Dick Grayson: Robin/Batman/Nightwing/Agent 37 Appreciation 2022

[Frontier]

I've liked Heartless. And I much prefer his take on Blockbuster than Dixon's.

I mean, it's hard for me to think Heartless has a lot of presence. He's just kind of...there? Although I guess that's partially Fear State's fault from moving the series' focus.

Taylor's Blockbuster is basically the same as Dixon's to me. Seeley's was probably the one with the most character.

[SiegePerilous02]

We’re not getting all the major Titans though, we’re getting the New Teen Titans roster. They’ve done enough Fab Five Titans. They could have left Wally out too honestly as they eventually cut him, but he was originally there and is one of the few Titans that can carry a solo. It’s not about bloating the roster with every Titan they can find that has no where else to go.

This wouldn't be Fab 5 Titans though. It would be all the relevant Titans, which has pretty much always been the Fab 5 + NTT crew. Roy and Garth appeared often enough in the good stretch of issues (which is basically comprised of just the Perez run) to be effectively part of that era anyway.

I don't have too much high hopes for any direction DC goes with the Titans either way, NTT nostalgia has historically fizzled out just as much as Fab 5 nostalgia. Whatever they got planned will probably shit the bed for being uninspired just like the other attempts. I get you don't like the characters, I'm not super wild about them either, but hypothetically adding two more wouldn't add that much bloat. Especially if the alternative might be Jon and/or another Bat-character, which wouldn't help with the book seeming like discount JL.

[Godlike13]

This wouldn't be Fab 5 Titans though. It would be all the relevant Titans, which has pretty much always been the Fab 5 + NTT crew. Roy and Garth appeared often enough in the good stretch of issues (which is basically comprised of just the Perez run) to be effectively part of that era anyway.

I don't have too much high hopes for any direction DC goes with the Titans either way, NTT nostalgia has historically fizzled out just as much as Fab 5 nostalgia. Whatever they got planned will probably shit the bed for being uninspired just like the other attempts. I get you don't like the characters, I'm not super wild about them either, but hypothetically adding two more wouldn't add that much bloat. Especially if the alternative might be Jon and/or another Bat-character, which wouldn't help with the book seeming like discount JL.

They weren't as present as your claiming. They played no role in any of the major stories, and have no real relevance to that era or outside projects. The thing is they aren't relevant Titans. They are just left over characters that depend on the Titans for relevancy. Fab 5 nostalgia didn't really fizzle out, because there isn't really any Fab 5 nostalgia to begin with. Rebirth Titans learned that pretty quick and had to just steal from the NTT era once they remember there weren't any decent stories with them that anyone remembers. Adding the same old Titans that have no where else to go, just because they were Titans isn't a good reason to add them. They add considerable bloat, and if they wouldn't because they are just gonna stand in the background, they don't really need to be there.

[SanityOrMadness]

The "meet the new Titans" implies that we would have new people. Otherwise, there is no New Titans to meet cause this team it's the exactly same that we had in Teen Titans Academy.

Yeah, this is the problem. Dick gathering the NTT around him is logical and unsurprising (except, perhaps, in that his solo series have typically been reluctant to touch on his connections outside the Batfamily, even when he was in a concurrently-running Titans book). The solicit fundamentally missells what we see on the covers, which is "meet the new team, same as the old team."

[Godlike13]

Meet the New Titans as in meet the New (not)Teen(anymore) Titans.

[SiegePerilous02]

They weren't as present as your claiming. They played no role in any of the major stories, and have no real relevance to that era or outside projects.

Eh, they were present enough. Let's be real here, the Perez issues are the only thing the Titans IP has going for it comic wise, and there are only two major story arcs in that entire run. Judas Contract doesn't work in a vaccuum, it depends on the stories leading up to it and the aftermath. Roy showed up in the stories that introduced Terra and laid the groundwork for it, Garth and Tula showed up in the follow up story (which acted as as a basis for an episode in the cartoon, which featured them as recurring guest stars). Everything people are nostalgic about with the Titans comes from the Perez run, and they were the only Titans outside of the regular lineup to show up semi-frequently. After Perez left, the quality of the stories began its gradual decline and there are no major stories or new characters of note (except Danny Chase, who is noteworthy for all the worst reasons).

Actually, the most prominent thing to come out of the post-Perez Titans is probably Lian, and Roy's toxic relationship with Cheshire. Nothing else that materialized ever gained any serious legs.

The thing is they aren't relevant Titans. They are just left over characters that depend on the Titans for relevancy. Fab 5 nostalgia didn't really fizzle out, because there isn't really any Fab 5 nostalgia to begin with. Rebirth Titans learned that pretty quick and had to just steal from the NTT era once they remember there weren't any decent stories with them that anyone remembers. Adding the same old Titans that have no where else to go, just because they were Titans isn't a good reason to add them. They add considerable bloat, and if they wouldn't because they are just gonna stand in the background, they don't really need to be there.

Actually, aside from Dick and Wally, all of the Titans cling to each other as a group for relevancy. Any attempts for any of them to make it on their own haven't set the world on fire, and Donna in particular is a hot mess that even the Wonder Woman IP doesn't have a use for. Now she doesn't even have her distinct star field costume and just looks like a generic copy of Diana.

Look, like I said I'm not even especially wild about Roy or Garth and I expect any nostalgic direction this possible new Titans book to take to be very uninspired and probably dull regardless, and odds are good some of the characters in the NTT lineup will be standing in the background too (my money's on Donna). But your original response to me for why these two should be singled out as not included is because it would make it more of a discount JL. That reasoning just seems flimsy because we are totally just ending up with that anyway because that is just what the adult Titans inherently are right now until they can finally come up with a direction other than "hey, 'membah the 80s?". If the speculated upon membership slots for Jon and Babs end up happening (along with maybe Kyle as someone in another thread guessed), they will make it more of a discount JL than Roy or Garth would.

[Frontier]

Roy's probably going to be in the new Green Arrow book so I don't think he really needs the Titans right now.

Garth probably depends a lot on a new Aquaman book unless they keep pushing Jackson.

[Leancarp900]

Meet the New Titans as in meet the New (not)Teen(anymore) Titans.

The New Teen Titans weren't actually teenagers in NTT either to be fair (other than Beast Boy I think). They were young adults. Hell, Donna gets married eventually.

Wolfman wanted to drop the "Teen" prefix from the beginning. The only reason they didn't at first was because DC wasn't entirely sure if they could publish a book called "Titans" without breaching any trademark. Later on their lawyers found out they could so they dropped it.

[Leancarp900]

Are we seriously wondering why a new Titans comic is starring NTT? We might as well start wondering why the JL is always the Big 7 or why that fella Wolverine keeps appearing in X-Men. I get why some people would find it tiring and it's not my Ideal either (I would like to see Kyle or M'Gann) but I would argue the problem isn't the line-up itself but the direction.

I would also argue "80s nostalgia" probably isn't as much of a factor as "2000s nostalgia" (the cartoon). These 90s/early 2000s cartoons seem to heavily influence the perception of these franchises in the long-term. You see it with DC pushing John as the main Green Lantern, Scott Snyder using the DCAU JL line-up in his run and you even see it with Batman (where does Harley Quinn come from?).

[ayanestar]

Roy's probably going to be in the new Green Arrow book so I don't think he really needs the Titans right now.

Garth probably depends a lot on a new Aquaman book unless they keep pushing Jackson.

Yes, the author seems to be a fan of Roy and is excited to include him in the book. He also said Roy will get a new costume, which in my opinion is the best news possible. I will miss seeing him with the team, but he is better off in the GA book right now. However, I have no hope for Garth, DC seems to be only interested in pushing Jackson. I really wish we could get a Tempest miniseries or something, but that is not going to happen any time soon.

[SanityOrMadness]

I don't mind Dick interacting with the Titans, and seeing them all drawn by the artists on the Nightwing title like Redondo will continue to be enjoyable, but I still don't believe an adult Titans book works. I've had that stance for a long time. There just isn't anything the adult Titans do that is better than the Justice League. So even if the JL characters are temporary set aside for the Titans to take more of a bigger role in the DCU that will still always be temporary.

I mean, this is a major problem narratively whatever way you shuffle the deck. There's five basic generations of DC characters at this point - JSA-classic, JLA-classic, Titans, Young Justice and... we'll say "Teen Titans", since they don't have a distinct group name. (Main Gotham representatives per gen would be Alan Scott, Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, Tim Drake & Damian Wayne).

By all rights, the Titans generation (which includes characters who have never really been part of the Titans themselves, like Supergirl/Kara, Connor Hawke and the "Infinity Inc" generation JSAers - even if you'd think that last group should be older, they're not...) should be at the point where they're starting to edge out the elders, who would be shifting into a slightly more JSA-like role where they're still around, but less at the forefront of things (well, notwithstanding that some of them are meant to be nigh-immortal, like Superman & Wonder Woman; but the more-human and outright-human characters with near-adult and fully-adult children, like Bruce Wayne and Oliver Queen, should be in their 40s and starting to slow down markedly).

But that's not ever likely to be allowed to really happen (Future State was particularly egregious in a sense here, since they got shunted aside for what amounted to a bunch of newbies), and you get stuck with them cycling between irrelevant, cannon fodder, downright erased (New 52; where the whole generation was nigh-abolished, with some characters like Gar & Raven deaged to YJ or TT-generation, Cyborg moved up to "replace" Martian Manhunter, and the likes of Wally & Donna basically erased entirely. Even as that's been unwound, traces linger like Raven now being permanently short) and on occasion pushed.

Worse, it's a problem with no actual solution - even if somehow you come up with a coherent and perfect plan, it just takes one Dan DiDio to come along, hit the rewind button and smash it all to pieces. But that's not necessarily an excuse for not trying. You just have to remember that IRL popularity shouldn't necessarily translate to in-universe competence. Why shouldn't Nightwing be as competent as Batman by this point? Why should Raven be seen as markedly junior to Zatanna? Even the NTT debutants have over a decade of experience at this point, and the Silver Age sidekicks have been doing it most of their lives.

Are we seriously wondering why the new Titans comic is starring NTT? We might as well start wondering why the JL is always the Big 7 or why that fella Wolverine keeps appearing in X-Men. I get why some people would find it tiring but I would argue the problem isn't the line-up itself but the direction.

It's just missold. The NW #101 solicit should absolutely NOT have said "Meet the new Titans!" if it's just the NTT lineup again. or even mostly so.

You see it with DC pushing John as the main Green Lantern.

I mean, that's partially a diversity thing too. And it's definitely less ham-handed in that respect than the way Johns tried to crowbar Cyborg into the core JL. (Although that's nowhere near as big a facepalm as Johns deciding that trying to remake the "Big 7" while still keeping the female representation at 1/7 was a good idea. Could at least have added characters like Vixen, Black Canary - who has form as a JLA founder from post-Crisis, after all - Zatanna, Dr Light, etc.)

Yes, the author seems to be a fan of Roy and is excited to include him in the book. He also said Roy will get a new costume, which in my opinion is the best news possible. I will miss seeing him with the team, but he is better off in the GA book. However, I have no hope for Garth, DC seems to be only interested in pushing Jackson. I really wish we could get a Tempest miniseries or something, but that is not going to happen any time soon.

Garth's another one who hasn't really recovered from his treatment in the New 52 (and even prior). Abnett's weird treatment of him as a bit of a brute in the Rebirth Titans probably didn't help (cf his handbrake turn from Wolverine-Donna in Titans Hunt to a much more classic take on her personality in the Rebirth run). Other than Phil Jimenez (the guy who remade him into Tempest in the first place), not many creators seem to be that interested in him, so when he appears he gets casually messed around with in that way Minor Characters do.

[Badou]

Are we seriously wondering why the new Titans comic is starring NTT? We might as well start wondering why the JL is always the Big 7 or why that fella Wolverine keeps appearing in X-Men. I get why some people would find it tiring but I would argue the problem isn't the line-up itself but the direction.

I would also argue "80s nostalgia" probably isn't as much of a factor as "2000s nostalgia" (the cartoon). These 90s/early 2000s cartoons seem to heavily influence the perception of these franchises in the long-term. You see it with DC pushing John as the main Green Lantern, Scott Snyder using the DCAU JL line-up in his run and you even see it with Batman (where does Harley Quinn come from?).

I agree with this. It is kind of weird to complain about using the most well known characters for the Titans. Who do you want them to use? I honestly don't care about any of the new teen ones and I don't have much interest in seeing the Titans play babysitter again. The Teen Titans 2003 cartoon, as well as the still ongoing TTGO cartoon, is DC's longest running animated property. They are kind of iconic at this point. So not using them just leads to people complaining that they aren't being used.

[Superboy-Prime]

I would've put Kyle Rayner on the team. And Harley Quinn. Gotta have Harley.

[Mantis-Ray]

I would've put Kyle Rayner on the team. And Harley Quinn. Gotta have Harley.

I see no reason why a Titans team should include Harley. Like literally no reason beyond purely "she's a popular character"

Also wouldprobably be a bad pick anyway cause Harley is an absolute blackhole of a spotlight hog which isn't the type of character you want to bring over.

[WonderNight]

I have no interest in this roster