Dick Grayson: Robin/Batman/Nightwing/Agent 37 Appreciation 2022

[OOPS]

I literally
Just said
I hope once Taylor's done fixing Devin Grayson final arc he's gonna move on to do his own arc
NO
He's bringing back Zucco
He's doing Kyle Higgins arc now

On one side, I'm actually getting what I want in a sense that he's fixing things to be the way I want it (no rape no trauma Bludhaven survive) and continue an abandoned story arc (Crime boss Zucco but replace Chicago with Bludhaven) or even respecting continuity even if it's bad (Ric) or finally getting Dick and Babs together which was pushed pulled for over ten years or actually involving Titans in Bludhaven (more synergy with the whole DCU is what I want)
On the other hand I'm reminded of what he's doing in Injustice with the Arrow fam and Harley and Dark Knights of Steel where things are actually different and funny and interesting so in this case I actually want him to move on from other people's ideas and do his own. Heartless is an interesting idea but he saved it for the tail end of his run because he's busy doing everything else.

Like it's so weird the feeling I have for Nightwing series overall because for once I feel I got a writer who can be creative but he's not doing it because he prefer to continue and fix things, which is what I want to do
No, actually, I like the fix, it just takes SO. LONG! It's been two years and we're only got to the second part of "okay let me do this thing the previous writers did or want to do but prevented by editorial"

I don't know if that's what he's doing but it feels that way

So I think what you are feeling is a result of what Taylor said in the interview. The goal here was to make Dick happy. That is a great goal in a 6 page short story, maybe even a 6 issue event or even a free Webtoon. But a well crafted story needs tension to sustain interest. While it doesn't need to subvert expectations, it does need to allow for the possibility that readers might not "like" aspects of the story. Stories need an element of darkness, aka conflict. Without the possibility that a character in the story will make a "mistake" or do something "wrong", the story lacks energy. It ends up just being a pretty picture without meaning and depth. Which, I suspect, is why all these "fixes" to prior stories is feeling a bit hallow.

[Godlike13]

I didnt mind the rape storyline. I minded that the writer/editorial chickened out and didn't follow through. I like the darker stories.

They didn’t chicken out, and they did follow though. Just they followed through with a really lame story, and ultimately had other plans for the character. Understand it wasn’t a rape storyline though. That wasn’t the intent for the story to be about.

[Konja7]

They didn’t chicken out, and they did follow though. Just they followed through with a really lame story, and ultimately had other plans for the character. Understand it wasn’t a rape storyline though. That wasn’t the intent for the story to be about.

Yeah. The writer doesn't really consider this situation as rape (even although Dick being forced was pretty explicit). That's why the other characters blame Dick.

A similar situation happened when Dick was raped by Mirage.

[OOPS]

They didn’t chicken out, and they did follow though. Just they followed through with a really lame story, and ultimately had other plans for the character. Understand it wasn’t a rape storyline though. That wasn’t the intent for the story to be about.

Oh Ive seen the interviews with the writer, both from around the the time and recently. The account of what happened has evolved. I agree she didn't see it as a rape story (which, not to knock her, would also be how many perpetrators view such events. Kind of like Starfire pushing, carrying or just not letting go when Dick said no). But instead of pushing through once they realized what the story really portrayed, they made a decision to back off and go to that lame story. AND editorial has still never followed up on the story of a strong powerful man being a victim of rape twice, as well as the victim of intimate partner violence. Those are active choices.

[Restingvoice]

So I think what you are feeling is a result of what Taylor said in the interview. The goal here was to make Dick happy. That is a great goal in a 6 page short story, maybe even a 6 issue event or even a free Webtoon. But a well crafted story needs tension to sustain interest. While it doesn't need to subvert expectations, it does need to allow for the possibility that readers might not "like" aspects of the story. Stories need an element of darkness, aka conflict. Without the possibility that a character in the story will make a "mistake" or do something "wrong", the story lacks energy. It ends up just being a pretty picture without meaning and depth. Which, I suspect, is why all these "fixes" to prior stories is feeling a bit hallow.

Yeah I think last month I did talk about how low stake the conflict is this time because of how many allies and resources he has compared to the original Blockbuster conflict. I like that he's using them but the stake needs to be increased considerably, and if he's doing this to replace the final Blockbuster arc he should've done it quicker, like, get it out of the way fast so for his own story, he can make a threat that match the resource.

[Godlike13]

Oh Ive seen the interviews with the writer, both from around the the time and recently. The account of what happened has evolved. I agree she didn't see it as a rape story (which, not to knock her, would also be how many perpetrators view such events. Kind of like Starfire pushing, carrying or just not letting go when Dick said no). But instead of pushing through once they realized what the story really portrayed, they made a decision to back off and go to that lame story. AND editorial has still never followed up on the story of a strong powerful man being a victim of rape twice, as well as the victim of intimate partner violence. Those are active choices.

They didn’t realize what they portrayed till fans pointed it out. They didn’t decide to back off from it as they never intended to explore it in the first place. As they weren’t even truly aware of what they did. Again the story was never intended to be a rape story, they didn’t even become aware that it was rape till after it was published. And soon after came the IC controversy. Which is where there thought process was with Dick at the time. Not sure they are against telling that story or just that no one has pitched a story re-exploring the times they inadvertently had him be raped.

[Godlike13]

Yeah I think last month I did talk about how low stake the conflict is this time because of how many allies and resources he has compared to the original Blockbuster conflict. I like that he's using them but the stake needs to be increased considerably, and if he's doing this to replace the final Blockbuster arc he should've done it quicker, like, get it out of the way fast so for his own story, he can make a threat that match the resource.

Last time we saw real stakes people complained how they could do that to a C-lister. So...

Though whats at stake in this moment is the very thing Dick has been trying to build for the entity of this run. Now whether or not one cares about Haven is one thing, but there are stakes here.

[Avi]

Yeah. The writer doesn't really consider this situation as rape (even although Dick being forced was pretty explicit). That's why the other characters blame Dick.

A similar situation happened when Dick was raped by Mirage.

Didn't consider it rape, does now. She's a SA survivor herself and was even back then. Some things get skewed when you're in an abusive relationship yourself. Honestly, by now I think more than anything Editorial should have seen the plot and said: Hey, wait a second. What's the plan for this? But they only cared about crossovers even back then.


What happened after Dick got raped by Mirage and Tarantula was hugely different.

After Mirage Wollfman made Dick look like a toxic dude bro while making Kory shame and curse Dick. It's such a huge contrast to how Mirage later got her revenge story against Deathwing (who raped her) because of Jimenez. Tarantula's and Dick's relationship never turned healthy again while Mirage was running around with the Titans and got supported through her trauma by one of Dick's best friends Donna.

When Mirage happened, characters directly reacted to the sexual act (saying sexual act here as it also wasn't portraied as rape in the story). When Tarantula happened, with the exception of Babs, the characters reacted to Blockbuster/Dick's inability to focus. There's also the whole difference between who knows. Dick never really talks about Tarantula. Mirage proudly proclaims she raped Dick in front of all the Titans.

[witchboy]

It is kind of appalling that the writers didn't even understand that they wrote Dick being raped, and that editorial didn't seem to care or understand either.
I never could forgive Mirage for what she did, and it did destroy Dick and Kory.

[witchboy]

Didn't consider it rape, does now. She's a SA survivor herself and was even back then. Some things get skewed when you're in an abusive relationship yourself. Honestly, by now I think more than anything Editorial should have seen the plot and said: Hey, wait a second. What's the plan for this? But they only cared about crossovers even back then.


What happened after Dick got raped by Mirage and Tarantula was hugely different.

After Mirage Wollfman made Dick look like a toxic dude bro while making Kory shame and curse Dick. It's such a huge contrast to how Mirage later got her revenge story against Deathwing (who raped her) because of Jimenez. Tarantula's and Dick's relationship never turned healthy again while Mirage was running around with the Titans and got supported through her trauma by one of Dick's best friends Donna.

When Mirage happened, characters directly reacted to the sexual act (saying sexual act here as it also wasn't portraied as rape in the story). When Tarantula happened, with the exception of Babs, the characters reacted to Blockbuster/Dick's inability to focus. There's also the whole difference between who knows. Dick never really talks about Tarantula. Mirage proudly proclaims she raped Dick in front of all the Titans.

Just wanted to say I love your Avatar Avi, it's so cute.

[Restingvoice]

Last time we saw real stakes people complained how they could do that to a C-lister. So...

Though what at stake in this moment is the very thing Dick has been trying to build for the entity of this run. Now whether or not one cares about Haven is one thing, but there are stakes here.

Who's the C-Lister?

I don't know if I can define the stake either. All I know is I don't feel invested. I was at first, but after the repeated ease of Dick working with Oracle, Melinda, Wally, Titans and Bat fam to dismantle even a world scale operation, I just feel... huh okay that happened. The BPD and Blockbuster and his assassin was still a threat to Dick personally, but I don't feel the same to the team as a whole. I think that's the one I'm feeling. Looking at it as a whole. Like you bring Wally in but the enemy doesn't have their matching threat. Dick basically has his own personal Justice League in his series, but the threat isn't League level.

When the JL showed up in Batman it's because the threat is Gotham boy gone insane, who can adjust his power level to match the League

[OOPS]

Didn't consider it rape, does now. She's a SA survivor herself and was even back then. Some things get skewed when you're in an abusive relationship yourself. Honestly, by now I think more than anything Editorial should have seen the plot and said: Hey, wait a second. What's the plan for this? But they only cared about crossovers even back then.


What happened after Dick got raped by Mirage and Tarantula was hugely different.

After Mirage Wollfman made Dick look like a toxic dude bro while making Kory shame and curse Dick. It's such a huge contrast to how Mirage later got her revenge story against Deathwing (who raped her) because of Jimenez. Tarantula's and Dick's relationship never turned healthy again while Mirage was running around with the Titans and got supported through her trauma by one of Dick's best friends Donna.

When Mirage happened, characters directly reacted to the sexual act (saying sexual act here as it also wasn't portraied as rape in the story). When Tarantula happened, with the exception of Babs, the characters reacted to Blockbuster/Dick's inability to focus. There's also the whole difference between who knows. Dick never really talks about Tarantula. Mirage proudly proclaims she raped Dick in front of all the Titans.

I think I could see all of that *IF* editorial and writers hadn't continued to make the objectification of Dick...without showing the consequence for Dick. We never get to see Dick be uncomfortable when his agency is taken by the objectification. There is no consequence at all.

[Frontier]

The thing with Tarantula was so controversial they had to re-record dialogue in the Harley Quinn cartoon mentioning it.

[OOPS]

The thing with Tarantula was so controversial they had to re-record dialogue in the Harley Quinn cartoon mentioning it.

I didnt know that (but that's not a show I watch). Seems like it would be easier for them to just address it.

[Vordan]

You think Tony Zucco isn't a boring part of Dick's world by now? To each their own Zucco, then.

Lol sorry I was referring to Tony not Sonia, guess that didn’t come across clearly.