Dick Grayson: Robin/Batman/Nightwing/Agent 37 Appreciation 2022

[Aahz]

Basically DiDio thought (and he openly said this multiple times) that the biggest problem with the DCU is that people grew up loving Dick and Wally because they aged up with them but Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent and Barry Allen never really age. So at some point you will reach a situation where Dick and Wally are "older" than Bruce and Barry, so Dick and Wally will have to stop aging too. DiDio only had two solutions for this problem: getting rid of legacy characters as if they never existed (which is what he tried to do for the most part) or letting the DCU actually age (which is what he tried to do with Final Crisis and 5G, but both times it got shutdown by his higher-ups at Warner).

I think the best solution would be to just stopp aging up the characters.

But But for some reason DC makes the whole thing now even worse by having Characters like Damian and Jon that are the actual biological kids of Batman and Superman (so their ages a much more directly connected than the one sbetween Dicks and Bruce Generation) aging them much faster than any previous generation.

[dietrich]

I think the best solution would be to just stopp aging up the characters.

But But for some reason DC makes the whole thing now even worse by having Characters like Damian and Jon that are the actual biological kids of Batman and Superman (so their ages a much more directly connected than the one sbetween Dicks and Bruce Generation) aging them much faster than any previous generation.

Yeah, that's a head scratcher. Surely making the bio kids older is far more problematic? It's like DC is run by dunces. if you want to age up a generation then do it with the YJ gen that's been in stasis for decades.

Good God.

[Nightwing's_Lover]

Yeah, that's a head scratcher. Surely making the bio kids older is far more problematic? It's like DC is run by dunces. if you want to age up a generation then do it with the YJ gen that's been in stasis for decades.

Good God.

Haha! I agree, I don't think they should be aging the characters so fast, I mean look how long it took them to age the rest of the robins, especially Dick.

[Aahz]

I think they should have just forzen the ages arround OYL or Flashpoint (or at least slowed it down to like 1 year for 10+ year in real life).

They have not much to win by having one generation catching up in age with another. Or by aging the big 6 out of their prime.



EDIT: The modern tendecy vor decompresed writing makes aging feel also much faster.
When I look for example at Tims run by Dixon, it just felt like more had happend and more time has passed than during Damians time as Robin since Flashpoint, even if we are talking about a similar time in real life.
That Damian also mostly get's mini series that often seem to spann an in unverse time of about a week or so also doesn't help.

[Iclifton]

Yeah I prefer Dick to stay in late 20`s in the main universe.

[Leancarp900]

Yeah, that's a head scratcher. Surely making the bio kids older is far more problematic? It's like DC is run by dunces. if you want to age up a generation then do it with the YJ gen that's been in stasis for decades.

Good God.

Tbf while I said DiDio was overthinking this stuff for the most part, the YJ4 do actually have this problem. They can't be the "young adults of the DCU" because the adult Titans already occupy that position but they also can't be the "next generation" like they were during the 90s and 2000s because Damian's gen exists. They just sort of exist for the most part, probably doomed to being perpetual teenagers.

And yes, Jon and Damian existing and aging so fast only accelerates this problem. Jon and Conner have the same age now lol.

[WonderNight]

Yeah, that's a head scratcher. Surely making the bio kids older is far more problematic? It's like DC is run by dunces. if you want to age up a generation then do it with the YJ gen that's been in stasis for decades.

Good God.

OK you age the characters up then what? Them and the Titans are now competing for the same role and space!

People just don't want to here the truth that there's just not enough room for all these characters at the same time!

[Superboy-Prime]

I think the best solution would be to just stopp aging up the characters.

But But for some reason DC makes the whole thing now even worse by having Characters like Damian and Jon that are the actual biological kids of Batman and Superman (so their ages a much more directly connected than the one sbetween Dicks and Bruce Generation) aging them much faster than any previous generation.

Isn't Damian only 14?

[ZuLuLu]

Yeah, that's a head scratcher. Surely making the bio kids older is far more problematic? It's like DC is run by dunces. if you want to age up a generation then do it with the YJ gen that's been in stasis for decades.

Good God.

I think the problem the young justice generation has is that DC and even some fans believe they should be at the age that they are most popular.

Damian and Jon have the opposite problem they don't want them to get stuck in kid character mode because they feel like this will mean that Clark and Bruce their two biggest stars will always have to be accountable for their children and this will be turned them into 'lecturing Dad' characters, it one of the reasons why sidekicks were usually not their children these characters were meant to be seen as the cool uncle.

Damian and Jon as teenagers make it easier to explain why these characters are not always under their dads' supervision.

The problem is at some point DC needed to stop creating a new generation of characters under the same franchise because there is a limit in aging them in the main continuity.

[dietrich]

I think the problem the young justice generation has is that DC and even some fans believe they should be at the age that they are most popular.

Damian and Jon have the opposite problem they don't want them to get stuck in kid character mode because they feel like this will mean that Clark and Bruce their two biggest stars will always have to be accountable for their children and this will be turned them into 'lecturing Dad' characters, it one of the reasons why sidekicks were usually not their children these characters were meant to be seen as the cool uncle.

Damian and Jon as teenagers make it easier to explain why these characters are not always under their dads' supervision.

The problem is at some point DC needed to stop creating a new generation of characters under the same franchise because there is a limit in aging them in the main continuity.

I've never heard that complaint about Jon and Damian. That argument might have been valid for 10 year old Jon but not for 10 year old Damian.
That issue can be explained away in a single 1/2 panel that shows the kids checking in.
What I've seen is folks complaining about them being aged up to teenagers.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for aging up characters. I'm just saying that if management is worried about Bruce and co seeming older then don't age up their bio kids.

It also makes less sense to age up the bio kids while deaging the YJ gen. Tim was 17/8 when Damian was 10 now Tim is 16 to Damian's 14 while Jon and Conner are the same age.

I do agree that DC should put a cap on creating more gens and characters in general since they are struggling with the ones they do have.

I've noticed that yearning to return/recreate the good old days with the YJ gen. The real reason why Tim hasn't been able to grow beyond Robin isn't because DC hasn't tried. No. Fans resist and creators who grew up with him as Robin can't let go.
The new52 reset didn't help either.

[dietrich]

OK you age the characters up then what? Them and the Titans are now competing for the same role and space!

People just don't want to here the truth that there's just not enough room for all these characters at the same time!

I think we all know there isn't room but whose fav do you want to erase? Every character has a base so DC just can't start erasing characters to make room. The market is small as is.

[Rac7d*]

Isn't Damian only 14?

I want him to keep growing up
Watching his superhero career has been a blast for me.
Obviously most of us weren’t around for the start of Dick Jason or even Tim but getting to watch Damian in real time has been such a ride.

Plus I want Olive and canary to get married
i want Wally and Linda to have their baby
Babies grow up cuase passage of time.

[Badou]

I'm no fan of Didio but the idea behind him wanting to keep the top characters younger isn't without merit. The problem is that comics are the wrong medium to apply it to.

We know two things. First it's proven that younger people are more drawn to media with younger characters, and two younger people and kids are the biggest market the world. They are able to consume more media than any other group. A lot of the popular manga/anime, young adult novels, and TV shows all revolve around teens or young adults. It even extends to streamers, youtubers, and social media influencers where the ones that explode in popularity tend to all be young. All of the top selling OGNs every year are ones aimed at kids and you've seen DC try and get their foot into that market a lot the last decade. It is probably also why they are constantly creating new young heroes all the time too. The market is there for younger characters.

So DC and a Didio probably look at these kind of trends and statistics and don't want Bruce, or their top end heroes, to age to a point where they aren't as appealing to young people. DC obviously wants the potential sales young people can generate, but there might also be a fear of one day there being a generation of kids that don't care about Bruce because they don't find him as appealing. The problem with applying this to comics is that mainstream comics abandoned young readers decades ago. So when there are things like reboots that cut out the midsection of characters it isn't like a flood of young people are now going to go pick up the new Batman issue just because Bruce is in his late 20s again. Those young readers have a ton of other things to occupy their time and parents money and it would take decades of effort to win back young readers in mass.

Now a character like a Batman has such a strong brand that you don't need to worry about the IP falling off. Maybe a Superman or other characters it would hurt them more. It is really those middle characters that get squeezed badly when they try to move ages down while keeping the youngest generation of characters static. So like others have said Tim's entire generation is kind of lost at the moment, just like how Dick's generation was lost at the start of the New 52. Character bloat I think is a real problem for DC now and I don't really know a good fix. This also really influences how casual fans look at characters. Like I bet most casual readers and fans probably think that Dick and Jason should be close in age, but Dick should be a fair bit older. Jason should be much closer to Tim's age, but because of DC pushing these ages together important details like this get lost to the point where it effects the stories being told and it reshapes what people think is actual canon.

[Ascended]

In fact, Tim Drake was 17 in his Red Robin comic. If I'm not mistaken, Tim being a minor was plot point in the story.

Now that you mention it, I think I vaguely do recall that. Okay, so I'm either thinking of the wrong series where Tim was 19-ish, or it's just a fabrication of my imagination. I still maintain that the Leaguers now being 40-ish has been a thing for a while and it's such a non-factor most of us didn't even notice, and isn't beyond the realm of comic book plausibility.

I'm no fan of Didio but the idea behind him wanting to keep the top characters younger isn't without merit. The problem is that comics are the wrong medium to apply it to.

Agreed. And it's kind of ironic; Didio ushered in all these new characters and legacies, many of whom likely could do well in things like the YA OGN markets, and the direct market is now flooded with characters the LCS fandom didn't necessarily want in the first place. But those other markets like the OGN's, they often use older, more classic characters like Raven and Beast Boy, or use younger versions of characters like the Trinity, John Constantine, and Zee.

Character bloat I think is a real problem for DC now and I don't really know a good fix.

Dedicate a good portion of the line to cycling miniseries featuring lesser known characters and legacies maybe? More team books with more robust rosters? Roll C- and D-listers into the supporting casts of other books?

Honestly I think if you want to push characters like Vixen, Sideways, Naomi, Yara Flor or even this new Red Canary, doing it beyond the LCS is probably the best choice. I'm all for experimentation and doing weird, off the wall comics, and DC will never get into a healthier position if they don't offer a quality, varied line, but it's damn unlikely a character like Kid Quick is going to become as popular or profitable in the direct market than if they got a YA OGN or two on the bookstore shelf.

[marhawkman]

I'm no fan of Didio but the idea behind him wanting to keep the top characters younger isn't without merit. The problem is that comics are the wrong medium to apply it to.

We know two things. First it's proven that younger people are more drawn to media with younger characters, and two younger people and kids are the biggest market the world. They are able to consume more media than any other group. A lot of the popular manga/anime, young adult novels, and TV shows all revolve around teens or young adults. It even extends to streamers, youtubers, and social media influencers where the ones that explode in popularity tend to all be young. All of the top selling OGNs every year are ones aimed at kids and you've seen DC try and get their foot into that market a lot the last decade. It is probably also why they are constantly creating new young heroes all the time too. The market is there for younger characters.

So DC and a Didio probably look at these kind of trends and statistics and don't want Bruce, or their top end heroes, to age to a point where they aren't as appealing to young people. DC obviously wants the potential sales young people can generate, but there might also be a fear of one day there being a generation of kids that don't care about Bruce because they don't find him as appealing. The problem with applying this to comics is that mainstream comics abandoned young readers decades ago. So when there are things like reboots that cut out the midsection of characters it isn't like a flood of young people are now going to go pick up the new Batman issue just because Bruce is in his late 20s again. Those young readers have a ton of other things to occupy their time and parents money and it would take decades of effort to win back young readers in mass.

Now a character like a Batman has such a strong brand that you don't need to worry about the IP falling off. Maybe a Superman or other characters it would hurt them more. It is really those middle characters that get squeezed badly when they try to move ages down while keeping the youngest generation of characters static. So like others have said Tim's entire generation is kind of lost at the moment, just like how Dick's generation was lost at the start of the New 52. Character bloat I think is a real problem for DC now and I don't really know a good fix. This also really influences how casual fans look at characters. Like I bet most casual readers and fans probably think that Dick and Jason should be close in age, but Dick should be a fair bit older. Jason should be much closer to Tim's age, but because of DC pushing these ages together important details like this get lost to the point where it effects the stories being told and it reshapes what people think is actual canon.

How did Dragon Ball handle it? Introduce new characters as the previous ones age.

Goku started out as a pre-teen. But by the end of the original Dragon Ball run he was late teens and got married to Chi-Chi.

In DBZ, the first episode has him catching up with old friends after having been living with his wife Chi-Chi for a few years. Oh and he has a toddler-ish son named Gohan now.

By the end of DBZ, Gohan is a grown man and marries Videl. Oh and he has a much younger brother named Goten.

Now there's a continuity fork here, but for the purposes of this description I'm going to cover GT instead of Super, since Super... doesn't push things as far forward in time.

In GT, Gohan's daughter Pan is early teens.. and older than her grandpa Goku was when he was first seen. Also, Goten is now late teens.

And that's just Goku and his descendants, there's also Vegeta's kids, and others....

Dedicate a good portion of the line to cycling miniseries featuring lesser known characters and legacies maybe? More team books with more robust rosters? Roll C- and D-listers into the supporting casts of other books?

Honestly I think if you want to push characters like Vixen, Sideways, Naomi, Yara Flor or even this new Red Canary, doing it beyond the LCS is probably the best choice. I'm all for experimentation and doing weird, off the wall comics, and DC will never get into a healthier position if they don't offer a quality, varied line, but it's damn unlikely a character like Kid Quick is going to become as popular or profitable in the direct market than if they got a YA OGN or two on the bookstore shelf.

This is why I like team books. You can have a cast of 20+ characters. you don't need to make them the star of every issue, just use them all regularly.