Dick Grayson: Robin/Batman/Nightwing/Agent 37 Appreciation 2022

[Ascended]

I'm not saying you'll necessarily get a Nightwing Sinestro Corps War or Blackest Night, but his Throne Of Atlantis or Shadow War doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility.

I don't dare dream of how DC may try to capitalize on the current success....but I really hope they make a solid, well considered attempt. Dick has seen a lot more quality effort and attention in the past year since the new regime got their feet under them, and I don't think it's as wildly unlikely as it used to be that we'll see Nightwing continue to get a soft, quiet push as long as the title keeps performing like it has been. Maybe even a louder push, if DC is brave and smart enough to strike while things are hot.

Sales on comics are like a small testing sample of the general audience.

Sure but that's besides the point I was making; Dick's sales are remarkably solid given the crap DC has done to him and the general lack of effort they put in, and don't make a good argument against the character.

A film with Dick as Nightwing in Bludhaven would do better box office wise then him as a spy.

Conjecture.

And I have no issue with Dick being in Bludhaven, it's my preferred city for him to be in when he's not globetrotting. Now, if you were gonna say that a "Nightwing" film would do better than a "Grayson" film, I'd agree; the Nightwing brand is far stronger than "Grayson" but if you took a Grayson-spy plotline, put him in the costume, and called the movie "Nightwing" it wouldn't make much of a difference to the box office; Bludhaven isn't such a well known part of Dick's status quo that general audiences would miss it or refuse to see the film without it.

Barbara and her relationship with Dick, is a factor in sales. So is Bludhaven and every other story and creative team decision. They are all contributors. This is why we keep coming back to this setting. It IS Dicks long term status quo.

Wasn't arguing that. Whether people like it or not Bludhaven has been Dick's stomping grounds for twenty years and isn't likely to go anywhere (for long).

It is fact. This run has been more financially successful than Grayson.

Of course, it's called Nightwing and fans pay more attention to the name. Taylor's a well known and popular creator (which King and Seely weren't back then). The run has been hailed as a proper return to form and not a sudden status quo shift forced by a pointless Event where Dick's primary role was "damsel in distress." The fact that the critical reception has been equal to Grayson says a lot; that was a much loved run once people got over the lack of a costume and the title change.

Not sure what you think I was saying here. I'm quite satisfied with Dick's treatment of late. I was just saying that his sales are not an argument against him, they're an argument *for* him, because he does well for himself regardless of creator or setting. As for larger media, the details matter a lot less than the quality of the people making the thing and the success of the marketing campaign. A Nightwing flick would make whatever it would make with or without Bludhaven.

[Rac7d*]

If they do a few films with Nightwing perhaps they could transition him to agent 37

[Iclifton]

Not sure what you think I was saying here. I'm quite satisfied with Dick's treatment of late. I was just saying that his sales are not an argument against him, they're an argument *for* him, because he does well for himself regardless of creator or setting. As for larger media, the details matter a lot less than the quality of the people making the thing and the success of the marketing campaign. A Nightwing flick would make whatever it would make with or without Bludhaven.

I was not arguing you specifically. You just happened to be whom I quoted because you were the last response and I thought you raised an interesting point. However, I would say my box office point is less conjecture and more precedent. Spy films do not typically do as well as Super Hero films box office wise.

My only point is the current run shows that Dicks current status quo has been more successful financially than Grayson. And this point was not directed specifically at you.

[Iclifton]

If they do a few films with Nightwing perhaps they could transition him to agent 37

That would be great. I would love to see a Grayson vs Midnighter fight on screen.

[yash]

Last time a great spy movie came along it did a billion dollars so I don't buy the "spy movies don't do as good" trope

I already have addressed why holding 'nw sells better than Grayson" is an incomplete fact and completely unfair so I won't bother reiterating my points about that

And the whole 'he didn't want to be a spy' is not even a problem, just expand the scale of conspiracy and the stakes and put dick in the position where continuing to be a spy would be the more responsible thing to do and there goes that problem

My problem with dick near bat'fam' is how redundant he keeps getting and the bat editors actively do it, everytime something major happens well Batman will be there and he can't upstage Batman which fair enough he's Batman most characters in dcu can't upstage him but then he can't do much at all, he can't be the tech guy despite operating bat computer and being a spy working with tech because tim is the tech guy, can't be the detective because tim is the detective too, hell he can't even be the charming slick talking guy because they gave that away to jason because apparantly bat'fam' member with guns isn't enough and the cooler fighting moments goes to Damien because without that he's just Emma Frost without powers, so all that's left is being 'heart' of bat'fam' which on best days is an empty platitude and on worst days it means he's about to get punched in the face by the guy/gal they are trying to setup as the next big thing, they have already taken away the 'he's the successor' part of the equation now that we know that Jace is a thing, so really what is the point of him being there? Dick Grayson being dick Grayson and doing cool things I think will always sell, hell he became ric and it still sold so if that dumpsterfire sells then you can't tell me that bludhaven and Barbra are this big factor in why it is selling, I am of the opinion that you write dick Grayson in character doing epic things it will sell, I just think things like bludhaven and barbra put a hard cap on how epic things can get, I don't even think it has to be a spy route but just Get him in competent hands of someone outside the bat editorial who actually enjoys writing him and i think a lot of unique and fun stories will come out of it and right now is just simply not possible

[Iclifton]

But he is a bat character so it comes with the territory.

I have already explained how saying Nightwing sells better than Grayson makes complete sense and holds up and do not want to reiterate my points.

But personally he wants to be a superhero. So it would be against his character for him to remain a spy indefinitely. On average a Superhero movie does better than a spy movie. I think it could do well after he is NIghtwing so the audience understands what he is giving up. But a "Nightwing" is going to do better than a "Grayson" movie.

[Avi]

Dick as a spy/agent works well, I think. Grayson wasn't Dick's first-ever undercover job, and Dick is more cunning than fandom gives him credit for. Imo, the espionage corner more than any other could keep Dick from getting (even more) watered down.

Grayson would’ve sold a lot better if it was called “Agent Nightwing” or some such, and that’s still the route I’d probably go with it. Basic gist of Dick joining an organization to bring it down from the inside is still easily adaptable enough, and I do hope we get to see a take on it one day.

Absolutely. Honestly, Dick dismantling organizations from the inside should be his thing.

Last time a great spy movie came along it did a billion dollars so I don't buy the "spy movies don't do as good" trope

I already have addressed why holding 'nw sells better than Grayson" is an incomplete fact and completely unfair so I won't bother reiterating my points about that

And the whole 'he didn't want to be a spy' is not even a problem, just expand the scale of conspiracy and the stakes and put dick in the position where continuing to be a spy would be the more responsible thing to do and there goes that problem

My problem with dick near bat'fam' is how redundant he keeps getting and the bat editors actively do it, everytime something major happens well Batman will be there and he can't upstage Batman which fair enough he's Batman most characters in dcu can't upstage him but then he can't do much at all, he can't be the tech guy despite operating bat computer and being a spy working with tech because tim is the tech guy, can't be the detective because tim is the detective too, hell he can't even be the charming slick talking guy because they gave that away to jason because apparantly bat'fam' member with guns isn't enough and the cooler fighting moments goes to Damien because without that he's just Emma Frost without powers, so all that's left is being 'heart' of bat'fam' which on best days is an empty platitude and on worst days it means he's about to get punched in the face by the guy/gal they are trying to setup as the next big thing, they have already taken away the 'he's the successor' part of the equation now that we know that Jace is a thing, so really what is the point of him being there? Dick Grayson being dick Grayson and doing cool things I think will always sell, hell he became ric and it still sold so if that dumpsterfire sells then you can't tell me that bludhaven and Barbra are this big factor in why it is selling, I am of the opinion that you write dick Grayson in character doing epic things it will sell, I just think things like bludhaven and barbra put a hard cap on how epic things can get, I don't even think it has to be a spy route but just Get him in competent hands of someone outside the bat editorial who actually enjoys writing him and i think a lot of unique and fun stories will come out of it and right now is just simply not possible

What I would give for an actual epic Nightwing run. I agree that Blüdhaven and Barbara keep a cap on things, especially as they are written right now, but it also has a lot to do with creators not wanting to or not being allowed to tell those kinds of stories with Dick. When Percy geared up to tell his presumably far-reaching Nightwing story he was able to put Babs and Blüd in the background.

Though, I think Blüd has possibilities to be epic. The Judge seemed as if he was one step away from being an Eldritch Abomination, so a rematch between him and Dick could be something different and big.

The Batman Webtoon certainly isn't going to help Dick's standing in the family and eventually, the webtoon is going to affect "real" canon through fandom.

[yash]

But he is a bat character so it comes with the territory.

I have already explained how saying Nightwing sells better than Grayson makes complete sense and holds up and do not want to reiterate my points.

But personally he wants to be a superhero. So it would be against his character for him to remain a spy indefinitely. On average a Superhero movie does better than a spy movie. I think it could do well after he is NIghtwing so the audience understands what he is giving up. But a "Nightwing" is going to do better than a "Grayson" movie.

But that's my point, certain characters need the batfamily to be relevant, dick is not one of them

?? This just sounds weird 'saying NW sells better than Grayson makes sense" did I say it did not? I can see the numbers too and see that this run sells better, You say that as if that is all there is to it and I say it's incomplete and unfair which leads you to a conclusion that is simply not factual

Personally Peter Parker wanted to make money, lost someone important and realised there are things only he can do and he should do them because that's the responsible thing to do there goes that redundant point, that's not my point, my point isn't that I want him to be the spy, I want him away from batfamily, if that can happen without giving up nightwing then I'm cool with that, if titans was a viable options we wouldn't be having this discussion, Grayson worked so it keeps getting brought back up after all these years precisely because it worked so well even though the current run is working as well, everyone has seen some semblance of this song and dance before, their is just ceiling as far as entertaining/epic stories go that nightwing in bludhaven can't break

[Godlike13]

In todays trends Dick saving a puppy is more epic to general audiences then him saving the world. It’s not like Dick is only in Nightwing. He is also in 2 Titans book dealing with more traditional “epic” level situations, yet his solo with Babs and Bludhaven is far outshining both. “Epic” is all about perspective and creators ability to sell their story, and what they have him do to the readers.

[ayanestar]

In todays trends Dick saving a puppy is more epic to general audiences then him saving the world. It’s not like Dick is only in Nightwing. He is also in 2 Titans book dealing with more traditional “epic” level situations, yet his solo with Babs and Bludhaven is far outshining both. “Epic” is all about perspective and creators ability to sell their story, and what they have him do to the readers.

I have yet to hear anything good about one of the two Titans books, and the other one is apparently not even canon, so that is a weird comparison to make.

[yash]

In todays trends Dick saving a puppy is more epic to general audiences then him saving the world. It’s not like Dick is only in Nightwing. He is also in 2 Titans book dealing with more traditional “epic” level situations, yet his solo with Babs and Bludhaven is far outshining both. “Epic” is all about perspective and creators ability to sell their story, and what they have him do to the readers.

If you have been unfortunate enough like me to actually give the titans book a chance then you have to know that the guy in NW costume over their is not dick but just another generic human leader in superheroe team #305 who also happens to be highly incompetent, he's not even the worst victim, not one single character in that book is competent or in character for that matter, everything I said is contingent upon 'you write dick Grayson in character doing epic things it will sell' the 'in character' part is very important you know lol

[Ascended]

I was not arguing you specifically. You just happened to be whom I quoted because you were the last response and I thought you raised an interesting point. However, I would say my box office point is less conjecture and more precedent. Spy films do not typically do as well as Super Hero films box office wise.

Ah okay, that makes more sense.

A few exceptions aside you're not wrong about superhero films outperforming spy films but would a Nightwing spy film be considered a spy film or a superhero one? Seems to me that regardless of other elements in the story, if he's in a costume and called Nightwing people will consider it a superhero movie, and if he were Agent 37 it'd be seen as a spy film.

But I wonder why it couldn't be both. Nightwing: Superspy practically writes itself. I think if DC had spun the Grayson series a little differently, letting Dick keep his suit and his name, it likely would have been the most successful run he's ever had, combining the best of both worlds into something that would play into Dick's strengths and develop his own mythos and story without completely removing him from the Bat sphere of influence, which as much as we may hate it, does help the character when DC doesn't go overboard into "sidekick forever" territory. And Bludhaven and the other stuff that's managed to stick in his mythos could easily still be used (in comics or other adaptations), since even a world traveling superspy needs a place to rest and call home.

In any case we're getting pretty far ahead of ourselves aren't we? Last I knew the Nightwing film was dead in the water and the best we *might* get is a supporting role in a Batgirl film that, going by DC/WB's history, might do more harm than good to all involved. And for me that's always the rub; I'd love a good Nightwing movie....but WB struggles greatly with DC films and barely half of them are even watchable, much less "good." I'd rather have no Nightwing movie at all, than one that sucks and makes people wonder why anyone would waste their time with the character.

[Iclifton]

But that's my point, certain characters need the batfamily to be relevant, dick is not one of them

?? This just sounds weird 'saying NW sells better than Grayson makes sense" did I say it did not? I can see the numbers too and see that this run sells better, You say that as if that is all there is to it and I say it's incomplete and unfair which leads you to a conclusion that is simply not factual

Personally Peter Parker wanted to make money, lost someone important and realised there are things only he can do and he should do them because that's the responsible thing to do there goes that redundant point, that's not my point, my point isn't that I want him to be the spy, I want him away from batfamily, if that can happen without giving up nightwing then I'm cool with that, if titans was a viable options we wouldn't be having this discussion, Grayson worked so it keeps getting brought back up after all these years precisely because it worked so well even though the current run is working as well, everyone has seen some semblance of this song and dance before, their is just ceiling as far as entertaining/epic stories go that nightwing in bludhaven can't break

Yes, but I do not want Dick to be doing something he hates indefinitely. It kills the stakes when you know he will never win. Dicks relevance and hook is that he is Batfam, without his original Robin role, he doesn't have an audience. Even Grayson was heavily Batman influenced. My point being, comparing the sales is completely fair. Grayson did receive quite a push and had a good well received creative team. Its critical reception and sales did not match the current Nightwing. Point being it is a very fair comparison. Precedent says this status quo is the more successful route for DC comics.

Overall, I just think alot of Nightwing fans are unfairly criticizing DC for going back to the current status quo when it has proven to be very successful. There is nothing wrong with a more grounded character driven approach. Everyone has their preferences, I do. But acting like Bludhaven, Barbara and all the other elements used in Taylors run are damaging to Dick is false. And that is the exact perception certain people are trying to push. There is literally no evidence that Grayson is the smarter status quo for Dick from a business perspective.

[Iclifton]

That would be great. I do think we need to see him in action as a part of the super hero community first tho so we understand how special he is as an agent. It would also highlight how out of place he is which is why the run was so good.

Agreed, I would rather have no film than a bad Nightwing! I do not think he could handle another bad adaption. I would love if he incorporated what he learned as a spy to become an international Superhero operating out of Bludhaven. Best of both worlds! I feel like Seely tried this but it ended feeling kind of forced after Better Than Batman. It was obvious he was not passionate about Bludhaven and his Dick just "happened" to go on missions outside of the city. It was not his mission statement.

EDIT: Sorry Ascended this post was meant in response to you!

[yash]

Yes, but I do not want Dick to be doing something he hates indefinitely. It kills the stakes when you know he will never win. Dicks relevance and hook is that he is Batfam, without his original Robin role, he doesn't have an audience. Even Grayson was heavily Batman influenced. My point being, comparing the sales is completely fair. Grayson did receive quite a push and had a good well received creative team. Its critical reception and sales did not match the current Nightwing. Point being it is a very fair comparison. Precedent says this status quo is the more successful route for DC comics.

Overall, I just think alot of Nightwing fans are unfairly criticizing DC for going back to the current status quo when it has proven to be very successful. There is nothing wrong with a more grounded character driven approach. Everyone has their preferences, I do. But acting like Bludhaven, Barbara and all the other elements used in Taylors run are damaging to Dick is false. And that is the exact perception certain people are trying to push. There is literally no evidence that Grayson is the smarter status quo for Dick from a business perspective.

No, dick's relevance comes from being 'not just' a Part of the batfamily, nightwing's whole point was trying to grow out of Batman's shadow and be his own superhero and person, before new 52 he had connections and a positive relationship with every major hero, that was his appeal, he quite literally had a sizeable audience when He was neither Robin or nightwing so I don't know what you are cooking, and now you are even revising history with 'it recieved a push' it received it at the tail end of it when it outdid expectations and it came in form of Robin eternal crossover where he got punched around by Harper, yeah push, again it's unfair considering the 'i won't read until NW is back' sentiment was loud at the time, and this 'well recieved' team wasn't well received untill Grayson became a thing, before that they were unproven dudes who proved themselves through Grayson, it's the reason why King and Mikel got promoted to Batman after it ended and Seeley became the sole writer of nightwing which was a sort of promotion as he didn't have to split the pay, you are either caught up in hindsight or forgetting a lot, putting those guys on this was not a push, it was a 'lets see what u guys got' and they went to bigger and better things just like most good NW writters always do

And you keep mistaking something about what I'm saying, I'm not saying NW/bludhaven/Barbra is damaging dick, I'm saying it puts a ceiling on how great stories can be told, if ric Grayson couldn't damage dick Grayson then barbra and bludhaven can't do all that much, as far as evidence, again you keep ommiting the context of that run, it was outselling everything not named batman and Harley, not because it was selling like hot cakes but because this was the time when dc was not selling well, it's the reason why rebirth happened, Grayson was one of DC's bright spots it certainly had more critical acclaim then this nightwing run did considering it was winning comic Book awards in Japan of all places, you again keep saying NW is a smarter business decision because it sells better, letts ignore the obstacles in Grayson's way for a moment, as I said before NW should be outselling Grayson, it has years of media appearences over it it should outsell it but if smarter business perspective is dictated by just what sells well right now then kaldur is not a smarter choice, neighter is Jace, neither is Yara, they are all getting outsold by nightwing of all things and yet dc keeps pushing them, it's precisely because it's not just about what sells right now that dc keeps pushing them, you keep saying there is no evidence that Grayson is the smarter business decision, I say you have no evidence to suggest that Nightwing in bludhaven can ever produce a story atc as good as 'the gauntlet' because by the time a writer builds a cast of great villains someone will decide that some of these are too good for just NW, it's not like we haven't seen this happen before, you keep making statments as if they are facts when they aren't and answer questions that I never asked, all I'm talking about is his ceiling as far as story potential goes in this setting and the potential for relevance in greater dcu, i don't see it, you can disagree but don't pass off your opinions by insisting they are facts particularly when you keep missing key details