Dick Grayson: Robin/Batman/Nightwing/Agent 37 Appreciation 2022

[Felipe Silveira]

He’s dressed like the Batman Who Laughs, it’s just generic gothic black leather. Didn’t see any Nazi stuff. He is evil as hell though regardless.

I must be seeing things
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[Zaresh]

I'm glancing through some scans of it right now.

I think you're right, it comes down to how much you like Jason. Him clobbering Tim with a crowbar isn't as bad in the full context, and Dick isn't treated as badly as I thought. Cass at least didn't go down permanently, but I have a hard time buying Jason even landing that taze on her. And him vanishing at the end and none of them notice? C'mon.

I get it's his book, but I imagine Jason fans would be among the first to cry foul if he was used in a similar manner in one of the others' books.

I don't think Cass was even trying, to be honest.
I mean, she noticed the lady and didn't do a thing. I think she's just amusing herself a bit there with these shenanigans because she knows better than them all.

I think they not noticing him in the end shows they don't give him or his actions too much thought. Any of them could have gotten free of those robes easily, Jason included. They don't think he's onto something, they're too distracted by what Bruce says to pay this stubborn brother much attention, and they don't take Jason too seriously, I think. They're also in protective mode, maybe (protecting Jason from himself, supposedly, I guess). Easier to trick and prone to overlook.

All my guess, of course. I choose to look at this issue like that for my headcanon.
They're could show up in the end, again (they came to his aid in Urban Legends' Cheer story, too); so, well, I'm not too worried.

Yeah, it all depends on who's your fave.
But this is standard for characters in their books. Jason doesn't usually show offs too much in his own book, actually. Not even here: Rosenberg has made him loose several fights (something some fans dislike). I get people not liking when it happens, too: I don't like when Jason under performs outside his book and that happens quite often (not always though), even if I'm fine with him not being always excellent in his book. But it's also understandable that he does worse in other character's book: those books are for those other characters to shine. I mean, it's how it works most of the time. So, well... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Lal]

Hey, try read the issue (maybe ask for someone to lend it to you). The whole fight has a nice reason to happen the way it does and why Jason won in the end is pretty explainable in my opinion. None of them were trying to seriously fight, not even Jason, who was actually trying a bit harder than them. And in the end, it was more like some family time than anything, and the issues at play had a lot more to do with levels of trust than anything. Actually, the whole book as a lot to do with trust issues between the characters.

That, and silly fun. Which may be not your thing. Iirc, you're not a fan of Jason, so maybe the book is a hard pass for you. But still, try get a glance through the issue. I don't think it was that outrageous (but then, I am a big Jason fan).

I'm a Jason fan and I disagree with you here. The entire batfamily were treated somewhere between badly to really badly (Babs needing to apologize to Jason, Tim being called to boring Robin and barely even factoring in the fight and treated like an amateur, Dick needing Jason to save him in the middle of the fight, and the list goes on). Rosenberg even went out of his way to make it clear that Jason was fooling them and holding his own against them easily, while they were all working hard to try to take him down (He even used Dick to say that), and of course again added Jason saying, once again, how he holds back.
While in Damian's issue it at least made some sense how he took down Jason, here there way literally zero reason how Jason held his own against the batfamily.
I'm a Jason fan, and I consider him one of the better fighters of the batfamily and could see him winning in some one on one fights, but not like this and not against Dick, Tim and Cass simultaneously, unless it's a fanfiction.

[Zaresh]

I'm a Jason fan and I disagree with you here. The entire batfamily were treated somewhere between badly to really badly (Babs needing to apologize to Jason, Tim being called to boring Robin and barely even factoring in the fight and treated like an amateur, Dick needing Jason to save him in the middle of the fight, and the list goes on). Rosenberg even went out of his way to make it clear that Jason was fooling them and holding his own against them easily, while they were all working hard to try to take him down (He even used Dick to say that), and of course again added Jason saying, once again, how he holds back.
While in Damian's issue it at least made some sense how he took down Jason, here there way literally zero reason how Jason held his own against the batfamily.
I'm a Jason fan, and I consider him one of the better fighters of the batfamily and could see him winning one on some one on one fights, but not like this and not against Dick, Tim and Cass simultaneously, unless it's a fanfiction.

Well, I don't think any of them were really working hard in the fight. They even banter afterwards about who won over whom in the fight. When Tim protested for his broken nose, Jason replied that he didn't expect Tim couldn't block it. And even when Cass told them it was all Jason's way to distract them, the mood was kind of relaxed. And that with Jason still playing their weak spots in his advantage. Because he knows them, and he really, really needs to get them distracted to finish his work with his TFZ team against whatever Powers and Bloom are trying to achieve.

Also, they are big detectives, but they're often not very smart if the plot demands. Which happens to often for* my taste, and not all the time when the story wants to mostly be a fun read.

Different opinions and all that. I took the issue a different way, I guess. I'm also kind of forgiving of these sort of things as far as they don't hurt the character, too.

[JackJustMetMartin]

I'm a Jason fan and I disagree with you here. The entire batfamily were treated somewhere between badly to really badly (Babs needing to apologize to Jason, Tim being called to boring Robin and barely even factoring in the fight and treated like an amateur, Dick needing Jason to save him in the middle of the fight, and the list goes on). Rosenberg even went out of his way to make it clear that Jason was fooling them and holding his own against them easily, while they were all working hard to try to take him down (He even used Dick to say that), and of course again added Jason saying, once again, how he holds back.
While in Damian's issue it at least made some sense how he took down Jason, here there way literally zero reason how Jason held his own against the batfamily.
I'm a Jason fan, and I consider him one of the better fighters of the batfamily and could see him winning in some one on one fights, but not like this and not against Dick, Tim and Cass simultaneously, unless it's a fanfiction.

(These are direct quotes)

Jason: "You know I was holding back right?"

Dick: "No, you weren't."

Jason: "I was. And I still broke his nose and knocked her out for a minute. And I could have let you become roadkill."

This is literally fanfiction. It's powerwanking Jason. There's having a character you favor, then there's this.

If Jason had struggled but won through guile and stubbornness or whatever there'd be less discontent among fans, but he literally 1v3'd Cass Dick and Tim "holding back"

[JackJustMetMartin]

(These are direct quotes)

Jason: "You know I was holding back right?"

Dick: "No, you weren't."

Jason: "I was. And I still broke his nose and knocked her out for a minute. And I could have let you become roadkill."

This is literally fanfiction. It's powerwanking Jason. There's having a character you favor, then there's this.

If Jason had struggled but won through guile and stubbornness or whatever there'd be less discontent among fans, but he literally 1v3'd Cass Dick and Tim "holding back"

I went back through the issue, not a single block or dodge was preformed by anyone. That's not a fight, it's slapstick comedy.

[Felipe Silveira]

I went back through the issue, not a single block or dodge was preformed by anyone. That's not a fight, it's slapstick comedy.

It's a bad fanfic, I didn't expect more from Rosenberg. It's amazing how DC leaves things in the hands of an author who left Marvel without leaving any regrets.

[Frontier]

"Versus" fights in another characters book generally don't treat the other characters all that well.

[Aahz]

something some fans dislike

As one of these fans I think something like this was way over due (even if Rosenberg might have gone a little to far here), he gets used so often to make other Batfamily members look good, and gets so rarely the opportunity to show of around them.

And hey he is the guy with mystic ninja powers, who actually wears somewhat effective armor (including head protection) and is (at least according to the semioffical stats) several weight classes above them.

[Lal]

As one of these fans I think something like this was way over due (even if Rosenberg might have gone a little to far here), he gets used so often to make other Batfamily members look good, and gets so rarely the opportunity to show of around them.

And hey he is the guy with mystic ninja powers, who actually wears somewhat effective armor (including head protection) and is (at least according to the semioffical stats) several weight classes above them.

I can't think of an equivalent in the recent years of what Rosenberg just did, or something that even comes close.
Jason isn't ahead of any of the three fighters he faced training-wise (arguably the other way around), his mystic ninja powers work against evils, meaning they are useless against his family, and he admitted to being slower than the others (which balances him being stronger). He could win against Tim, Dick if he's lucky, not really Cass, and definitely not against all three.

This fight was a mess, and Jason saving Dick, from all people (the one Jason just admitted is faster, and his entire thing is acrobatics and being able to easily avoid falls and change his trajectory mid-motion) from a speeding train mid-fight, was ridicolous.

Speculation-wise, we know that this book is hardly selling, so I assume this issue was a dire attempt to boost up sales, and maybe it will help in the short while, but I believe it will also distance Tim, Cass and Dick's fans from this book.

And the worse thing is that I believe this fight will hurt Jason in the long run. Unless the bat-office is really adamant about pushing Jason as the most competent of them from now on (unlikely, but possible), it's entirely possible that Jason will appear in the other books and the other characters will stomp him easily.
So in the next Nightwing annual instead of Dick and Jason working together, Dick and Jason will fight, and Dick will win without dropping a sweat while cracking jokes and making Jason's training and fighting skill look like a joke, and maybe even say that he never fought him as an equal. Then in Batgirls Cass will stomp Jason with her eyes closed and hands tied behind her back while citing the periodic table to remind her fans that she's the most badass there is, and finally in Batman Tim will easily win in a confirmation again Jason and make it clear that Jason will never be able to break his nose again, to appease Tim fans.
And what did we get from that? In the long run, Jason is relegated to a punching bag in three different books that sell much better than his, all characters get a moment to shine, but at the expense of making other characters look bad, and fan bases turn against each other.
There aren't that many comic readers, the bat-editors want Nightwing or Batgirls' readers to buy Jason's book as well, not drop it because it makes their favorites look incompetnt.

[Zagre]

I must be seeing things
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I just see an Underworld gothic black leather costume? The guy wears three belts on his stomach.

[HsssH]

Can we stop with "boring Robin", "best Robin" and similar things? It sounds stupid and I can't imagine any of these characters saying such things.

[Aahz]

And what did we get from that? In the long run, Jason is relegated to a punching bag in three different books that sell much better than his,

That's kind of how he was written often in the past years (even if not as over the top).
I mean honestly he looks hardly ever compent in Bat-family crossovers.

- Joker War had him and Tim get stomped by a brainwashed Dick.
- Nightwing Annual, is him needing Dick's help to clear up his name (which he should habe been easily capable of doing on his own)
- In Urban Legends he needs in the end the rest of the Batfamily to come in for rescue
- and I can probaly find several other examples of him needing to be rescued (or beaten up) by other Batfamily members or been written as comic relief character

The only example in recent history of him an another Batfamily member really working on a case togther with out Jason being used to make the other look better was the team up of him and Dick in Gotham Nights.

I agree that proping up one character on cost of another one (unless the other gets also his moment to shine) is not a good way to write comics. But Jason has been so often on the other side of this, that I think it is ok for once when the others to look like idiots.

[Vordan]

I just see an Underworld gothic black leather costume? The guy wears three belts on his stomach.

Yeah I just see the BWLs gimp suit

[Confuzzled]

I just see an Underworld gothic black leather costume? The guy wears three belts on his stomach.

There's no arm band but it's kinda made up for with the ominous red in the background and monitor screen plus l kinda doubt the result of the imagery and hand positions are all coincidental with no intention to evoke certain connections.