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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    Hmm... depends on what you think of as essential.

    Here are some stories that I think represent quite well how Dick was like in the years prior to NTT:

    Where this list is from?
    DC: Dick Grayson, Wally West, Donna Troy, Yara Flor, Titans

    My favorite Mangas: One Piece, Slam Dunk, Fullmetal Alchemist, HunterXHunter, Vinland Saga, 20th Century Boys, Monster, Attack on Titan.
    Current reading: Vagabond, Berserk, Dead Dead Dededede Destruction, Jujutsu Kaisen, Real, Chainsaw Man.

  2. #62
    Mighty Member Avi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    Yeah I think the general agreement is that dick doesnít seem to be doing much and being overly trusting and positive. Wasnít it Babs who found out who heartless was and his connection with Zucco? I might be misremembering. But Dick isnít really being a vigilante currently whcih to me idk itís weird. Like his most badass moment was with Tim Drake. And then the other great moment was the helicopter. And then thatís it really. I really want more action, detective work and more villains going after Nightwing.


    As for Ric, for me itís jsut a lot of people are asking for it to swept under the rug, but then in the same vein will harass writers for erasing Babs as oracle. Like can we also fight for SOME writing that explores dick mental health? I get it we want to erase Ric, but I also think exploring the aftermath of it will help with exploring the character better.
    Babs found all that out about Melinda not Heartless. There hasn't been any investigation as to who Heartless is or where they are from yet as far as I know. Though "found out" isn't saying much. Melinda's last name is Zucco. Doesn't take Babs' genius to figure that out, and Babs suddenly lost the ability to read redacted FBI files. So while Babs is more aware of her surroundings compared to Dick, her abilities have also taken a hit.

    I get what you mean. I do think Dick's mental health deserves to be explored in general, and I would have liked an exploration of how the bullet affected his abilities in the actual Ric arc, but the Ric arc as it happened was never about Dick.

    To me the difference between Oracle and Ric is this:

    Oracle was created to build Babs up after the Killing Joke was horrendous toward her. Oracle is an empowering identity created by a writer (Ostrander) that cared for her character and that was built upon by other writers that cared for her (like Dixon and Simone).

    Ric was an editorial mandate that was carried out to isolate and screw over Dick's character even though he wasn't supposed to be affected permanently by the bullet.
    • If Tom King had gotten his way, Dick getting shot would have been handwaved the way Jason, Damian, and Dick getting hanged in the Batcave did.
    • If writers (like Percy) that cared for Dick had gotten to do the story, there'd be an actual disability to speak of and something closer to the Oracle situation.
    • What we got, as Godlike13 has pointed out, is magical brainwashing.


    What hurt Barbara was The Killing Joke. What hurt Dick was Ric.

    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    From what I have seen this is the usual thing with Taylor when it comes to politics, he doesn't go beyond simple Twitter takes. I think that in his mind what makes Dick special is that Dick gave all of the money to charity instead of giving 80% or something like that.
    Yeah, you're right that's how Taylor writes politics, and, lol, I could see that being a thought process.

  3. #63
    Mighty Member Avi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Where this list is from?
    It's my personal reading list but stripped off a few titles that I didn't think of as essential. Most of the Issue recs come from this Tumblr post: Recommeded reading for Dick Grayson / Robin and Nightwing by northoftheroad

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    It's my personal reading list but stripped off a few titles that I didn't think of as essential. Most of the Issue recs come from this Tumblr post: Recommeded reading for Dick Grayson / Robin and Nightwing by northoftheroad
    Thanks!

    Your list is very clean and informative, looks like something from an encyclopedia.
    DC: Dick Grayson, Wally West, Donna Troy, Yara Flor, Titans

    My favorite Mangas: One Piece, Slam Dunk, Fullmetal Alchemist, HunterXHunter, Vinland Saga, 20th Century Boys, Monster, Attack on Titan.
    Current reading: Vagabond, Berserk, Dead Dead Dededede Destruction, Jujutsu Kaisen, Real, Chainsaw Man.

  5. #65
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    From what I have seen this is the usual thing with Taylor when it comes to politics, he doesn't go beyond simple Twitter takes. I think that in his mind what makes Dick special is that Dick gave all of the money to charity instead of giving 80% or something like that.
    If only Bruce had thought of that .

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBrianTallent View Post
    Was this image ever actually published as a cover?
    No

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Thought this tidbit from Tynion’s newsletter was interesting and it sort of gives insight into why Bludhaven is the way it is:

    To this end – Moving the Bat-Family members away from the Batman Mythology never accomplishes what folks want it to (Bludhaven doesn’t count it’s still in the larger Gotham Metropolitan area, and the recent Robin series took Damian out of Gotham to explore new corners of the larger world around the Al Ghul family which all works great).

    Guess this explains why they ditched the Las Vegas aesthetic. From their perspective Bludhaven is in Gotham
    Groan

    By the way what do folks wanted?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    No



    Groan

    By the way what do folks wanted?
    Maybe from Tynions perspective it is a part of Gotham, but its not. I do not even think DC editorial agrees. Every time Bludhaven is mentioned in story it is called a city. It has its own government officials and mayor. That's a city. A city next door to Gotham. But a city none the less.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 01-06-2022 at 11:15 AM.

  8. #68
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    It doesn't matter how it is called, what matters is how it is used.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    It doesn't matter how it is called, what matters is how it is used.
    Yes and it is used as a city. Hence why it has its own government officials and Mayor. A major plot point in the current run.

    Just a city that is extremely close to Gotham.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avi View Post
    I get what you mean. I do think Dick's mental health deserves to be explored in general, and I would have liked an exploration of how the bullet affected his abilities in the actual Ric arc, but the Ric arc as it happened was never about Dick.

    To me the difference between Oracle and Ric is this:

    Oracle was created to build Babs up after the Killing Joke was horrendous toward her. Oracle is an empowering identity created by a writer (Ostrander) that cared for her character and that was built upon by other writers that cared for her (like Dixon and Simone).

    Ric was an editorial mandate that was carried out to isolate and screw over Dick's character even though he wasn't supposed to be affected permanently by the bullet.
    • If Tom King had gotten his way, Dick getting shot would have been handwaved the way Jason, Damian, and Dick getting hanged in the Batcave did.
    • If writers (like Percy) that cared for Dick had gotten to do the story, there'd be an actual disability to speak of and something closer to the Oracle situation.
    • What we got, as Godlike13 has pointed out, is magical brainwashing.


    What hurt Barbara was The Killing Joke. What hurt Dick was Ric.
    I hate to drag this out, and this will probably be the last thing ill say about it.

    This is exactly what I mean. Writers cared more to explore the aftermath of Killing Joke for Babs than they cared to explore the aftermath of Ric with Dick. The person that Ric was, was Dick. They are one in the same. Ric = Dick. Its part of the mental trauma. Its a real thing that happens to people and its a continuously studied phenomenon. A very well known case about this was about a named named Phineas Gage who had gotten a pole stuck in his head. It didnt kill him, but it did drastically change his personality to the point he was an entirely different person to the ones he loved. The entire Ric Grayson era was about Dick loosing his memory/self and then re-emerging as a different version of himself no one else knew. Yeah how they handled it was horrible, and I get it, the magic thing was brought in to try and fix it, it doesnt negate what happened is what I'm saying. Just like how no matter if you prefer superman prime punching reality or the Lazarus pit, Jason still died and came back to life. Babs still was disabled despite the fat technology randomly fixed her spine. Both characters still continue to work through their trauma and get to grow from it. It definitely boils down to the fact that the writers cared so little about Dick as a character that instead of being respectful to an actual real trauma, they shat all over it. Just because it was handled poorly doesnt mean we just toss it out the window. That's how we got trauma for Dick as a character trait in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    It doesn't matter how it is called, what matters is how it is used.
    100% whether Bludhaven was a city or a district, its all about how its used. And its been used as a Gotham lite city for years now no matter how much Seeley tried to turn it into a poor mans Atlantic City. It just doesnt work for me for me anymore because it has outlived its original purpose. The moment Seeley showed that Dick can strive in NYC on his own, that should have been the moment DC got rid of Bludhaven for good. Even in Higgin's run, Chicago was established as a much better home base for Dick. Bludhaven just never was and never will be, unfortunately.
    Last edited by MakeNightwingGreatAgain; 01-06-2022 at 05:16 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    100% whether Bludhaven was a city or a district, its all about how its used. And its been used as a Gotham lite city for years now no matter how much Seeley tried to turn it into a poor mans Atlantic City. It just doesnt work for me for me anymore because it has outlived its original purpose. The moment Seeley showed that Dick can strive in NYC on his own, that should have been the moment DC got rid of Bludhaven for good. Even in Higgin's run, Chicago was established as a much better home base for Dick. Bludhaven just never was and never will be, unfortunately.
    That's my point. It does not matter whether it is liked or not. The point is it is it`s own city.

    I could not care less whether Dick is in Bludhaven or international. I loved Grayson and I also like the more character centric down to earth tone Taylors going for. However, this run is shaping up to be one of, if not THE most successful Nightwing solo run (critical reception and sales). The other most successful and definitely most influential Nightwing solo was Dixon.

    Both Bludhaven. I`d be willing to take a pretty sizable bet that if he gets his own show or movie, it will also be in Bludhaven.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
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    I don't remember Seeley writing Dick in NY. Also, how is NY or Chicago better than Bludhaven other than personal bias?

    The first arc Higgins did in Chicago was about Tony Zucco, cause he wanted to make the city more personal to Dick, same thing people complain about Miranda right now..
    Also, there is zero supporting characters for that era worth noticing.
    DC: Dick Grayson, Wally West, Donna Troy, Yara Flor, Titans

    My favorite Mangas: One Piece, Slam Dunk, Fullmetal Alchemist, HunterXHunter, Vinland Saga, 20th Century Boys, Monster, Attack on Titan.
    Current reading: Vagabond, Berserk, Dead Dead Dededede Destruction, Jujutsu Kaisen, Real, Chainsaw Man.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    I don't remember Seeley writing Dick in NY. Also, how is NY or Chicago better than Bludhaven other than personal bias?

    The first arc Higgins did in Chicago was about Tony Zucco, cause he wanted to make the city more personal to Dick, same thing people complain about Miranda right now..
    Also, there is zero supporting characters for that era worth noticing.
    Seeley didn`t write him in New York and you are 100% correct. Its just a personal bias against Bludhaven. Chicago and New York are in no way better cities for him and have never had a story even close to the quality we are getting now.

    I feel like I see a similar bias from many of the people who criticize the use of Barbara or other Bats as side characters in the run who then go on to praise the Tomasi run. I also like the Tomasi run, but pretty much the entire supporting cast and villains were bat related.

    Additionally, I would like to add, I am overjoyed we are not dealing with Ric more in depth. I dont care that it in real life it would be a trauma. It was a dumb story decision designed solely to take Dick off the board for Kings run. A stunt. Nothing more. The less its mentioned the better. Barbara's road to recovery and time as Oracle was an amazing story. Jason`s death and return is what made him relevant. Dick getting shot in the head, pointless. A waste of time.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 01-06-2022 at 06:33 PM.

  14. #74
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    I still hope for Dylan O’Brien becomes Nightwing
    But Mena Massoud would also be great option. Ludi Lin should be a contender

  15. #75
    Extraordinary Member K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    The other most successful and definitely most influential Nightwing solo was Dixon.
    Indeed. Couldn't agree with you more.


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