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  1. #346

  2. #347
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Thoughts:

    - Poor Adams having to explain why Bart isn't in it.

    - "Sidekick" so I guess Wallace/Ace is now officially Wally's Kid Flash?

    - I'm glad he really likes Jesse. I don't think Max is that hard to get if you read Bart's Impulse run, but I never really saw him as an "Old West" guy.

    - That Batfamily shade .

    - Wondering who is "going off to college."

  3. #348
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link!
    For me, Adams has pretty much not put a foot wrong since he took over the book.
    I can't wait to read his next few issues.
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
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  4. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'd probably change the color of Jesse's pants if she had to have them.
    Why wouldn't she wear pants? All the other speedsters do. Or do you just expect her to have more skin exposed because she's the only adult female in the Flash Family?

    At least she's not Liberty Belle and married off to a character she never had a line of dialogue with beforehand because Johns can't build up a romance properly.

  5. #350
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    It's more interesting if characters have distinct and individual costumes. The shorts give the impression of an athlete, which pairs well with her running powers.With this costume she just looks like another Flash variant. Why is she wearing the Barry Allen Flash emblem, instead of something derived from the Johnny Quick emblem?

  6. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    It's more interesting if characters have distinct and individual costumes. The shorts give the impression of an athlete, which pairs well with her running powers.With this costume she just looks like another Flash variant. Why is she wearing the Barry Allen Flash emblem, instead of something derived from the Johnny Quick emblem?
    The shorts do nothing but show off her bare legs. No "impression of an athlete" is being made. You're not answering the question of *why* Jesse has to have bare legs just to be "distinct," let alone convincing me it has nothing to be her being a woman who therefore must show more skin. But I'll agree with you that she should have her father's emblem.

  7. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    The shorts do nothing but show off her bare legs. No "impression of an athlete" is being made.
    Olympic runners wear shorts. Flash wore shorts in The Dark Knight Strikes Again, which gave him a more athletic look too. A bit more the look of a cyclist than a runner, but it bridges the gap between real life athletic wear and the conventions of super-hero costumes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    You're not answering the question of *why* Jesse has to have bare legs just to be "distinct," let alone convincing me it has nothing to be her being a woman who therefore must show more skin.
    I didn't say she had to. But, as you pointed out, none of the other main speedsters wear shorts, so it does make her costume more distinct. It's not the only way to make her costume more distinct, but it's a way.

    Jesse Quick has had lots of costumes, but none of them stuck around for very long and most of them weren't very good. She's a character whose look has never quite been figured out, there's no one iconic Jesse Quick costume that serves as a standard or a template. But there are a few recurring elements, and bare legs (sometimes a costume with shorts, sometimes a leotard based costume) is one of them. It's an option.

    With this costume, recurring elements they've retained from previous costumes are the red/yellow color scheme, exposed blonde hair, goggles and jacket. The color scheme is fine, but overlaps with the Flashes. The goggles are good, but overlap with Impulse a little (as does chin strap). The jacket is distinct, but not a good fit for a character who's a runner. The long blonde hair is good, but for a runner it makes more sense tied back into a ponytail (as was the case with a couple of previous looks). Then they've added a couple of Barry Allen Flash elements, like the big yellow boots and the emblem.

    The costume is essentially a slight variation on the costume she wore in Terminal Velocity. But in that story, she was wearing that costume under the premise that Wally might die and she would replace him as the new Flash (which, it turned out, was a bait and switch). That wasn't Jesse Chambers wearing a Jesse Quick costume, that was Jesse Chambers wearing a Flash costume.

    It's just not a very well thought out costume if they want her to be a distinct character. Maybe they don't want her to be a distinct character, maybe they just want her to be another Flash.

  8. #353
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    Why wouldn't she wear pants? All the other speedsters do. Or do you just expect her to have more skin exposed because she's the only adult female in the Flash Family?
    I mean, I'm basing it off her past costumes and her tendency to not wear pants .
    At least she's not Liberty Belle and married off to a character she never had a line of dialogue with beforehand because Johns can't build up a romance properly.
    I liked her and Rick together. Although with her and the JSA probably rebooted (I know Johns is pushing Rick and Beth on the TV show) maybe that was undone.

    I think Johns can build up a romance quite fine, especially since I've enjoyed several of the romances he's written, but your mileage may vary.

  9. #354
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    Why wouldn't she wear pants? All the other speedsters do. Or do you just expect her to have more skin exposed because she's the only adult female in the Flash Family?
    Yes, in that particular case, that is the only concern to be had in the shorts X pants debate. Maybe it wouldn't be the case of Jesse existed in a vacuum where "less clothes" wasn't synonymous with "female superhero from the family". But she doesn't, so pants are the way to be taken seriously.

    Other than that, most if not all hot takes about "being distinct" or "unique" or "particular" come either from a very, very poor understanding of how design actually works, what's actually supposed to accomplish or just plain old bias.

    I do concede that her emblem is a little problematic, and there are easy solutions to it, but since Jesse is THE FLASH on Earth 11 right now, and DC sends to be trying to build on it, it's logical, even if not my personal choice.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Yes, in that particular case, that is the only concern to be had in the shorts X pants debate. Maybe it wouldn't be the case of Jesse existed in a vacuum where "less clothes" wasn't synonymous with "female superhero from the family". But she doesn't, so pants are the way to be taken seriously.

    Other than that, most if not all hot takes about "being distinct" or "unique" or "particular" come either from a very, very poor understanding of how design actually works, what's actually supposed to accomplish or just plain old bias.

    I do concede that her emblem is a little problematic, and there are easy solutions to it, but since Jesse is THE FLASH on Earth 11 right now, and DC sends to be trying to build on it, it's logical, even if not my personal choice.
    Well, people usually come at designs with their own perspective, values, and tastes.

    Of course I also don't believe fully clothed = better design by default.

  11. #356
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, people usually come at designs with their own perspective, values, and tastes.

    Of course I also don't believe fully clothed = better design by default.
    Nothing wrong with taste, at all. I love the look Clark is sporting in Superman and the Authority, for instance. That look doesn't serve the main Superman book or character well, though. Design serves a function (that's why it's design, not art, even the overlap exists).

    And fully clothed does not mean "better design". Sometimes, it may make something worse, visually. But it's 2022, when when you design or redesign a female character, first thing going one should take into account is if said design is reinforcing sexist stereotypes or tropes. Same goes for POCs or LGBT+ characters. It's just a necessity of the times.
    Last edited by BohemiaDrinker; 05-22-2022 at 04:31 PM.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

    To do spoiler tags, use [ spoil ] at the start of the sentence and [ /spoil ] at the end, without the spaces. You're welcome!

  12. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Nothing wrong with taste, at all. I love the look Clark is sporting in Superman and the Authority, for instance. That look doesn't serve the main Superman book or character well, though. Design serves a function (that's why it's design, not art, even the overlap exists).

    And fully clothed does not mean "better design". Sometimes, it may make something worse, visually. But it's 2022, when when you design or redesign a female character, first thing going one should take into account is if said design is reinforcing sexist stereotypes or tropes. Same goes for POCs or LGBT+ characters. It's just a necessity of the times.
    I think it should be a matter of whether a look is aesthetically pleasing or memorable. If you can capture a look that does that, fully clothed or otherswise, and is true to the character than you have a winner.

    But your mileage may vary.

  13. #358
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    XS essentially has a cyclist style costume. I've never seen anyone take issue with her design.

  14. #359
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    A moment of silence that CW did more Flash contents than any DC properties.

  15. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Yes, in that particular case, that is the only concern to be had in the shorts X pants debate. Maybe it wouldn't be the case of Jesse existed in a vacuum where "less clothes" wasn't synonymous with "female superhero from the family". But she doesn't, so pants are the way to be taken seriously.

    Other than that, most if not all hot takes about "being distinct" or "unique" or "particular" come either from a very, very poor understanding of how design actually works, what's actually supposed to accomplish or just plain old bias.

    I do concede that her emblem is a little problematic, and there are easy solutions to it, but since Jesse is THE FLASH on Earth 11 right now, and DC sends to be trying to build on it, it's logical, even if not my personal choice.
    I mean, just in the 21st century, we saw Huntress (Bertenelli) go from wearing a costume that covered up her whole body (and was featured while she was a part of Morrisson's JLA run) to suddenly wearing one in which she not only had bare legs, but a bare midriff, for no other reason than Jim Lee thought she needed a sexier look. I'm aware her first look had bare arms and upper thighs, but 1) she wore long gloves and high boots, and 2) she didn't have a bare midriff. And yeah, when Gail Simone had her start appearing in Birds of Prey, she had Huntress give a reason for it when Dinah asked her about it ("800 stomach crunches a day" or something), but that's Gail acknowledging that in-universe, there needed to be a reason for it that wasn't "because a male designer wanted more male fans to drool over me."

    I once saw an argument between Cassandra Cain fans and a particularly hateful anti-fan of Cass/fan of Barbara-as-Batgirl in which the anti-fan admitted that he'd be more likely to give Cass a chance as Batgirl if her costume was altered to be "more feminine" in appearance.

    I still remember to this day when some fan (I think it was when DC had message boards on their site) demanded that Kendra Saunders be killed off and immediately replaced with a resurrected Shiera Hall simply because he found Kendra less sexually appealing visually (he hated her short brown hair and her smaller breasts and hips) than he found Shiera (long red hair, bigger breasts and hips/ass). That was it. One woman HAD to die because he didn't think she was hot enough.

    Black Canary & fishnets, hell, Zatanna and fishnets, too. A lot of fans fetishize those 'nets WAY too much. Hell, the appreciation thread for Canary is mostly artists' sketches of her.

    And going across the aisle to Marvel, I got two words: Carol Danvers. More than a few fans didn't even TRY to disguise that their unhappiness with her redesign after taking the name "Captain Marvel" was because her new costume covered up her assets or that she now had shorter hair. Some guy wrote a polemic about his "God-given right" to look at cheesecake art whenever he wanted and how Carol's new costume and hair infringed upon that right.

    Point being, if I see somebody make a passive-aggressive remark about "if Jesse Quick *has* to wear pants," and it's obvious nobody would EVER make that remark about any of the male Flash Family members, I get suspicious.

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