Wally West: The Flash Appreciation 2022

[kcekada]

I think the Rebirth suit is still popular because it's a good design even if you think the exposed hair is too Kid Flash.

Exposed hair is always better than skin cap (unless the character is bald!).

[kcekada]

So I've been looking up some of Wally's early stuff after first becoming The Flash and I gotta say some of his characterization was... interesting.

Baron's Wally had no similarity with the Marv Wolfman's Wally. It's was a very weird and abrupt departure from how Wally had always been written (easy-going, small town guy). I had always been a fan of Wally, but I dropped Baron's Flash until the next writer came on board. Baron's Wally was a douche. I always imagined that Baron was giving Wally his own personality.

[Hol]

He just came off as a snob and a bully in a lot of those interactions with me. I liked that the animated version was flawed, but didn't treat people like they were beneath him. Even in the Johns run, he just seemed like he had no tolerance for anybody that wasn't Linda or Iris.

Well with Kyle he was just annoyed by this guy who was all of a sudden Green Lantern after his "uncle" had fell from grace. It was misplaced anger. Impulse reminded him of himself. The part of himself that he wasn't exactly proud of. I think a lot of people are like that. We get annoyed of people who remind us of our worst qualities.

I dunno I think Wally in the Johns run was the same character as in Waids run. (the book and world around him was darker) He befriended the police, Zolomon and was there for Piper and the people of Keystone. Always stopping to talk to them. He was a jerk to Ashley Zolomon but again that was misplaced anger for Hunter.

[Hol]

The only problem of Waid run is that he basically keep making Linda as a "damsel in distress" or "Plot device". It's quite tiresome to keep seeing her like that in almost every arc. Abra, Kobra, Neron and even freaking Black Flash (though that was written by Grant Morrison) but still consider under Waid era.

I am just glad Jeremy doesn't use her again in the same manner. She deserve to have a break.

I dunno, I think Linda was badass in the Kobra arcs.

[Refrax5]

Well with Kyle he was just annoyed by this guy who was all of a sudden Green Lantern after his "uncle" had fell from grace. It was misplaced anger. Impulse reminded him of himself. The part of himself that he wasn't exactly proud of. I think a lot of people are like that. We get annoyed of people who remind us of our worst qualities.

I dunno I think Wally in the Johns run was the same character as in Waids run. (the book and world around him was darker) He befriended the police, Zolomon and was there for Piper and the people of Keystone. Always stopping to talk to them. He was a jerk to Ashley Zolomon but again that was misplaced anger for Hunter.

He was also a jerk to Jesse Quick and Angela Margolin. He always assumed the worst about the Rogues whereas Barry showed them compassion, etc. Waid's Wally wasn't this sort of forced "blue collar" guy Johns turned him into, nor did he say things under Waid about how he supports the death penalty because "some people need to die." He was pretty dramatically different. His Wally was a huge dick to people. I don't really buy the misplaced anger thing, since that's probably the reason most people are bullies and jerks in the first place. Johns also had Jai saying how Wally isn't understanding and Wally say he can't relate to his kids. I don't think that's just a Wally thing, to be fair. I think Johns turned Barry into a huge a-hole and I didn't exactly love the way he turned Hal into the douchey military guy that was fine with bombing people and killing his enemies with quips.

But with Wally, even Waid wrote him as a jerk sometimes. It always bugged me.

[Rend20]

He always assumed the worst about the Rogues whereas Barry showed them compassion, etc.

What is this based on?

Wally actually befriended the Rogues after they reformed. Not only was he close friends with Piper, but the likes of Len, Lisa, and Mick were invited to cookouts at his place and joined the "save Wally" squad during the Messner-Loebs issues. Prior to Johns, a lot of the Rogues respected Wally because he treated them like people.

I don't see how anyone can say Wally always assumed the worst of them when he literally looked past their previous actions and gave them a chance to the point he became friends with a lot of them.

[John Venus]

I can't comment on Johns run. That's the one run I avoided reading except for a handful of comics. My disdain for what he did to the Flash franchise from Flash: Rebirth (2011) is so great that I will probably hating it on principle.

But during Messner-Loebs run Wally took his date to a party with the Rogues and he was very chill with them.

He just came off as a snob and a bully in a lot of those interactions with me. I liked that the animated version was flawed, but didn't treat people like they were beneath him. Even in the Johns run, he just seemed like he had no tolerance for anybody that wasn't Linda or Iris.

Maybe it's the Johns but I can't recall Wally seeing people beneath him. To me, he just came across as impulsive, lacked patience and had a tough time dealing with people who weren't on the same page as him. I mean, despite his initial reluctance he went and saved the daughter of the landlord who gave him a hard time from Vandal Savage and he did it while his powers were still on the fritz.

He didn't listen to Max Mercury at first but I always thought it was because he lost a mentor already and didn't want to accept anyone other than Barry. But he eventually came around and started listening to Max.

Baron's Wally had no similarity with the Marv Wolfman's Wally. It's was a very weird and abrupt departure from how Wally had always been written (easy-going, small town guy). I had always been a fan of Wally, but I dropped Baron's Flash until the next writer came on board. Baron's Wally was a douche. I always imagined that Baron was giving Wally his own personality.

I thought Wolfman had no idea what to do with Wally most of the time. He admitted as much in later years and it's obvious even in his writing. Wally was perpetually unsure of himself and the only story lines he got revolved around Raven, if not her, it was Magenta. Otherwise, he was directionless.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

Yeah, I've been reading some of my old Waid Flash comics and with the much more well adjusted version presented by Adams in the new series, I forgot how much more... abrasive, a younger Wally West was. Not in a bad way at all, mind you, as a big part of why I like Wally West so much is that he is still 100% a hero and a good dude despite having obvious flaws like a severe lack of patience and that strange but common mix of arrogance and insecurity. Apparently a large part of that is Waid putting a lot of himself in the character - and as near as I can tell the same applies to Waid himself in that he's a good dude but you don't want to get on the wrong side of him - and it's why no one has quite captured Wally's voice anywhere near as perfectly, before or since, and why he is still one of the most well rounded superhero characters ever.

I do take issue with the idea that Wally has ever been shown as a snob in any of his appearances since Messner-Loebs' run. He doesn't suffer fools gladly and he can rush to conclusions about people unfairly (Bary and Kyle, especially) but I don't see him as ever thinking of himself as being above the "common man". Quite the opposite, if anything.

[LAWtoyoto 432]

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Loves how the Flashes serve as touring guide/announcement for the Hall of Justice.

[Frontier]

He was also a jerk to Jesse Quick and Angela Margolin. He always assumed the worst about the Rogues whereas Barry showed them compassion, etc. Waid's Wally wasn't this sort of forced "blue collar" guy Johns turned him into, nor did he say things under Waid about how he supports the death penalty because "some people need to die." He was pretty dramatically different. His Wally was a huge dick to people. I don't really buy the misplaced anger thing, since that's probably the reason most people are bullies and jerks in the first place. Johns also had Jai saying how Wally isn't understanding and Wally say he can't relate to his kids. I don't think that's just a Wally thing, to be fair. I think Johns turned Barry into a huge a-hole and I didn't exactly love the way he turned Hal into the douchey military guy that was fine with bombing people and killing his enemies with quips.

Wow, we had two very different takeaways from Johns' writing here...

I can't comment on Johns run. That's the one run I avoided reading except for a handful of comics. My disdain for what he did to the Flash franchise from Flash: Rebirth (2011) is so great that I will probably hating it on principle.

I feel like it's fine to read the run divorced from Flash: Rebirth because it honestly has nothing to do with it and is just about Wally and expanding his mythos. Like, if you don't like the actual execution of the run and it isn't your thing, I get it, but its like the complete antithesis of Flash: Rebirth (which sounds odd knowing it was written by the same man but I don't think even Johns is that proud of it).

[John Venus]

I'm just saying, I'm way too biased at this point to be able to judge his run objectively.

And at this point, I read mainly for pleasure and escapism. I don't like to be reminded of stories I greatly dislike. I'll read it sometime later but not at this point in time.

[Refrax5]

What is this based on?

Wally actually befriended the Rogues after they reformed. Not only was he close friends with Piper, but the likes of Len, Lisa, and Mick were invited to cookouts at his place and joined the "save Wally" squad during the Messner-Loebs issues. Prior to Johns, a lot of the Rogues respected Wally because he treated them like people.

I don't see how anyone can say Wally always assumed the worst of them when he literally looked past their previous actions and gave them a chance to the point he became friends with a lot of them.

You're right about that. I was more thinking of the Johns era where he said he had no tolerance for the Rogues and even in the big Flash anniversary issue a few years ago, which revolved around him just assuming the worst of Captain Cold in that short story. I just always think of Wally acting so hardline towards criminals in that run and him saying how he believed in the death penalty because "some people need to die."

Messner-Loebs and Waid definitely wrote the best Wally alongside the animated version.

[Refrax5]

Wow, we had two very different takeaways from Johns' writing here...

I feel like it's fine to read the run divorced from Flash: Rebirth because it honestly has nothing to do with it and is just about Wally and expanding his mythos. Like, if you don't like the actual execution of the run and it isn't your thing, I get it, but its like the complete antithesis of Flash: Rebirth (which sounds odd knowing it was written by the same man but I don't think even Johns is that proud of it).

I was just referencing the Hal story where he's bombing terrorist camps and how overly hard Johns wrote him as this arrogant "alpha male" guy. Johns also wrote Wally and Ralph as making fun of a gay character's crush on Hal, which I also add to my personal "Johns writes Hal and Wally as dicks" file. Also, Hal blowing that Sinestro Corps guys head off casually is such a far cry from the Hal Jordan that told Kyle, "A real hero doesn't kill. I've never even thought about it" in Emerald Knights.

Also, Barry telling Wally that he covered for the JLA mindwiping villains was a "habit" for him as a policeman because of the blue wall is VERY gross to read.

[Frontier]

You're right about that. I was more thinking of the Johns era where he said he had no tolerance for the Rogues and even in the big Flash anniversary issue a few years ago, which revolved around him just assuming the worst of Captain Cold in that short story. I just always think of Wally acting so hardline towards criminals in that run and him saying how he believed in the death penalty because "some people need to die."

Messner-Loebs and Waid definitely wrote the best Wally alongside the animated version.

Granted, The Rogues by that point had kind of earned it, especially some of Wally's new ones (not that I'm pro Death Penalty either, but it seemed like he was in a different state of mind then) and it built into his eventual rivalry with Hunter.

I was just referencing the Hal story where he's bombing terrorist camps and how overly hard Johns wrote him as this arrogant "alpha male" guy. Johns also wrote Wally and Ralph as making fun of a gay character's crush on Hal, which I also add to my personal "Johns writes Hal and Wally as dicks" file. Also, Hal blowing that Sinestro Corps guys head off casually is such a far cry from the Hal Jordan that told Kyle, "A real hero doesn't kill. I've never even thought about it" in Emerald Knights.

Also, Barry telling Wally that he covered for the JLA mindwiping villains was a "habit" for him as a policeman because of the blue wall is VERY gross to read.

I always viewed it more as being confident and sure of oneself than outright arrogant, but that's just me. Johns' Hal could get pretty pensive and serious when appropriate.

Where was the moment they made fun of a gay characters' crush?

Even Hal fans would point out that moment in the New 52 run was OOC, especially since he was resistant to GL's being allowed to kill during the Sinestro Corps. War.

(Identity Crisis was gross in general).

[Refrax5]

Granted, The Rogues by that point had kind of earned it, especially some of Wally's new ones (not that I'm pro Death Penalty either, but it seemed like he was in a different state of mind then) and it built into his eventual rivalry with Hunter.

I always viewed it more as being confident and sure of oneself than outright arrogant, but that's just me. Johns' Hal could get pretty pensive and serious when appropriate.

Where was the moment they made fun of a gay characters' crush?

Even Hal fans would point out that moment in the New 52 run was OOC, especially since he was resistant to GL's being allowed to kill during the Sinestro Corps. War.

(Identity Crisis was gross in general).

He still went on a whole thing of bombing terrorist camps and complained about the military being put under the microscope for how they treat enemies they take prisoner. He also retconned Hal hitting the road when Carol rejected him to him rejecting Carol because he couldn't commit because he was such a ladies man. It was just stupid stuff like that.

Hal talked about how Tazmanian Devil had a thing for him back in the day and Wally and Ralph never let him hear the end of it, etc. Johns is a BIG fan of writing his characters as vaguely right wing military/cop stereotypes.

Oh, the thing about Taz and Hal's "military torture apologist" stuff was in Wanted: Hal Jordan.