Dick Grayson: Robin/Batman/Nightwing/Agent 37 Appreciation 2022

[MakeNightwingGreatAgain]

Dick didn't even know Bea as Dick Grayson. Despite Jurgans nonsense. Again, she became the focal point of a run that was driving readers away. Devin Grayson's work wasn't continued, Nightwing Year One isn't particularly referenced, and the Ric run was far more reviled and recent then either. There is no sense in trying to continue something that was proven detrimental. Ideally you want writers to carry on the stuff of worth. Ditching the **** and expanding on the things that they think worked. Filtering the mythos. Keeping the good, letting go of the bad. Unfortunately they too often other let go of everything but that doesn't they should continue everything either. They have to have an awareness of what to continue and what not too, otherwise you end of with years of Ric.

Ric is a instance where a new writer is suppose to go scorched earth. They should have done it 6 issues in, but instead they let writers who didn't care and had no awareness expand on it for 2 years. Tanking his book and threating the viability of the character. You can't seriously be asking why we aren't getting more Ric.

I get what you're saying, but both Nightwing Year One and Devin Grayson are still pushed and referenced even today. I mean heck, they stil use Burnside for Batgirl even though that recived much negativity. And Dick DID know Bea as Dick. He even had the line where he still loved her and wanted to be her but broke up with her to protect her. I doubt keeping Bea around would tank his book. I can see keeping Ric tanking, but Bea? She was the best part of Ric Grayson. But I only used her as an example. But I do see your point, I just dont agree with it.

[OOPS]

So what exactly did he have good going with Bea? Of Dick's love interests I found Bea to be the least developed. What exactly did you value about that relationship?

I don't like the current run, but the Babs relationship isn't one of the weaknesses I see in the run. I feel a healthy relationship can, actually should be presented in the context of tension within the story. A relationship doesn't have to be presented as Bat/Cat melodrama to have texture.

[Drako]

Y'all hate Tom Taylor's run so much that now you pretend that he should be building around what was created by Scott Lobdell in the Ric Grayson arc. It's baffling.

[Mantis-Ray]

I gotta say what surprised me most about Bea is that she was black.

Like everything I heard about her indicated that she was that kind of generic white blond damsel who tend to be romantic interests for "tough guy" characters like Ric.

[thwhtGuardian]

I get what you're saying, but both Nightwing Year One and Devin Grayson are still pushed and referenced even today. I mean heck, they stil use Burnside for Batgirl even though that recived much negativity. And Dick DID know Bea as Dick. He even had the line where he still loved her and wanted to be her but broke up with her to protect her. I doubt keeping Bea around would tank his book. I can see keeping Ric tanking, but Bea? She was the best part of Ric Grayson. But I only used her as an example. But I do see your point, I just dont agree with it.

Burnside was pretty well liked...

[Drako]

I gotta say what surprised me most about Bea is that she was black.

Like everything I heard about her indicated that she was that kind of generic white blond damsel who tend to be romantic interests for "tough guy" characters like Ric.

She wasn't the worst part of the Ric arc, but it's pretty easy to understand why the next creative team wanted to start fresh after that mess.

[Godlike13]

I get what you're saying, but both Nightwing Year One and Devin Grayson are still pushed and referenced even today. I mean heck, they stil use Burnside for Batgirl even though that recived much negativity. And Dick DID know Bea as Dick. He even had the line where he still loved her and wanted to be her but broke up with her to protect her. I doubt keeping Bea around would tank his book. I can see keeping Ric tanking, but Bea? She was the best part of Ric Grayson. But I only used her as an example. But I do see your point, I just dont agree with it.

Burnside for Batgirl was a hit, despite some vocal negativity. While we don't really often see many instances where Nightwing Year One or Devin Grayson are still pushed and referenced. Dick didn't know Bea, he was Ric. After 2 years of having Ric tell any one and every one that he wasn't Dick, Jurgans poor attempt to walk his garbage back at the very end was just more tone deaf nonsense that made little sense. Bea had no experiences with Dick as Dick. She fell love with a mental trauma victim, who's entire purpose was to rejected and demean all the characteristics of who he use to be. Bea ultimately came to be what Ric was about. Readers ran from that run. Keeping anything about Ric around, let alone the biggest staple of that run, when reader were running from it would completely undercut this run and the message it was trying to sell. Which is many was, this is not Ric, the Nightwing you like is back, so please come back.

[Badou]

And this is the point right here. This is why Nightwing doesnt have a side cast that is carried on. Dick had some of his worst content supported and kept in his canon and made to actually work. Why cant Bea be taken forward and made to work? Dick already admitted he loved Bea as Dick Grayson? Why couldn't we continue that and see what we can do with it instead of erasing it. Sure, it was from a terrible storyline, but so was the Dick Babs stuff from Devin Grayson. So was the Romani retcon from Devin. So was the Nightwing Year One stuff. Dick and Bea broke up because Tom Taylor's run was about Nightwing and Batgirl. IT was a complete retcon of Ric Grayson and I Can accept that. But at the same time, isnt that part of the problem with Nightwing? None of the previous bad stuff that made it into Nightwing canon has stopped readers or support before, what is so different about Bea? Or anything from the previous rebirth?

Dick broke up with Bea before Taylor started his run, but the difference is that characters of Bea's level don't matter. That's the hard truth. They add nothing to a character like Nightwing overall. They are there to fill out page space, but they don't elevate Dick's story or create lasting impact. It is the same with characters from all sorts of creator's runs. Dick's sister from Taylor will fall to irrelevance too at some point, which I am fine with. Since I don't think characters like that matter in the end. So seeing Dick in a romance with a character of Babs' level is always going to elevate the impact because of how large a character she is and the history they share.

With current comics it is very rare to create new original characters that have any kind of lasting impact because most readers want to see already established characters interacting, and there are way too many established characters now to fit in the ongoing books DC has. Readers like seeing characters that have weight and history to them doing things together because it feels like it matters more. The perfect example of this is the Red Hood and the Outlaws series. If that series was just Jason creating a team of original characters it probably wouldn't have lasted as long, but because the characters were Roy, Starfire, Artemis, and Bizarro the Outlaws brand has persisted.

I'm not saying that creators shouldn't keep trying to create new characters, maybe some will beat the odds and stick around, but the stories and interactions that readers gravitate to are ones with major established characters. I've said this before but what Nightwing needs is not more original characters that readers will forget about, but actually well crafted stories with some top tier established villains. That is what will elevate the character's stories, and characters like a Bea, Svoboda, Clancy, and so many other in the end have little to no impact overall.

[Felipe Silveira]

Dick's two big stories, first Robin and dating Batgirl.
Good luck to the producer who tries to sell such a character to Zaslav

[MakeNightwingGreatAgain]

Dick broke up with Bea before Taylor started his run, but the difference is that characters of Bea's level don't matter. That's the hard truth. They add nothing to a character like Nightwing overall. They are there to fill out page space, but they don't elevate Dick's story or create lasting impact. It is the same with characters from all sorts of creator's runs. Dick's sister from Taylor will fall to irrelevance too at some point, which I am fine with. Since I don't think characters like that matter in the end. So seeing Dick in a romance with a character of Babs' level is always going to elevate the impact because of how large a character she is and the history they share.

With current comics it is very rare to create new original characters that have any kind of lasting impact because most readers want to see already established characters interacting, and there are way too many established characters now to fit in the ongoing books DC has. Readers like seeing characters that have weight and history to them doing things together because it feels like it matters more. The perfect example of this is the Red Hood and the Outlaws series. If that series was just Jason creating a team of original characters it probably wouldn't have lasted as long, but because the characters were Roy, Starfire, Artemis, and Bizarro the Outlaws brand has persisted.

I'm not saying that creators shouldn't keep trying to create new characters, maybe some will beat the odds and stick around, but the stories and interactions that readers gravitate to are ones with major established characters. I've said this before but what Nightwing needs is not more original characters that readers will forget about, but actually well crafted stories with some top tier established villains. That is what will elevate the character's stories, and characters like a Bea, Svoboda, Clancy, and so many other in the end have little to no impact overall.

So my question to this is, how can you create characters with a history and lasting impact if you dont give them the chance to actually make it that far? Dick's history with Babs was just as bad as Clancy or Bea before Dixon actually took it somewhere. Starfire and some other titans were entirely new characters when they first met Dick? I mean Damian was just a minor throw away character until Morrison brought him back. Catwoman was missing from editorial for like 10-15 years before they brought her back to prominence. A character cant make impact and last long, if that character isnt given a chance to do so. It's like asking why you didnt win the race when you stopped running after the lap. People want new and exciting things with Nightwing, but then they dont support anything new with him. But I guess this is the cruz of the problem with western comics as a whole.

For me, a large part of the fandom wants to be done with dick babs vs dick kory. But then dont support Dick Shawn or Dick Bea. IF you really want things to change, wouldnt the best start to be supporting the new changes? Instead of rejecting them if they are bad, we can make them better as long as its not rooted in something like racism.

[Felipe Silveira]

Dick broke up with Bea before Taylor started his run, but the difference is that characters of Bea's level don't matter. That's the hard truth. They add nothing to a character like Nightwing overall. They are there to fill out page space, but they don't elevate Dick's story or create lasting impact. It is the same with characters from all sorts of creator's runs. Dick's sister from Taylor will fall to irrelevance too at some point, which I am fine with. Since I don't think characters like that matter in the end. So seeing Dick in a romance with a character of Babs' level is always going to elevate the impact because of how large a character she is and the history they share.

With current comics it is very rare to create new original characters that have any kind of lasting impact because most readers want to see already established characters interacting, and there are way too many established characters now to fit in the ongoing books DC has. Readers like seeing characters that have weight and history to them doing things together because it feels like it matters more. The perfect example of this is the Red Hood and the Outlaws series. If that series was just Jason creating a team of original characters it probably wouldn't have lasted as long, but because the characters were Roy, Starfire, Artemis, and Bizarro the Outlaws brand has persisted.

I'm not saying that creators shouldn't keep trying to create new characters, maybe some will beat the odds and stick around, but the stories and interactions that readers gravitate to are ones with major established characters. I've said this before but what Nightwing needs is not more original characters that readers will forget about, but actually well crafted stories with some top tier established villains. That is what will elevate the character's stories, and characters like a Bea, Svoboda, Clancy, and so many other in the end have little to no impact overall.

You used a bad example.
Lobdell's Red Hood lasted because he was friends with Didio and Berganza, sold less than Ric Grayson.

[MakeNightwingGreatAgain]

You used a bad example.
Lobdell's Red Hood lasted because he was friends with Didio and Berganza, sold less than Ric Grayson.

and werent jason roy something that carried over from that run as well?

[thwhtGuardian]

So my question to this is, how can you create characters with a history and lasting impact if you dont give them the chance to actually make it that far? Dick's history with Babs was just as bad as Clancy or Bea before Dixon actually took it somewhere. Starfire and some other titans were entirely new characters when they first met Dick? I mean Damian was just a minor throw away character until Morrison brought him back. Catwoman was missing from editorial for like 10-15 years before they brought her back to prominence. A character cant make impact and last long, if that character isnt given a chance to do so. It's like asking why you didnt win the race when you stopped running after the lap. People want new and exciting things with Nightwing, but then they dont support anything new with him. But I guess this is the cruz of the problem with western comics as a whole.

For me, a large part of the fandom wants to be done with dick babs vs dick kory. But then dont support Dick Shawn or Dick Bea. IF you really want things to change, wouldnt the best start to be supporting the new changes? Instead of rejecting them if they are bad, we can make them better as long as its not rooted in something like racism.

They don't support them because they were part of really bad stories...I don't get what's hard about that.

On top of that is the issue that if you use those supporting characters from the last run you now likely have to pay those other creators, and with profits thin as it is there is no need to add more sunk costs especially when there are other characters you can use for free.

[Badou]

So my question to this is, how can you create characters with a history and lasting impact if you dont give them the chance to actually make it that far? Dick's history with Babs was just as bad as Clancy or Bea before Dixon actually took it somewhere. Starfire and some other titans were entirely new characters when they first met Dick? I mean Damian was just a minor throw away character until Morrison brought him back. Catwoman was missing from editorial for like 10-15 years before they brought her back to prominence. A character cant make impact and last long, if that character isnt given a chance to do so. It's like asking why you didnt win the race when you stopped running after the lap. People want new and exciting things with Nightwing, but then they dont support anything new with him. But I guess this is the cruz of the problem with western comics as a whole.

You have to elevate Nightwing and his stories first. To do that you need to have him interact with larger established heroes and villains in very well received stories. Where future creators will start picking from again and again. It is the "a rising tide lifts all boats" theory. It is why Nightwing creators use Blockbuster all the time because he is the only Nightwing villain from any kind of well known Nightiwng story. Now I'm a bit biased as I got stick of so many original characters and love interests over the New 52 era that I don't really care to see characters like that again. I can't stomach reading about some new love interest and prefer Dick settling down with an established one like Babs or Helena at this point to put a stop to it, but I at least understand that some readers like these smaller, self-contained characters from individual runs.

A good example is maybe a Carmine Falcone. He was created in the highly acclaimed Batman Year One story I think, but because of the success of that story future creators started using him more and more where he became a fixture in the Batman mythos. To do that for a Nightwing you first need to have highly acclaimed stories which means you need stories with great villains typically. Nightwing doesn't have a great Joker, Bane, or even Deathstroke story. A top story with some great villain. That is what the character needs over just filling his book with low end original characters no one really cares all that much about, imo.

You used a bad example.
Lobdell's Red Hood lasted because he was friends with Didio and Berganza, sold less than Ric Grayson.

No, I meant lasted as in impact. Roy is now Jason's best friend which has stuck around since the start of the New 52 over a decade ago now. Long after Lobdell quit writing them. Then you have a new webtoon series with Jason, Bizarro and Artemis. People gravitated to this Outlaws brand because of the characters a Jason was interacting with. If Jason only interacted with original characters in Outlaws I don't think it would have had the same impact. Now fans love his relationship with a Bizarro and his friendship/romance with an Artemis. It is the same with Dick and his Grayson series. Because it was established characters like Midnighter and Helena that Dick was teaming up with it made what he was doing feel more memorable. That feeling is kind of the core of what comics are.

[MakeNightwingGreatAgain]

You have to elevate Nightwing and his stories first. To do that you need to have him interact with larger established heroes and villains in very well received stories. Where future creators will start picking from again and again. It is the "a rising tide lifts all boats" theory. It is why Nightwing creators use Blockbuster all the time because he is the only Nightwing villain from any kind of well known Nightiwng story. Now I'm a bit biased as I got stick of so many original characters and love interests over the New 52 era that I don't really care to see characters like that again. I can't stomach reading about some new love interest and prefer Dick settling down with an established one like Babs or Helena at this point to put a stop to it, but I at least understand that some readers like these smaller, self-contained characters from individual runs.

A good example is maybe a Carmine Falcone. He was created in the highly acclaimed Batman Year One story I think, but because of the success of that story future creators started using him more and more where he became a fixture in the Batman mythos. To do that for a Nightwing you first need to have highly acclaimed stories which means you need stories with great villains typically. Nightwing doesn't have a great Joker, Bane, or even Deathstroke story. A top story with some great villain. That is what the character needs over just filling his book with low end original characters no one really cares all that much about, imo.

Ahh you see this is where we disagree. I think for the romance bit, Dick had a good break up with Kory, Helena and Babs. Why even revisit it if not for just mentioning it was a thing? For me, having dick settle with Babs or Kory will just piss people off even more. But having him settle with a neutral who has zero history with any of his previous love interest i think would do him better as he will have more freedom as a character to do new things. The goal for me is to have him move on from the past while not forgetting it entirely. Dick has moved on from each one of his previous love interests i think its time to let them go instead of just rehashing the same storylines with them every time. I think again these new characters can work if you give it time to work. Just getting rid of them in favor of fandom favorites or content that literally was left 15 or more years ago just isnt the right direction. We had a chance to establish Dick beyond Bludhaven but yet we bring him back. We had a chance to give Dick original love interests who were cool but we are back to Dick Babs vs Dick Kory. We had a chance to establish Dick beyond Batfam but here we are. For me, Im tired of new original fresh ideas that build off the old ideas being tossed aside. Id rather see Dick move on from the past than to be stapled to it forever. Which is why I want the new content to stick rather than being thrown away.

Nightwing will never had a joker, bane or any of those characters because you can pretty much replace that sentence with any combination and it'll just turn into the exact problem of why Dick never has anything to call his own and that is unique. "Cant stomach Dick being in another new city, and i prefer Dick being in an established one like Bludhaven/Gotham." "Cant stomach Dick fighting another villain, and I prefer him being with an established one like Blockbuster." Joker, Bane, Court of Owls, Tim Drake, Talia Al Ghul, all were new characters at one point, some people didnt even want to support like Jason Todd, but here we are with him being a major part of Batman mythos.