Dick Grayson: Robin/Batman/Nightwing/Agent 37 Appreciation 2022

[Iclifton]

No, dick's relevance comes from being 'not just' a Part of the batfamily, nightwing's whole point was trying to grow out of Batman's shadow and be his own superhero and person, before new 52 he had connections and a positive relationship with every major hero, that was his appeal, he quite literally had a sizeable audience when He was neither Robin or nightwing so I don't know what you are cooking, and now you are even revising history with 'it recieved a push' it received it at the tail end of it when it outdid expectations and it came in form of Robin eternal crossover where he got punched around by Harper, yeah push, again it's unfair considering the 'i won't read until NW is back' sentiment was loud at the time, and this 'well recieved' team wasn't well received untill Grayson became a thing, before that they were unproven dudes who proved themselves through Grayson, it's the reason why King and Mikel got promoted to Batman after it ended and Seeley became the sole writer of nightwing which was a sort of promotion as he didn't have to split the pay, you are either caught up in hindsight or forgetting a lot, putting those guys on this was not a push, it was a 'lets see what u guys got' and they went to bigger and better things just like most good NW writters always do

And you keep mistaking something about what I'm saying, I'm not saying NW/bludhaven/Barbra is damaging dick, I'm saying it puts a ceiling on how great stories can be told, if ric Grayson couldn't damage dick Grayson then barbra and bludhaven can't do all that much, as far as evidence, again you keep ommiting the context of that run, it was outselling everything not named batman and Harley, not because it was selling like hot cakes but because this was the time when dc was not selling well, it's the reason why rebirth happened, Grayson was one of DC's bright spots it certainly had more critical acclaim then this nightwing run did considering it was winning comic Book awards in Japan of all places, you again keep saying NW is a smarter business decision because it sells better, letts ignore the obstacles in Grayson's way for a moment, as I said before NW should be outselling Grayson, it has years of media appearences over it it should outsell it but if smarter business perspective is dictated by just what sells well right now then kaldur is not a smarter choice, neighter is Jace, neither is Yara, they are all getting outsold by nightwing of all things and yet dc keeps pushing them, it's precisely because it's not just about what sells right now that dc keeps pushing them, you keep saying there is no evidence that Grayson is the smarter business decision, I say you have no evidence to suggest that Nightwing in bludhaven can ever produce a story atc as good as 'the gauntlet' because by the time a writer builds a cast of great villains someone will decide that some of these are too good for just NW, it's not like we haven't seen this happen before, you keep making statments as if they are facts when they aren't and answer questions that I never asked, all I'm talking about is his ceiling as far as story potential goes in this setting and the potential for relevance in greater dcu, i don't see it, you can disagree but don't pass off your opinions by insisting they are facts particularly when you keep missing key details

Damaging and putting a cap on potential is the same thing. Its just not true. Amazing stories can still be told with either. They in no way limit Dick. You have absolutely no numbers proving Grayson to be the more beneficial approach. You can disagree with me about what the numbers I am presenting say, but at least I have numbers to back up my thesis.

It definitely was not more critically well received. Look up the reviews. Nightwing has one a ton of comic of the year awards this year alone.

But yes, if you take away Dicks connection to the Batfam, his history as Robin, he would be done.

[ayanestar]

I have just caught up with Jon's comic and seeing him aged up is still kinda weird, but otherwise it's a pretty fun comic. Dark Knights of Steel is also fun to read. I might not be in love with his Nightwing run, but I guess it's safe to say that I do like Tom Taylor's writing overall, so I hope he sticks around.

[yash]

Damaging and putting a cap on potential is the same thing. Its just not true. Amazing stories can still be told with either. They in no way limit Dick. You have absolutely no numbers proving Grayson to be the more beneficial approach. You can disagree with me about what the numbers I am presenting say, but at least I have numbers to back up my thesis.

It definitely was not more critically well received. Look up the reviews. Nightwing has one a ton of comic of the year awards this year alone.

But yes, if you take away Dicks connection to the Batfam, his history as Robin, he would be done.

no they are not, portraying a morally upstanding character as a cheating piece of garbage is damaging, writing that same character in a setting where you know that he can be himself even though the story potential is limited is not damaging but just underwhelming.

You simply don't have evidence to suggest that nightwing in bludhaven can produce a story as good as 'the gauntlet' it hasn't done after all these years after all, so the burden of proof is on you.

Grayson's very existence suggests that it could be a more beneficial to dick in long term, look at Jace, take away the Batman mantle and the sales he's enjoying will not dip, it will crater and he will become irrelevant, look at dick Grayson, they took away not just nightwing but also the constant crossovers that used to bump nightwing's sales and not only was it a critically acclaimed book but a commercial success outselling everything but Batman and Harley, that alone suggests potential, Jace couldn't survive something like that jason can't survive something like that and Barbra can't survive something like that, dick didn't just survive it thrived and it gave him some of the best stories of his publication history post his Batman stint,

Also that statement about 'atleast I have numbers' is positively ridiculous, you are not comparing apples to apples for one, NW had and continuous to have not just greater media exposure but also greater comic book exposure, you yourself have claimed in past that tim would be a lot more popular if he had a consistent title, well Grayson was supposed to be a 12 issue run then got extended because it did so well then it had its writter and artist pulled for bigger projects in favour of rebirth so yeah you saying well 'I have numbers' numbers not put in right context are at best meaningless at worst they give you inaccurate analysis and yours is just that innacurate

And no if by taking away his connection with bat'fam' you mean 'batfam is not as relevant in his life as it once was then no it won't affect him at all provided he's in hans of a competent writer who enjoys writting him

[Godlike13]

I have yet to hear anything good about one of the two Titans books, and the other one is apparently not even canon, so that is a weird comparison to make.

Well that’s my point. We also have books with Dick outside of Bludhaven and away from Babs, one where he’s a teacher which was a popular fan pitch, and one where he’s saving the world from big scale threats. Just no one cares about them.

If you have been unfortunate enough like me to actually give the titans book a chance then you have to know that the guy in NW costume over their is not dick but just another generic human leader in superheroe team #305 who also happens to be highly incompetent, he's not even the worst victim, not one single character in that book is competent or in character for that matter, everything I said is contingent upon 'you write dick Grayson in character doing epic things it will sell' the 'in character' part is very important you know lol

I read the Titans books, even though even when it was just a fan pitch I was not big on the idea of them becoming teachers. As I thought it would make them feel old and lame in comparison to the young kids. Nevertheless those books exists right now. So this idea that Bludhaven and Babs is stopping him or putting a cap on him is not quite the case. Cause we have 2 books where they are also doing that kind of “epic” bigger scale stuff and it’s not because of Babs or Bludhaven that they aren’t working.

So it’s rather odd to try to point to the book that is working and try to claim that what it is doing is what is holding him back or putting a cap on him. The reality is they have him doing stuff outside of Bludhaven and away from Babs, it just isn’t any good.

It’s easy to say if you just write dick Grayson in character doing epic things it will sell, but what does that even mean. That’s not a real pitch or genuine idea.

[Iclifton]

no they are not, portraying a morally upstanding character as a cheating piece of garbage is damaging, writing that same character in a setting where you know that he can be himself even though the story potential is limited is not damaging but just underwhelming.

You simply don't have evidence to suggest that nightwing in bludhaven can produce a story as good as 'the gauntlet' it hasn't done after all these years after all, so the burden of proof is on you.

Grayson's very existence suggests that it could be a more beneficial to dick in long term, look at Jace, take away the Batman mantle and the sales he's enjoying will not dip, it will crater and he will become irrelevant, look at dick Grayson, they took away not just nightwing but also the constant crossovers that used to bump nightwing's sales and not only was it a critically acclaimed book but a commercial success outselling everything but Batman and Harley, that alone suggests potential, Jace couldn't survive something like that jason can't survive something like that and Barbra can't survive something like that, dick didn't just survive it thrived and it gave him some of the best stories of his publication history post his Batman stint,

Also that statement about 'atleast I have numbers' is positively ridiculous, you are not comparing apples to apples for one, NW had and continuous to have not just greater media exposure but also greater comic book exposure, you yourself have claimed in past that tim would be a lot more popular if he had a consistent title, well Grayson was supposed to be a 12 issue run then got extended because it did so well then it had its writter and artist pulled for bigger projects in favour of rebirth so yeah you saying well I have numbers' numbers not put in right context are at best meaningless at worst they give you in accurate analysis and yours is just that innacurate

And no if by taking away his connection with bat'fam' you mean 'batfam is not as relevant in his life as it once was then no it won't affect him at all

He has not cheated in this story. Your misinformed. You have no numbers whatsover on your end though. Its pure conjecture. What the numbers I provide do, is present precedent. Even with a push, Grayson was not as well received critically and sales were below Nightwing before the team left. If Grayson had sold as well as Nightwing or been as critically received he would not had reverted to the Nightwing name. Many people love the current run and Dixons run and consider it superior. You just have your preference. Which is okay. But stating it as factually better is wrong.

Again, I loved Grayson. I want to see more stories like it in the future. Hopefully with the Nightwing name attached. But its a matter of preference. Just because Grayson was good, doesn't mean what we are getting is bad or limits the character.

[Iclifton]

I read the Titans books, even though even when it was just a fan pitch I was not big on the idea of them becoming teachers. As I thought it would make them feel old and lame in comparison to the young kids. Nevertheless those books exists right now. So this idea that Bludhaven and Babs is stopping him or putting a cap on him is not quite the case. Cause we have 2 books where they are also doing that kind of “epic” bigger scale stuff and it’s not because of Babs or Bludhaven that they aren’t working. So it’s rather odd to try to point to the book that is working and try to claim that what it is doing is what is holding him back or putting a cap on him.

I think your wording this a lot better than I am. But this exactly what I am trying to say. There is no proof or precedent of these variables limiting Nightwing. Quite the opposite.

[Konja7]

Conjecture.

And I have no issue with Dick being in Bludhaven, it's my preferred city for him to be in when he's not globetrotting. Now, if you were gonna say that a "Nightwing" film would do better than a "Grayson" film, I'd agree; the Nightwing brand is far stronger than "Grayson" but if you took a Grayson-spy plotline, put him in the costume, and called the movie "Nightwing" it wouldn't make much of a difference to the box office; Bludhaven isn't such a well known part of Dick's status quo that general audiences would miss it or refuse to see the film without it.

Honestly, I'm not sure Nightwing is so strong as a brand.

In Nightwing's case, all the popularity of the identity seems to be associated with Dick (and he being the ex Robin). I don't think the Nightwing identity has so much popularity by itself.

[yash]

Well that’s my point. We also have books with Dick outside of Bludhaven and away from Babs, one where he’s a teacher which was a popular fan pitch, and one where he’s saving the world from big scale threats. Just no one cares about them.



I read the Titans books, even though even when it was just a fan pitch I was not big on the idea of them becoming teachers. As I thought it would make them feel old and lame in comparison to the young kids. Nevertheless those books exists right now. So this idea that Bludhaven and Babs is stopping him or putting a cap on him is not quite the case. Cause we have 2 books where they are also doing that kind of “epic” bigger scale stuff and it’s not because of Babs or Bludhaven that they aren’t working. So it’s rather odd to try to point to the book that is working and try to claim that what it is doing is what is holding him back or putting a cap on him.

again 'in character' is a must i get it you are big fan of the relationship but c'mon now even you can admit that it's not the setting but poorly written story that makes it terrible

And i don't get what I'm not getting accross when I say it puts a cap on story potential, when Grayson was a thing and seely was announced as the writter of suicide squad and suggesting on twitter a possible crossover with Grayson we were excited about ss/Grayson/wild storm becoming it's own corner in dc where dick can Duke it out with the likes of maxwell lord and ra and no Batman in sight to save him it all came crashing down but what i mean, meaningful interaction with greater dcu, bludhaven and Barbra puts a cap on those kinds of interactions because no one important is thinking bludhaven is where it's at

[Drako]

There is no cap, y'all are bugging. All the writer have to do is write what he wants.
Percy just did a Wacky Race with Nightwing, wiith Dick being in Bludhaven and Barbara was part of that storyline.

[Iclifton]

again 'in character' is a must i get it you are big fan of the relationship but c'mon now even you can admit that it's not the setting but poorly written story that makes it terrible

And i don't get what I'm not getting accross when I say it puts a cap on story potential, when Grayson was a thing and seely was announced as the writter of suicide squad and suggesting on twitter a possible crossover with Grayson we were excited about ss/Grayson/wild storm becoming it's own corner in dc where dick can Duke it out with the likes of maxwell lord and ra and no Batman in sight to save him it all came crashing down but what i mean, meaningful interaction with greater dcu, bludhaven and Barbra puts a cap on those kinds of interactions because no one important is thinking bludhaven is where it's at

He can do those things now. My point is it has put zero cap on story potential. Its just not your preference and so you present it as fact. One could argue Grayson put a cap on his ability to operate as a superhero. That does not make it true. It is just a matter of preference. Just admit your biased.

[yash]

He has not cheated in this story. Your misinformed. You have no numbers whatsover on your end though. Its pure conjecture. What the numbers I provide do, is present precedent. Even with a push, Grayson was not as well received critically and sales were below Nightwing before the team left. If Grayson had sold as well as Nightwing or been as critically received he would not had reverted to the Nightwing name. Many people love the current run and Dixons run and consider it superior. You just have your preference. Which is okay. But stating it as factually better is wrong.

Again, I loved Grayson. I want to see more stories like it in the future. Hopefully with the Nightwing name attached. But its a matter of preference. Just because Grayson was good, doesn't mean what we are getting is bad or limits the character.

When did I say that he cheated the hell?

Now you are just being difficult and mind numbingly so because you know u don't have a decent argument, Grayson was abandoned because of rebirth not because of sales, they needed him in NW costume for Titans and the overall narrative was 'back to status quo' that is why that ended, so far you have been wrong on many fronts you said 'it recieved considerable push' it didn't 'he got a well recieved team' he didn't, you have been wrong on many fronts and yet you keep chugging along as if nothing happend, what numbers do you want? You just have to look at the sales charts and look for yourself that Grayson was outselling everything dc except Batman and Harley how is that not a proof of concept lol

[Iclifton]

When did I say that he cheated the hell?

Now you are just being difficult and mind numbingly so because you know u don't have a decent argument, Grayson was abandoned because of rebirth not because of sales, they needed him in NW costume for Titans and the overall narrative was 'back to status quo' that is why that ended, so far you have been wrong on many fronts you said 'it recieved considerable push' it didn't 'he got a well recieved team' he didn't, you have been wrong on many fronts and yet you keep chugging along as if nothing happend, what numbers do you want? You just have to look at the sales charts and look for yourself that Grayson was outselling everything dc except Batman and Harley how is that not a proof of concept lol

no they are not, portraying a morally upstanding character as a cheating piece of garbage is damaging, writing that same character in a setting where you know that he can be himself even though the story potential is limited is not damaging but just underwhelming.

No, I am being level headed and impartial. You are presenting a biased argument based on preferene and now doing so rudely. Its obvious you have no evidence to support you. Grayson ended because Nightwing is more popular. It is what is. It always had a shelf life. He can still do all the same stuff now that he could have done back then. Your "story cap" is a delusion.

[yash]

He can do those things now. My point is it has put zero cap on story potential. Its just not your preference and so you present it as fact. One could argue Grayson put a cap on his ability to operate as a superhero. That does not make it true. It is just a matter of preference. Just admit your biased.

no he can't, if they could have happened then they would have happened, again you think I'm attached to the spy angle I'm not, i just think there is a ceiling on how good a story one can tell in bludhaven with nightwing and Barbra, evident by the fact that dick in all these years has yet to have his own 'grim hunt' or 'the gauntlet' or 'roulete' or 'kraven's last hunt' during his nightwing stint

[Godlike13]

again 'in character' is a must i get it you are big fan of the relationship but c'mon now even you can admit that it's not the setting but poorly written story that makes it terrible

And i don't get what I'm not getting accross when I say it puts a cap on story potential, when Grayson was a thing and seely was announced as the writter of suicide squad and suggesting on twitter a possible crossover with Grayson we were excited about ss/Grayson/wild storm becoming it's own corner in dc where dick can Duke it out with the likes of maxwell lord and ra and no Batman in sight to save him it all came crashing down but what i mean, meaningful interaction with greater dcu, bludhaven and Barbra puts a cap on those kinds of interactions because no one important is thinking bludhaven is where it's at

He’s not particularly out of character in those, he just not particularly compelling either. It’s a very simple take on him. Point is though, those books are there. He’s out there. The problem isn’t that he’s not being allowed to do those things.

TTA crossovered with SS, so ya. When Grayson was a thing we talked about a lot of potential ideas. As we still do now. Those thing didn’t happen not because of Bludhaven or Babs, but because they weren’t interested in doing them. Nevertheless we are currently seeing Dick interact with the greater DCU though. It’s only ever been a matter of whether they want to have him do it or not. The bigger accomplishment here is that they have made Nightwing the important book other books want to interact with.

[Iclifton]

no he can't, if they could have happened then they would have happened, it's precisely because they would have happened in all these years that they could have, again you think I'm attached to the spy angle I'm not, i just think there is a ceiling on how good a story one can tell in bludhaven with nightwing and Barbra, evident by the fact that dick in all these years has yet to have his own 'grim hunt' or 'the gauntlet' or 'roulete' or 'kraven's last hunt' during his nightwing stint

Some people would consider this that story. Some people consider Dixons run to be that caliber. its all opinion. But additionally, having strong creative teams helps to get those classics. Dick has not consistently had that. Not many characters do have as many classics as Spider-man.

Its all about what writers choose to write. They could use those story elements. Some could say Grayson limits him from doing superhero stuff long term. Does not make it true. The team just has to decide to use those elements. Barbara or Bludhaven would not get in the way of that.

I have my preference for the character. But I do not act like its fact.

Your pointing to a book that`s killing it and yelling "its holding him back, its not working".