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  1. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayanestar View Post
    Seeley had built a pretty interesting supporting cast for Nightwing in Rebirth but it didn't last. There are several characters that I wish would reappear like Amy, Helena, Midnighter, Shawn, Tiger, Jonathan Law and Spyral as an organization.
    As for the Titans, I would like to see Donna more often, so I would vote for her but of course there is the risk of writers abusing it and making her appear every time to save Dick, so I think someone without superpowers is probably a better option, maybe someone like Roy, but I have no idea what he is up to or someone like Jericho to re-establish Dick's former history with Deathstroke and last time Jericho also had a boyfriend, so DC might as well add him too.
    I think all of the interesting side cast Seeley implemented were in Grayson (Spyral, Skull Girls, Helena, Midnighter, Tiger). His actual Nightwing side cast was pretty bland in my opinion (Shawn, The Run Offs).

    Coming from someone who never understood the character`s hype, I actually like Barbara in the book. I think she provides a good counterpoint to Dick. I would love to see DC bring back someone like Grant Wilson as a antagonist/side character for Dick.

  2. #497
    Mighty Member ayanestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    I think all of the interesting side cast Seeley implemented were in Grayson (Spyral, Skull Girls, Helena, Midnighter, Tiger). His actual Nightwing side cast was pretty bland in my opinion (Shawn, The Run Offs).

    Coming from someone who never understood the character`s hype, I actually like Barbara in the book. I think she provides a good counterpoint to Dick. I would love to see DC bring back someone like Grant Wilson as a antagonist/side character for Dick.
    I liked both supporting casts he came up with, it made the city feel alive and made me almost like Blüdhaven. The reason why most people don't like Barbara as a supporting cast is because she fills in roles Dick could easily cover himself, some even think she makes him look less competent. This is usually what happens when DC puts characters like Tim or Barbara with Dick, he gets dumbed down. DickBabs however is popular, so it surely helps with sales but I never cared much about their relationship. I even liked Shawn and Helena better as his love interests lol but that is a subjective matter.

    I can agree with Grant Wilson, he also would be a good pick if not for Jericho. I personally also would prefer it if DC tied Spyral back to Nightwing and let him explore the spy side of DC, but I heard they turned Helena into her former counterpart instead of letting her be her own person so that of course sucks. I think I would have referred if Spyral Helena had been lost in limbo.

  3. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayanestar View Post
    I liked both supporting casts he came up with, it made the city feel alive and made me almost like Blüdhaven. The reason why most people don't like Barbara as a supporting cast is because she fills in roles Dick could easily cover himself, some even think she makes him look less competent. This is usually what happens when DC puts characters like Tim or Barbara with Dick, he gets dumbed down. DickBabs however is popular, so it surely helps with sales but I never cared much about their relationship. I even liked Shawn and Helena better as his love interests lol but that is a subjective matter.

    I can agree with Grant Wilson, he also would be a good pick if not for Jericho. I personally also would prefer it if DC tied Spyral back to Nightwing and let him explore the spy side of DC, but I heard they turned Helena into her former counterpart instead of letting her be her own person so that of course sucks. I think I would have referred if Spyral Helena had been lost in limbo.
    Yeah I can see that, but in the case of this run it has been pretty balanced. She has really only filled the role that she fills with everyone as Oracle. Its been more about the emotional support IMO.

    I like the concept of Dick having his own city but also do not mind him being free to travel. Maybe as a home base? I think it would be cool if he had villains made up from enemies from all his different roles/mythologies. Circus of Crime, Raptor, maybe an ex Spyral Agent, someone connected to his Titan days. Dick has actually faced some of the most diverse enemies mythology wise in the DCU and his history really is a gold mine.

    While I like Barbara, I agree regarding Helena. Loved their dynamic in Grayson. To be fair, people did complain about her initially as well, as her skill set is the same as Dick people thought she would take away from some of his feats.

    Different strokes I guess in regards to Seeleys Bludhaven. His take came of as cheesy to me. Funny because Grayson is one of my favorite takes on the character. I really only like Better Than Batman and Eeryone Dies at Dawn. Did not enjoy any of his other Nightwing arcs. His Dick came off as one of the least intelligent versions to me. Like all he could do was fight.

    I may be a little impartial though as I hated all of Seeleys dialogue in Nightwing. Just not my cup of tea.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 01-27-2022 at 11:11 AM.

  4. #499
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    2024 Nightwing movie rumors.
    I hope they grow

    Also a robin might be cast for the Batman trilogy, but a kid

  5. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    2024 Nightwing movie rumors.
    I hope they grow

    Also a robin might be cast for the Batman trilogy, but a kid
    Are there new rumors? I cannot find anything.

    Honestly hope they go with a director other than Chris Mckay. Thought the Tomorrow War was terrible and his pitch for his Nightwing film sounded pretty bad.

  6. #501

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    Quote Originally Posted by ayanestar View Post
    DickBabs however is popular, so it surely helps with sales but I never cared much about their relationship.
    .
    I really dont think this is true at all. Since his sales are pretty stable in the 30-50k. range even when he isnt with Babs. I dont think it helps him much at all in the sales department. He still trended downward in sales before Devin Grayson, even in Dixon era when he was dating Babs. What helps Dick in sales is when he is doing interesting stuff and being cool. What does help dick with sales i repeating his greatest hits and reducing him down to a status quo. Spyral was probably the best thing that happened to Dick's character since Tomasi's run. Idk why DC wont let him keep that. They can revamp Spyral to make it better that it was the first time and even intrdocue all new characters if they dont wanna use Helena. The point is that its a part of the universe that could only be explored with Dick at first and that is something he needs.

  7. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    I really dont think this is true at all. Since his sales are pretty stable in the 30-50k. range even when he isnt with Babs. I dont think it helps him much at all in the sales department. He still trended downward in sales before Devin Grayson, even in Dixon era when he was dating Babs. What helps Dick in sales is when he is doing interesting stuff and being cool. What does help dick with sales i repeating his greatest hits and reducing him down to a status quo. Spyral was probably the best thing that happened to Dick's character since Tomasi's run. Idk why DC wont let him keep that. They can revamp Spyral to make it better that it was the first time and even intrdocue all new characters if they dont wanna use Helena. The point is that its a part of the universe that could only be explored with Dick at first and that is something he needs.
    He was not dating Babs in the Dixon era. She was also not a regular in the book. This the best his sales have been in years and they trended up with Barbara joining the cast. Precedent says this statement is true. Tomasis run had even more Batfam then Taylors. So out of curiosity what about that run did you enjoy? I personally really liked Tomasis run as well. But it was almost all bat-related, including the villains.

    Grayson sold less and lower on the sales chart than the current run.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 01-27-2022 at 03:21 PM.

  8. #503
    Mighty Member ayanestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    2024 Nightwing movie rumors.
    I hope they grow

    Also a robin might be cast for the Batman trilogy, but a kid
    I wouldn't get my hopes up, even if they introduce a Robin in the Batman movie, it might be a completely new Robin. Reeves doesn't seem interested in the DCEU, he seems to want to focus on Batman alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Grayson sold less and lower on the sales chart than the current run.
    Grayson's sales were affected by many factors back then, but it was still a very well received comic. Then DC interfered, and the writers never got to finish the run as they had intended, so comparing his current sales to any run in the past isn't exactly fair. This is the first time in a long time, that Dick has a pretty good creative team overall, so let just hope it will last and doesn't end with interferences from the higher ups again.

  9. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayanestar View Post
    I wouldn't get my hopes up, even if they introduce a Robin in the Batman movie, it might be a completely new Robin. Reeves doesn't seem interested in the DCEU, he seems to want to focus on Batman alone.


    Grayson's sales were affected by many factors back then, but it was still a very well received comic. Then DC interfered, and the writers never got to finish the run as they had intended, so comparing his current sales to any run in the past isn't exactly fair. This is the first time in a long time, that Dick has a pretty good creative team overall, so let just hope it will last and doesn't end with interferences from the higher ups again.
    I love Grayson. I like Taylors as well, but I still enjoy Grayson more. But I do not let my preference color facts. At the end of the day, I do not care what Dick`s status quo is, as long as we have a good creative team telling the stories they want to tell.

    But my point is, the current run`s direction is working. Nightwing has never been this high on the sales chart. So I think its fair to say this is the more commercially successful status. I think it is even fair to say this has been his most successful solo run ever outside of being Batman And its not just the creative team selling it. Redondo and Taylors Suicide Squad did not sell as well either.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 01-27-2022 at 03:32 PM.

  10. #505
    Mighty Member ayanestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    But my point is, the current run`s direction is working. Nightwing has never been this high on the sales chart. So I think its fair to say this is the more commercially successful status. I think it is even fair to say this has been his most successful solo run ever outside of being Batman And its not just the creative team selling it. Redondo and Taylors Suicide Squad did not sell as well either.
    Of course, it's working, no one is saying it isn't working, however it doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. Nightwing always managed to get somewhat decent sales no matter how horrible the writing was, so combining the loyalty of his fans with a good creative team definitely helped. Suicide Squad on the other hand never had stable sales in my experience at least, so even the best creative team can only do so much but correct me if I'm wrong.

  11. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayanestar View Post
    Of course, it's working, no one is saying it isn't working, however it doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. Nightwing always managed to get somewhat decent sales no matter how horrible the writing was, so combining the loyalty of his fans with a good creative team definitely helped. Suicide Squad on the other hand never had stable sales in my experience at least, so even the best creative team can only do so much but correct me if I'm wrong.
    Some people are saying exactly that though. Most of my point is directed at MakeNightwingGreatAgain posts and other fans who just generally consider any status quo that does not cater to their preference as a failure.

    I definitely agree with you in most if not all respects. The team is a contributor to sales. So is the content of their story.

    There is always room for improvement, agreed.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 01-27-2022 at 04:33 PM.

  12. #507

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    He was not dating Babs in the Dixon era. She was also not a regular in the book. This the best his sales have been in years and they trended up with Barbara joining the cast. Precedent says this statement is true. Tomasis run had even more Batfam then Taylors. So out of curiosity what about that run did you enjoy? I personally really liked Tomasis run as well. But it was almost all bat-related, including the villains.

    Grayson sold less and lower on the sales chart than the current run.
    He definitely started dating Babs during the No Mans Land storyline which was during Dixon era. Dixon had a good two maybe one and half years writing them as a couple before Devin Grayson came in and did her version of it. Tomasi's run had more Batfam towards end because DC asked him to extend the run. The last three story arcs were batfam heavy because of the current status of Dick becoming Batman. But Tomasi's run definitely had Dick more independent of the Batfamily. Grayson started off with decent sales, just like most Nightwing runs. It started to taper off towards the end when all the mandates started happening, which is also a trend for Nightwing. His sales tend to start going down towards the end of a writer's run. Taylor's run doesnt seem to be doing any better or worse than other Nightwing runs. The only two really bad sales Nightwing had were from Devin Grayson and Ric Grayson, for their own reasons. And somehow Devin Grayson's era still managed to be part of his status quo.

    The best Nightwing runs for me are Tomasi then Seeley/Grayson and then Higgins. Because it took Dick in new, different directions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Some people are saying exactly that though. Most of my point is directed at MakeNightwingGreatAgain posts and other fans who just generally consider any status quo that does not cater to their preference as a failure.

    I definitely agree with you in most if not all respects. The team is a contributor to sales. So is the content of their story.

    There is always room for improvement, agreed.
    The thing that I and most people are pointing out is the fact that Taylor's run is reinventing a wheel that should have stayed in the 90s. How many times are we gonna have this same story told? Dixon, Grasyon, Seeley all told this version of the story. Taylor isn't doing anything new with Nightwing except just taking ideas, panels and dialogue from Dixon/Devin era and re-doing it. That's why people are saying the run isn't doing him any favors. It's a status quo that hasn't worked for Nightwing multiple times in the past, its not gonna work in the future. Taylor could have literally chosen any direction, but he chose one that Seeley already did as part of his Nightwing Rebirth. The run doesn't even get Nightwing's characterization right. I can't speak for everyone else, but I consider it a failure when after almost 30 years as Nightwing, Dick still hasn't be able to branch out as his own brand/franchise despite the fact that he has all the pieces. I consider it a failure if Nightwing is interchangeable with the other robins/batgirls or if you have to introduce him as part of titans or batman in order for him to be relevant. Nightwing should have more than a couple iconic storylines by now that he is known for, but he doesnt. Even his villains are more important o other characters than himself.

    You even said it yourself, Grayson is the preferred direction, so why cant that not the new status quo for dick? The reason why is that DC needs him to prop up batman and the rest of the batfamily or need him to be the batman of the Titans. There is always room for improvement, but people are also tired of saying that and tired of writers not even doing that. I highly doubt Taylor's run on Nightwing is gonna go anywhere significant for Nightwing. Its popcorn reading for a good time. ill give it that, but as far as being something different and improving Nightwing as a character, I don't think so.

    People are allowed to not like the status quo and or Taylor's run. I'm personally more critical of it because i feel like we regurgitate this same convo about the same problem Nightwing has had since the 90s.

  13. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    He definitely started dating Babs during the No Mans Land storyline which was during Dixon era. Dixon had a good two maybe one and half years writing them as a couple before Devin Grayson came in and did her version of it. Tomasi's run had more Batfam towards end because DC asked him to extend the run. The last three story arcs were batfam heavy because of the current status of Dick becoming Batman. But Tomasi's run definitely had Dick more independent of the Batfamily. Grayson started off with decent sales, just like most Nightwing runs. It started to taper off towards the end when all the mandates started happening, which is also a trend for Nightwing. His sales tend to start going down towards the end of a writer's run. Taylor's run doesnt seem to be doing any better or worse than other Nightwing runs. The only two really bad sales Nightwing had were from Devin Grayson and Ric Grayson, for their own reasons. And somehow Devin Grayson's era still managed to be part of his status quo.

    The best Nightwing runs for me are Tomasi then Seeley/Grayson and then Higgins. Because it took Dick in new, different directions.


    The thing that I and most people are pointing out is the fact that Taylor's run is reinventing a wheel that should have stayed in the 90s. How many times are we gonna have this same story told? Dixon, Grasyon, Seeley all told this version of the story. Taylor isn't doing anything new with Nightwing except just taking ideas, panels and dialogue from Dixon/Devin era and re-doing it. That's why people are saying the run isn't doing him any favors. It's a status quo that hasn't worked for Nightwing multiple times in the past, its not gonna work in the future. Taylor could have literally chosen any direction, but he chose one that Seeley already did as part of his Nightwing Rebirth. The run doesn't even get Nightwing's characterization right. I can't speak for everyone else, but I consider it a failure when after almost 30 years as Nightwing, Dick still hasn't be able to branch out as his own brand/franchise despite the fact that he has all the pieces. I consider it a failure if Nightwing is interchangeable with the other robins/batgirls or if you have to introduce him as part of titans or batman in order for him to be relevant. Nightwing should have more than a couple iconic storylines by now that he is known for, but he doesnt. Even his villains are more important o other characters than himself.

    You even said it yourself, Grayson is the preferred direction, so why cant that not the new status quo for dick? The reason why is that DC needs him to prop up batman and the rest of the batfamily or need him to be the batman of the Titans. There is always room for improvement, but people are also tired of saying that and tired of writers not even doing that. I highly doubt Taylor's run on Nightwing is gonna go anywhere significant for Nightwing. Its popcorn reading for a good time. ill give it that, but as far as being something different and improving Nightwing as a character, I don't think so.

    People are allowed to not like the status quo and or Taylor's run. I'm personally more critical of it because i feel like we regurgitate this same convo about the same problem Nightwing has had since the 90s.
    Grayson sales tapered off before any editorial mandates. It fell out of the top 50 at issue 9. In terms of doing something new, giving Dick billions and the Alfred Pennyworth foundation is new. You may not be a fan, but it is. Tomasi`s run on Nightwing was bat centric the entire time. What's your favorite arc? Freefall heavily features Talia and bat characters. The very next arcs transition to Dick taking over as Batman. Higgins run, is the most bat centric run of all time.

    Even while, technically together, Barbara was not featured in the book even close to as regularly, which is the point. Her presence brings her fans and does help to provide sales.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 01-27-2022 at 06:26 PM.

  14. #509
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayanestar View Post
    I could be wrong, but it feels like Bendis messed up a lot of things and then just left? Is Bendis really still such a big deal that DC trusted him this much? I'm glad I missed his time at DC because it doesn't look like I would enjoy most of his work
    Far as I know he didn't just take off. He did a sequel to Event Leviathan, but I didn't read it. Or maybe he's still doing it and the mini hasn't finished yet? I feel like there were delays of some kind so maybe we're still waiting on the final issue. In any case, I don't think Bendis bailed on the effort. It just wasn't popular. The goal of consolidating DC's spy groups and streamlining that stuff into something usable was a good idea, but what we actually got doesn't seem to have struck a chord.

    And the whole thing started when the Ric era was in full swing so Nightwing didn't have anything to do with it, which did a lot to kill my own interest in it.

    I don't know what kind of stuff you like but I'd recommend taking a look at Naomi by Bendis, Walker, and Campbell. In a certain way it's vaguely similar to Taylor's Nightwing run; character focused, low on pointless action scenes, and a slow burn...but a very well executed one with some of the best art on the shelves.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  15. #510
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    "Grayson sold less and lower on the sales chart than the current run."

    Yeah no this is missing context

    This was the time when nothing dc outside of bat'fam' (fam wasn't selling all that well either)was selling well, Marvel was getting cute with their constant #1 issues Grayson was also battling the 'i won't read until nightwing is back' sentiment and despite all that it was outselling Batgirl, Aquaman ,red hood, green lantern, Superman and wonder woman (part of it was 'nothing was selling outside of batfam) all those titles had far more promotion then Grayson and yet it was outselling everything it had no business outselling, it was the reason why rebirth happened so the sales point is unfair to hold against Grayson considering it did what it did without much promotion, your comparing Grayson with nightwing, an alias that has a much longer history and appearences in animated universe and tvverse, nightwing should be outselling Grayson, I just think Grayson gives dick a higher ceiling then nightwing does as far as being relevance in the greater dcu
    Last edited by yash; 01-28-2022 at 07:15 AM.

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