought hard to have Dick back at the Batman editorial and the word of the guys up above was that he should not mention any Titans in continuity so he should feel like a Batman character and not a Titans character.

This mandates by editorial that DC does from time to time are so dumb. At least now looks like they learn their lesson.

[Frontier]

I was looking for some interviews with Chuck Dixon about Dick and Babs and i came across a interview he did with one of thoses shitty YT channels about comics where he said that Dennis O'neal fought hard to have Dick back at the Batman editorial and the word of the guys up above was that he should not mention any Titans in continuity so he should feel like a Batman character and not a Titans character.

This mandates by editorial that DC does from time to time are so dumb. At least now looks like they learn their lesson.

It still feels like Bat-Office > Titans these days.

[Rac7d*]

It still feels like Bat-Office > Titans these days.

its Bat Officer > Anything else

its all about the $$$$$$