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  1. #46
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    If you want the run Taylor is clearly inspired by, go read Fraction’s Hawkeye. That’s the type of book this is aiming to be, one revolving around character moments rather than big epic plots. Whether Taylor actually succeeds at that is of course subjective.
    For when my rants on the forums just arenít enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  2. #47
    Mighty Member Avi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    You pretty much echoed my sentiments exactly haha but we all know the Nightwing crossover is a Taylor invention because Wally will be his guard, I wouldn't hold my breath for anything significant. It seems like Nightwing's crossover with Superman is also going to be more of a Superman story than Nightwing. So we shall see.

    Watch Dick be either introduced as a child sidekick to Babs, be used as a way for Keaton Baman to "right the past" and do a better job at helping Babs become Batgirl than he did with Dick becoming robin or Dick will be super old and retired and Babs will need him for something and he'll be more like his Batman Beyond self. I really think Batgirl is going to be basically Nightwing in the DCEU. She already has his cop background and being the next Batman.

    I think the cameo in Deathstroke's book was just a nod to the fact that Black Canary used to be one of Babs' best friends and Deathstroke was Dick's arch nemesis. Williamson has always wanted to write Damian, so I expect lots of Damian content in the future.
    To my knowledge Flash isn't crossing over with Nightwing. Wally appears in Nightwing for a normal team-up. At least Taylor only talks about Nightwing/Superman whenever he mentions the word crossover.

    Makes me wonder if they plan to adapt Dark Mirror as a Babsman story by simply switching Dick's and Babs' roles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Itís very average. But we have seen this before, absences makes the heart grow fonder, and the bar set lower. Rebirth Titans saw a lot of this till it eventually wore off and people couldnít deny how poor it was. Not that the Flash is bad like Rebirth Titans, but itís not what I would call particularly strong either. Even Flash Forward saw it initially lol. Wallyís back as the Flash and his book doesnít suck. Thatís a win. But beyond that it not really doing anything above board. Nightwing is the in trend book of the year, and itís making a name doing these kind of interpersonal stories. It should take the lead.
    See, this is what I think about current Nightwing. Dick just has more fans (Fans that made even Ricwing outsell Red Hood: Outlaw and sometimes Batgirl), and Taylor has a built-in fanbase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    The entire run. Thatís what this run is. Itís not about Bludhaven, itís not about some save the day adventure of the week, itís about Dick. Itís about his relationships and sensibilities, itís about how he interacts with his family and situations. Highlighting his character within that. When Dick interacted with Clark they make it a big deal because thatís the kind of moments this book wants people to focus on and see as a big deal. It is a smaller scale, itís not doing traditional superhero save the day arcs, this is a different kind of book in that way. Where itís the moments between its character and others, and his approach to personal challenges thatís driving the book. Where saving a dog is a big deal and resonates with readers.
    This is different in approach, and I understand there is a want for Dick to be seen as a more legitimate level. But at the same time, times are changing. Stories and how they present them need to adapt. Those smaller scale character moments are what a lot of audiences like and respond to now. A hero saving the day each month, while an accomplishment on paper, thatís not what makes noise anymore. Thatís not what gets remembered these days or reposted over the Internet. So if Dick is interacting with Wally, what do we want. A story where thatís the usual or a story where thatís a big deal. Cause at the end of the day thatís the draw there. Thatís the sell. Dick and Wally being together.
    I agree that it is all about relationships and sensibilities and even personal challenges but the execution is so awfully dull.

    Nothing gets to a deep level, either because there cannot be a meaningful conflict or because characters disappear before the story can get into the thick of the interaction. Which of course is the reason why so many panels can be so easily shared on the internet. There's no background information of the actual run required, just a rudimentary understanding of who these characters are supposed to be.

    There could have been a big and proper conversation about what Dick wants to do with the money and how the other characters help him figure it out by sharing their experiences, instead, the big question gets solved in a slide show of panels with characters saying "that's a good idea" without us ever learning about the concrete idea, and then Dick opens a charity foundation like any other character before him, who has had the means and the will to do so. We still don't know what he's doing differently than anyone else that makes his approach so much better than Bruce's or anyone else's.

    Another part of the problem is the pacing. Melinda and her mom have been MIA since June. Dick had his conversation with Clark in August, which I thought was a pretty awkward read, and the "keep an eye on Jon" thread is only getting picked up again in March. Even "big baddy" Heartless has been absent since August.

    These big character interactions you talk about have happened between Dick, Haley, and Babs at most until now.

  3. #48
    Mighty Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    It doesn't matter if Wally spends his time with biggers scopes instead of looking for his dog, I'm sure they will lower the plot to Barbara's boyfriend standar instead of elevated it to a legitimate A list character.

    After all Nightwing is the number one book, even if barely anything happens and the only relationship they have invested in building is the shipping and the dog.

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    If you want the run Taylor is clearly inspired by, go read Fraction’s Hawkeye. That’s the type of book this is aiming to be, one revolving around character moments rather than big epic plots. Whether Taylor actually succeeds at that is of course subjective.
    It is heavily heavily inspired by Fraction Hawkeye in terms of visuals and plot, but only one book actually took the time to really explore its character's psyche. Both Clint and Dick are being portrayed as more clumsy and incompetent, and having a female character needed to kind of prop them up and take a secondary (almost lead) role in the story. The only reason why this approach worked really well for Hawkeye is because he already had an established past of being portrayed as pristine and the lovable guy who has problems. Kinda like how Hal is portrayed, almost. But writers never really fully explored the self-destructive side of Clint, which is where Fraction Hawkeye gets a lot of praise for. Clint is just a guy who has to be in peak human condition 24/7 or else he cant keep up with the rest of his superpowered allies. He is addicted to the call for justice and that effectively has hurt many of his interpersonal relationships and his own self. I think i read somewhere Fraction Hawkeye is about a regular guy pretending to be a superhero. Idk if Nightwing solo fits that bill so far. We shall see.

    I think Taylor's Nightwing is MOST similar to his Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman, which also had a more kid-friendly, "I need to do more for my city" approach. Also, how Babs is used in Nightwing is very similar to how MJ was used in Spiderman. Which again, worked well for Spiderman as a different approach, but idk if it works for Nightwing. We shall see though, as like you said, it is really subjective.

    Also, many Hawkeye fans did complain about how incompetent Clint is now showing up more in canon and the writers missed the point of why Fraction portrayed clint that way in the first place. So even Hawkeye fans found flaws in the run and how it affected the character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    To my knowledge Flash isn't crossing over with Nightwing. Wally appears in Nightwing for a normal team-up. At least Taylor only talks about Nightwing/Superman whenever he mentions the word crossover.

    Makes me wonder if they plan to adapt Dark Mirror as a Babsman story by simply switching Dick's and Babs' roles.
    I thought it was a crossover because Dick is appearing in the Flash book too no? Team ups are cross overs? Ive only been seeing people call it a cross over so we will see lol. Im also pretty sure that even in Snyder's Dark Mirror, it slowly turned more into a Babs is so awesome than Dick is just a better version of Batman lol Its still a great DickBats storyline, but it did have its moments where Babs got to shine. So i can see it being easily adaptable to becoming a Babsbat story rather than DickBats. Im sure that will piss off lots of fans but also I personally wouldn't be surprised. They already hinted at her brother being a talon, so she also could adapt to Court of Owls as well lol.



    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    See, this is what I think about current Nightwing. Dick just has more fans (Fans that made even Ricwing outsell Red Hood: Outlaw and sometimes Batgirl), and Taylor has a built-in fanbase.



    I agree that it is all about relationships and sensibilities and even personal challenges but the execution is so awfully dull.

    Nothing gets to a deep level, either because there cannot be a meaningful conflict or because characters disappear before the story can get into the thick of the interaction. Which of course is the reason why so many panels can be so easily shared on the internet. There's no background information of the actual run required, just a rudimentary understanding of who these characters are supposed to be.

    There could have been a big and proper conversation about what Dick wants to do with the money and how the other characters help him figure it out by sharing their experiences, instead, the big question gets solved in a slide show of panels with characters saying "that's a good idea" without us ever learning about the concrete idea, and then Dick opens a charity foundation like any other character before him, who has had the means and the will to do so. We still don't know what he's doing differently than anyone else that makes his approach so much better than Bruce's or anyone else's.

    Another part of the problem is the pacing. Melinda and her mom have been MIA since June. Dick had his conversation with Clark in August, which I thought was a pretty awkward read, and the "keep an eye on Jon" thread is only getting picked up again in March. Even "big baddy" Heartless has been absent since August.

    These big character interactions you talk about have happened between Dick, Haley, and Babs at most until now.
    Nightwing fans are fiercely loyal and that was seen even in the 90s lol While Nightwing is kinda like that constant for the Batfam (always in that 20-50k range since Dixon). No matter what DC does with the character, it will sell. So who cares if we get 4328943 Batgirl lead stories with Dick in the background, people are going to read it because they don't want Nightwing to be cancelled. Plus, you have the bonus factor of Batgirl fans picking it up for Batgirl content. It's totally the reason the Annual did well. Because both Nightwing and Red Hood picked it up. For a while, Babsgirl fans could only get Babs content from Taylor Nightwing cuz they cancelled Batgirl solo. So it'll be interesting to see if Nightwing numbers shift downward as the Batgirls book picks up steam! I don't think DC will ever actually cancel Nightwing unless another Batfamily book manages to become the new constant that they can use to prop up Batfam content. If the batgirl movie does well enough, it might just be Batgirl solo.

    I actually think here is a HUGE missed opportunity in this story to explore how Ric trauma actually affected Dick. IT just kind of is pretending it didn't happen. And then the whole starting a charity thing was really tone death and you're right, it didn't really get the convo it should have had. Instead, we got the "Batman never really did anything in Gotham" and "I feel like I dont do enough as Nightwing." And those two narratives are not only really OOC, but a slap in the face to everything that Batman has done as a altruistic person, but to everything that Nightwing stood for as a vigilante. Both Batman and Nightwing have gone above and beyond for humanity. How many times has Dick tried to sacrifice himself? How many times has Batman tried to help rehabilitate criminals? I mean batman is the SAME man who jumped to resuscitate Joker and even chastised Dick for not saving Blockbuster. I really just miss the times when Dick was a vigilante because he wanted to help people and that is what his parents would have wanted for him to do. By getting rid of bad guys, Dick is already doing a lot by making it possible for good-natured people to take those powerful positions and do good. I just see so many missed opportunities so far. I mean, we don't even see Dick truly get angry or upset learning about his possible father's infidelity. That is something that i feel would make Dick question his entire view on life. I would have liked to see Dick more antagonistic towards Melinda by vehemently denying she is his sister and not wanting to believe her story because it taints his view of his parents. It reminds of when Harry Potter found out his father was a bully and at first didn't want to believe it but then when he got the proof, he was ashamed because it shattered his idealised image of his father. Of course, John isn't a cheater, but the reaction and introspection of the idea of him being a cheater is what I wanted.

    My dream is for Nightwing to have his own editorial in the same way Batman or Superman do.

  5. #50
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    See, this is what I think about current Nightwing. Dick just has more fans (Fans that made even Ricwing outsell Red Hood: Outlaw and sometimes Batgirl), and Taylor has a built-in fanbase.
    Ric outselling Red Hood: Outlaw and sometimes Batgirl isn't impressive, Red Hood: Outlaw and Batgirl were also selling poorly. Taylor inherited the character and book when they were probably at their most venerable in a very long time. There wasn't a quick turnaround with his return, they let Jurgens waste that, there was no relaunch. Sentiment was trash, readership was in the gutter as a lot of his fanbase left, and fans just incredibly frustrated. The fan base wasn't there anymore. Taylor had to win the fan base back along with a general audience. With a title that had been pretty much written off. Its not like Nightwing fans are known for giving creative a free pass because its just good to see him. Dick's consistently around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    I agree that it is all about relationships and sensibilities and even personal challenges but the execution is so awfully dull.

    Nothing gets to a deep level, either because there cannot be a meaningful conflict or because characters disappear before the story can get into the thick of the interaction. Which of course is the reason why so many panels can be so easily shared on the internet. There's no background information of the actual run required, just a rudimentary understanding of who these characters are supposed to be.

    There could have been a big and proper conversation about what Dick wants to do with the money and how the other characters help him figure it out by sharing their experiences, instead, the big question gets solved in a slide show of panels with characters saying "that's a good idea" without us ever learning about the concrete idea, and then Dick opens a charity foundation like any other character before him, who has had the means and the will to do so. We still don't know what he's doing differently than anyone else that makes his approach so much better than Bruce's or anyone else's.

    Another part of the problem is the pacing. Melinda and her mom have been MIA since June. Dick had his conversation with Clark in August, which I thought was a pretty awkward read, and the "keep an eye on Jon" thread is only getting picked up again in March. Even "big baddy" Heartless has been absent since August.

    These big character interactions you talk about have happened between Dick, Haley, and Babs at most until now.
    Making this run more accessible is intentional. They don't want to dump a lot of background information because they want anyone to just be able to jump in. The opening up of the charity isn't the important thing there, this isn't a book about charities and its ins an out. Though im sure they'll flesh the charity out more as they go. Instead the conversation is about why he wants to open a charity and what's motivating him to do so, trying to get reader to sympathize with Dick. So that even if he fails you want to root for him anyways. Because really what is him opening the charity about, helping Bludheven, no. Its about dealing with Alfred's death. Thats what the conversation was about. This is how he's dealing with the death of a father. I don't even think the charity is a particularly good plan, but it still made me feel something because it was birthed from his relationship with Alfred. And i can get behind that. Because Alfred meant so much to him, and so he wants try to honor the gift one of his fathers left to him. Thats sweet. I can root for that. Thats the kind of stuff that driving this run. Not the opening of a charity, but the why he's opening the charity and the relationship that motivated him to open it. Thats what they are trying to hit on here. This might not be for everybody, some might fine it dull, and thats fine. But i definitely still think they are hitting on something with people here. The book is slow though, thats true. Especially its plot. But again just goes to show the plot isn't the priority here.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-05-2022 at 01:43 PM.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member failo.legendkiller's Avatar
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    Which are the essentials Dick's stories from the start to Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans?

  7. #52
    Mighty Member Avi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    [...]
    I thought it was a crossover because Dick is appearing in the Flash book too no? Team ups are cross overs? Ive only been seeing people call it a cross over so we will see lol.
    Dick appears in Flash because of the War for Earth-3 event not because of the Nightwing title.

    That NW crosses over with Superman was announced in the solicitations, so if NW would crossover with the Flash book, that would have been in the solicitations too. Taylor has said though, that Wally is staying for at least two Issues.

    Team-ups are usually when character A appears in character B's book to play an important role for an arc or one story.

    And yeah, crossovers are one story told over two or more books because the stories and books literally "cross over" to build one overarching narrative.

    Im also pretty sure that even in Snyder's Dark Mirror, it slowly turned more into a Babs is so awesome than Dick is just a better version of Batman lol Its still a great DickBats storyline, but it did have its moments where Babs got to shine. So i can see it being easily adaptable to becoming a Babsbat story rather than DickBats. Im sure that will piss off lots of fans but also I personally wouldn't be surprised. They already hinted at her brother being a talon, so she also could adapt to Court of Owls as well lol.
    Right, there's that.

    I would be unsurprised too and pissed, of course, lol.

    Nightwing fans are fiercely loyal and that was seen even in the 90s lol While Nightwing is kinda like that constant for the Batfam (always in that 20-50k range since Dixon). No matter what DC does with the character, it will sell. So who cares if we get 4328943 Batgirl lead stories with Dick in the background, people are going to read it because they don't want Nightwing to be cancelled. Plus, you have the bonus factor of Batgirl fans picking it up for Batgirl content. It's totally the reason the Annual did well. Because both Nightwing and Red Hood picked it up. For a while, Babsgirl fans could only get Babs content from Taylor Nightwing cuz they cancelled Batgirl solo. So it'll be interesting to see if Nightwing numbers shift downward as the Batgirls book picks up steam! [...]
    Yeah, a lot of Nightwing fans stuck with Ric because they were paranoid that if it got canceled Dick would never return.

    It'll be interesting to see if that changes anything. While Babs appeared in other books, Nightwing was the only 3.99$ book she appeared in and she had the most substantial appearance there until now. Then there was also Tim, whose only other appearance was in Urban Legends.

    I actually think here is a HUGE missed opportunity in this story to explore how Ric trauma actually affected Dick. IT just kind of is pretending it didn't happen. And then the whole starting a charity thing was really tone death and you're right, it didn't really get the convo it should have had. Instead, we got the "Batman never really did anything in Gotham" and "I feel like I dont do enough as Nightwing." And those two narratives are not only really OOC, but a slap in the face to everything that Batman has done as a altruistic person, but to everything that Nightwing stood for as a vigilante. Both Batman and Nightwing have gone above and beyond for humanity. How many times has Dick tried to sacrifice himself? How many times has Batman tried to help rehabilitate criminals? I mean batman is the SAME man who jumped to resuscitate Joker and even chastised Dick for not saving Blockbuster. I really just miss the times when Dick was a vigilante because he wanted to help people and that is what his parents would have wanted for him to do. By getting rid of bad guys, Dick is already doing a lot by making it possible for good-natured people to take those powerful positions and do good. I just see so many missed opportunities so far. I mean, we don't even see Dick truly get angry or upset learning about his possible father's infidelity. That is something that i feel would make Dick question his entire view on life. I would have liked to see Dick more antagonistic towards Melinda by vehemently denying she is his sister and not wanting to believe her story because it taints his view of his parents. It reminds of when Harry Potter found out his father was a bully and at first didn't want to believe it but then when he got the proof, he was ashamed because it shattered his idealised image of his father. Of course, John isn't a cheater, but the reaction and introspection of the idea of him being a cheater is what I wanted.

    My dream is for Nightwing to have his own editorial in the same way Batman or Superman do.
    I mean, I do want them to brush Ric under the rug but then Taylor went and referenced it for convenience sake without it even matching with what Dick did as Ric, so whatever.

    I agree that the two narratives feel OOC. It's as if Dick doesn't know the people he is talking to or about, that's what also got me when he had that talk with Superman. "I don't do enough as Nightwing" would work if it were Dick's insecurities speaking, but the way it is written simply makes it disingenuous to me. If he thought he isn't doing enough, he'd be working his idea over obsessively.

    I would have also liked him to distrust Melinda more and wonder about what having a half-sister truly means to him. Right now the only reason Dick believes her based on almost zero evidence is because Dick is "a positive character" in Taylor's words. Dick should be investigating her even if he isn't openly antagonistic toward her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Ric outselling Red Hood: Outlaw and sometimes Batgirl isn't impressive, Red Hood: Outlaw and Batgirl were also selling poorly. Taylor inherited the character and book when they were probably at their most venerable in a very long time. There wasn't a quick turnaround with his return, they let Jurgens waste that, there was no relaunch. Sentiment was trash, readership was in the gutter as a lot of his fanbase left, and fans just incredibly frustrated. The fan base wasn't there anymore. Taylor had to win the fan base back along with a general audience. With a title that had been pretty much written off. Its not like Nightwing fans are known for giving creative a free pass because its just good to see him. Dick's consistently around.
    Jason and Babs sold poorly while they were themselves and not stripped off the mask, their name, their appearance, and their personality. That's the point. Dick's fan base is loyal to a fault. Especially when there are still Nightwing Variants where he appears in black-and-blue.

    I don't think Taylondo did anything a new #1 couldn't have done. Future State: Nightwing already sold well again.

    Making this run more accessible is intentional. They don't want to dump a lot of background information because they want anyone to just be able to jump in. The opening up of the charity isn't the important thing there, this isn't a book about charities and its ins an out. Though im sure they'll flesh the charity out more as they go. Instead the conversation is about why he wants to open a charity and what's motivating him to do so, trying to get reader to sympathize with Dick. So that even if he fails you want to root for him anyways. Because really what is him opening the charity about, helping Bludheven, no. Its about dealing with Alfred's death. Thats what the conversation was about. This is how he's dealing with the death of a father. I don't even think the charity is a particularly good plan, but it still made me feel something because it was birthed from his relationship with Alfred. And i can get behind that. Because Alfred meant so much to him, and so he wants try to honor the gift one of his fathers left to him. Thats sweet. I can root for that. Thats the kind of stuff that driving this run. Not the opening of a charity, but the why he's opening the charity and the relationship that motivated him to open it. Thats what they are trying to hit on here. This might not be for everybody, some might fine it dull, and thats fine. But i definitely still think they are hitting on something with people here. The book is slow though, thats true. Especially its plot. But again just goes to show the plot isn't the priority here.
    That's nice and all, but the narrative goes out of its way to say Alfred gave him the money because he was sure Dick could do the most good with it out of anyone, and the people Dick asks for help tell him his idea is awesome. But the end result is that Dick uses the money in exactly the way anyone else would have and has done. That's where it all falls flat and dishonors what Alfred wanted - until what Dick is actually doing might maybe be explored a year later.

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    Dick appears in Flash because of the War for Earth-3 event not because of the Nightwing title.

    That NW crosses over with Superman was announced in the solicitations, so if NW would crossover with the Flash book, that would have been in the solicitations too. Taylor has said though, that Wally is staying for at least two Issues.

    Team-ups are usually when character A appears in character B's book to play an important role for an arc or one story.

    And yeah, crossovers are one story told over two or more books because the stories and books literally "cross over" to build one overarching narrative.
    Ahhh ok! I was under the impression it was actually something that was significant in both books haha Becuase Wally is just a bodyguard in Nightwing. So hopefully Dick is doing something meaningful in Flash!


    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    Right, there's that.

    I would be unsurprised too and pissed, of course, lol.
    Idk why I said Dark Mirror, I meant Black Mirror! I donít think Iíd be pissed because at this point Iím not surprised DC would try it. Like I said, theyíve given everything else of his away, why not his best storyline where he doesnít even appear as Nightwing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    Yeah, a lot of Nightwing fans stuck with Ric because they were paranoid that if it got canceled Dick would never return.

    It'll be interesting to see if that changes anything. While Babs appeared in other books, Nightwing was the only 3.99$ book she appeared in and she had the most substantial appearance there until now. Then there was also Tim, whose only other appearance was in Urban Legends.
    Babs has had some appearances here and there in the comics! She def has been picking up steam though. The Gotham knights game seems to promo her heavily!! It feels they are actually trying to commit to her being the female version of Batman finally. I just wanna know how this will affect Nightwing. Becuase if they arnt gonna do anything with him and just focus on the robin mantle and Batgirl/Batman, why not outsource Nightwing to some other company like how milestone does? I would actually be interested to see what another label would do with Nightwing!

    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    I mean, I do want them to brush Ric under the rug but then Taylor went and referenced it for convenience sake without it even matching with what Dick did as Ric, so whatever.

    I agree that the two narratives feel OOC. It's as if Dick doesn't know the people he is talking to or about, that's what also got me when he had that talk with Superman. "I don't do enough as Nightwing" would work if it were Dick's insecurities speaking, but the way it is written simply makes it disingenuous to me. If he thought he isn't doing enough, he'd be working his idea over obsessively.

    I would have also liked him to distrust Melinda more and wonder about what having a half-sister truly means to him. Right now the only reason Dick believes her based on almost zero evidence is because Dick is "a positive character" in Taylor's words. Dick should be investigating her even if he isn't openly antagonistic toward her.
    Yeah I think the general agreement is that dick doesnít seem to be doing much and being overly trusting and positive. Wasnít it Babs who found out who heartless was and his connection with Zucco? I might be misremembering. But Dick isnít really being a vigilante currently whcih to me idk itís weird. Like his most badass moment was with Tim Drake. And then the other great moment was the helicopter. And then thatís it really. I really want more action, detective work and more villains going after Nightwing.

    As for Ric, for me itís jsut a lot of people are asking for it to swept under the rug, but then in the same vein will harass writers for erasing Babs as oracle. Like can we also fight for SOME writing that explores dick mental health? I get it we want to erase Ric, but I also think exploring the aftermath of it will help with exploring the character better.

  9. #54
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Comparing Ric to Oracle is insulting to Oracle. Its showed either a fundamental misunderstanding of Oracle or just ignorance when Lobdell tried to sell that bull. There's nothing to explore, as the Ric story itself ignored it. They squandered that during Ric so id be a waste of time to try to retroactively insert mental health depth into it after the fact. He didn't have brain trauma, he was brainwashed by a magic crystal. Ric isn't the story to fight for lol.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-05-2022 at 06:07 PM.

  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Comparing Ric to Oracle is insulting to Oracle. Its showed either a fundamental misunderstanding of Oracle or just ignorance when Lobdell tried to sell that bull. There's nothing to explore, as the Ric story itself ignored it. They squandered that during Ric so id be a waste of time to try to retroactively insert mental health depth into it after the fact. He didn't have brain trauma, he was brainwashed by a magic crystal. Ric isn't the story to fight for lol.
    Maybe to you, but it’s a story about someone who was shot in the head, got amnesia, and then had to re build their life as someone they had no idea about. Then they had to go through the trauma of regaining memory and then trying to be forced into something he didn’t feel was ready for. He regained his memories and became Nightwing and had to contend with the fact that the woman that he fell with as Ric is still there for him and that he also still loved her as Dick despite the fact that it was Ric who was the one who fell for her in the first. Then on top of that, Dick has to also struggle with rebuilding the pieces to a puzzle he almost destroyed as Ric. But instead of getting a gripping tale about the fall and rise of a hero during a mental health crisis brought on by the trauma of a gun shot to the head who learns that starting over with a new beginning isn’t a bad thing, we get a story that has already be told before with other characters and everything significant that happened including the woman he was hell bent on starting a life with as Dick Grayson, is now gone. All in favor of a tired status quo that should have stopped being relevant when Devin Grayson left the series.

    Oracle isn’t the only character that has experienced disabilities. Everyone hated that Killing joke story and still hate it today despite the fact it gave us oracle in the first place. If killing joker were made today you’d bet that it would receive the same reaction as Ric Grayson. For some reason Oracle is the only character who is allowed to have her disability explored and actually grow from it. Nightwing gets trauma after trauma and then it’s brushed to the side despite the fact his character clearly was bothered by it and contributed to a mental health break down.

    What happens to Dick was just as significant as what happened to Babs. Neither one is worse than the other Becuase they are both horrible traumas that lead to different aftermaths. Only difference is that one character is allowed to address the trauma and explore the possible future with it while the other one is treated like a revolving door for trauma with zero resolution.
    Last edited by MakeNightwingGreatAgain; 01-05-2022 at 08:27 PM.

  11. #56
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Ric wasn’t disabled though. He could do every he could always do, with magic muscle memory superpowers. Ric didn’t experience disabilities after being shot in the head and then had to rebuild himself with those disabilities. He lost a select period of memories, that he did not care about, and became a douche. According to the story though he was a happier and better person then he was before. His trauma was having to be Dick Grayson again. Which pretty much no reader is going to relate to. As that was rather insulting and tone deaf.
    There was no actual trauma or limit of ability there though. Being shot in the head isn’t why he was Ric. That apparently just put him in a short coma. Where he was then brainwashed by a magic crystal and then had to be unbrainwashed by that magic crystal. That’s not what happen to Babs. That is not the story of Oracle. And it’s silly to even claim it’s comparable. They can not later now try to pretend it’s a story about mental trauma and recovery when they made it a story about being brainwashed by a magic crystal.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-05-2022 at 09:37 PM.

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    You guys are both conflating the wrong stories with others while making valid points lol. The equivalent to TKJ was Batman #50, when Dick was shot for the sake of a Batman storyline. Pretty familiar. Ric was the equivalent to Oracle, not just due to it being what follows, but because it was the work of a separate writer making use of the injury to tell a new story. The difference is Oracle's introduction was good and valuable. If Taylor or someone else were in charge of the Ric Grayson storyline, it might have actually built on Dick's character and would be relevant now.

    So no, it's not insulting to compare Dick getting shot to Babs getting shot. Ric's storyline being compared to Oracle's introduction though, that's may not worth discussing.

    I do want to say though, Dick does still suffer from the gunshot in Taylor's Nightwing. Sure, there's no emotional trauma, but Dick recovering from the physical effects of it is baked into the story at least.

  13. #58
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    That's nice and all, but the narrative goes out of its way to say Alfred gave him the money because he was sure Dick could do the most good with it out of anyone, and the people Dick asks for help tell him his idea is awesome. But the end result is that Dick uses the money in exactly the way anyone else would have and has done. That's where it all falls flat and dishonors what Alfred wanted - until what Dick is actually doing might maybe be explored a year later.
    From what I have seen this is the usual thing with Taylor when it comes to politics, he doesn't go beyond simple Twitter takes. I think that in his mind what makes Dick special is that Dick gave all of the money to charity instead of giving 80% or something like that.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayson - The Dark Heir View Post
    You guys are both conflating the wrong stories with others while making valid points lol. The equivalent to TKJ was Batman #50, when Dick was shot for the sake of a Batman storyline. Pretty familiar. Ric was the equivalent to Oracle, not just due to it being what follows, but because it was the work of a separate writer making use of the injury to tell a new story. The difference is Oracle's introduction was good and valuable. If Taylor or someone else were in charge of the Ric Grayson storyline, it might have actually built on Dick's character and would be relevant now.

    So no, it's not insulting to compare Dick getting shot to Babs getting shot. Ric's storyline being compared to Oracle's introduction though, that's may not worth discussing.

    I do want to say though, Dick does still suffer from the gunshot in Taylor's Nightwing. Sure, there's no emotional trauma, but Dick recovering from the physical effects of it is baked into the story at least.
    Your broadening the scope to justify the comparison, misrepresenting the context in which the comparisons was used. It’s like saying well they are both comic book stories so they are comparable. But that’s not the context in which the comparison was originally brought up. Oracle was brought up as an example of a story of someone who experienced a trauma and had to now live with a disability or aftermath. But that wasn’t the story of Ric. To try and sell it as such by comparing it to Oracle is insulting. Ric wasn’t dealing with a disability or mental trauma after being shot in the head. It dealt with magic brainwashing. They turned Dick being shot into a brainwashing plot. So they can’t now just undo that and pretend there was trauma to explore there or claim it was anything like Oracle. Even the idea that he didn’t want to be Dick again isn’t something they can do anything with, because it’s so opposite of a position of the readers. No one can get behind it. Being Ric literally drove readers away. Having Dick want Ric, when they knew no one else in the world wanted Ric, was such an F you by Ric’s old writer on their way out. Bitter that their work was so widely rejected.

    Also if we were just comparing Batman 50 to the TKJ we wouldn’t be using the titles of “Ric” and “Oracle”.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-06-2022 at 02:28 AM.

  15. #60
    Mighty Member Avi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by failo.legendkiller View Post
    Which are the essentials Dick's stories from the start to Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans?
    Hmm... depends on what you think of as essential.

    Here are some stories that I think represent quite well how Dick was like in the years prior to NTT:


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