Wally West: The Flash Appreciation 2022

[BohemiaDrinker]

According to interviews Morrison and Ethan Van Sciver were the ones who pushed for Barry to be resurrected at the time. Probably Johns too. Surprisingly, DiDio was the one who was skeptical.

Yeah, that was not the case. Morrison wanted Barry in Final Crisis, because he believed it was gonna lead to a reboot. There's a bit of bad blood between them and DC at the time because of Countdown, even. EVS, OTOH, overestimated his importance (something he did a lot). It is true that he and Johns brainsrormed most of the concepts for it, but that was when the series was already greenlit. Bart's FMA title, although hemorr*****g readers fast, was canceled with numbers above the average Flash sales. Waid's return back then was conditioned to other stuff, and he actually quit that book before the first issue even saw print due to that other stuff falling trough.

Wasn't the original idea that Barry would had been the Flash after Infinite Crisis, instead of Bart?

According to DiDio yes, the original plan was bringing Barry back in IC, but they decided at last minute that it was still too soon and held it until Final Crisis. Bart was always meant to be a placeholder.

Yeah, not only Bart was supposed to be a placeholder, he initially was to be there when Barry returned. At some point during Infinite Crisis they realized a Wally to Barry transition would be a hard sell, that's where Bart enters. It was probably a last minute call as well, as indicated by him wearing Barry's costume. There's a lot of repurposed art on that time period.

I think DiDio may have been lying there, maybe to hype up Flash Rebirth or because he wanted the outrage to be directed at him instead of Johns/EVS (DiDio often took the blame for other people's decisions).

Again, EVS may actually believe that, but considering everything that was said and done during that time by all the people involved, there's just no way that's the case. EVS may have championed Barry's return, but he didn't - and didn't have to - soften Didio to do it. Didio did use to direct heat at himself, yes, but there's a trick to knowing when an idea was his or not: you just have to see how hard he defends it. Now Johns wasn't really as invested into it as people believed: prof of that is how quick he was to jump ship.

At the end of the day, in this particular situation, Didio is indeed the more reliable narrator, even if that DC column is mostly PR.

[Rend20]

According to interviews Morrison and Ethan Van Sciver were the ones who pushed for Barry to be resurrected at the time.

Morrison mentioned their initial plan for Final Crisis was that Barry would have been from an alternate earth and Didio/Johns convinced them to simply bring Barry back from the dead. Morrison has also stated a preference for writing Wally over Barry as well, not that it means much of anything.

And Van Sciver's take on events doesn't really add up. Prior to Wally's run getting canceled, John's had the book as the third best selling DC solo and consistently in the top 30-ish comics sold over the last year. The book didn't start struggling until after they were already committed to bringing Barry back which was a big reason why Bart's run, and Wally's after, was handled so poorly.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I would always argue Barry did get done kind of dirty.

But that's not even something to argue about : the sabotage Barry suffered in the 80s is pretty well documented. We know of Wolfman reservations, the backdoor he left for the characters return, and we have several Carry Bates interviews about how TPTB of the time were irreductible about Barry's death in COIE, about how "The Trial of the Flash" was stretched because Bates didn't see the point in starting a new story for a doomed character at the same time he made the franchise a little grittier to see if that would change their minds. We know of the pitch Wolfman did for a post Crisis Barry series as well as several pitches for the franchise total reinvention, the one who got farther even being repurposed into a side character in NTT.

However, none of that had anything to do with Wally (originally to be wiped out from history as well). It was in Bill Loebs and then Waid's run that Barry actually gained his Patron Saint status instead of being totally forgotten, as I understand was the original plan.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Was Williamson' run that advertised?

Not really. It was mildly sabotaged as well. Naturally, in this thread, people are gonna be a little iffed that DC isn't making a bigger deal of Wally's return to prominence. Which I get, but also don't mind much. As long as the character is himself and the book remains this good and with a reasonable amount of autonomy, I'm happy.

[Maxi]

Yeah, that was not the case. Morrison wanted Barry in Final Crisis, because he believed it was gonna lead to a reboot. There's a bit of bad blood between them and DC at the time because of Countdown, even. EVS, OTOH, overestimated his importance (something he did a lot). It is true that he and Johns brainsrormed most of the concepts for it, but that was when the series was already greenlit. Bart's FMA title, although hemorr*****g readers fast, was canceled with numbers above the average Flash sales. Waid's return back then was conditioned to other stuff, and he actually quit that book before the first issue even saw print due to that other stuff falling trough.





Yeah, not only Bart was supposed to be a placeholder, he initially was to be there when Barry returned. At some point during Infinite Crisis they realized a Wally to Barry transition would be a hard sell, that's where Bart enters. It was probably a last minute call as well, as indicated by him wearing Barry's costume. There's a lot of repurposed art on that time period.



Again, EVS may actually believe that, but considering everything that was said and done during that time by all the people involved, there's just no way that's the case. EVS may have championed Barry's return, but he didn't - and didn't have to - soften Didio to do it. Didio did use to direct heat at himself, yes, but there's a trick to knowing when an idea was his or not: you just have to see how hard he defends it. Now Johns wasn't really as invested into it as people believed: prof of that is how quick he was to jump ship.

At the end of the day, in this particular situation, Didio is indeed the more reliable narrator, even if that DC column is mostly PR.

I mean, I do believe Johns wanted Barry back, but he wasn't ill intentioned. He never usually is. His desire always comes from a genuine wish to revitalize characters people think are useless or outdated. He wanted to expand the Flash universe like he did with GL and show Barry wasn't just a product of a bygone era. Thing is, you can see he just wasn't as invested as his was with his GL work. Whereas his Hal run was inspired, with Barry you can see he was just kind of going by the motions.

DiDio has explicitly talked repeated times about his dislike for Wally.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I mean, I do believe Johns wanted Barry back, but he wasn't ill intentioned.

Maybe not. I still remembered his canceled Wally back ups, add well as Bart's book with Sterling Gates. Maybe that lack of freedom, along with the repurposing of Flashpoint from top-down, were the factors that made him want to jump ship. Still, what Flash:Rebirth did W with the franchise mythology, and the way the characters were portrayed under his pen right after are just inexcusable. And that's on him alone (Maybe with a little hint of EVS here and there).

[Drako]

Maybe not. I still remembered his canceled Wally back ups, add well as Bart's book with Sterling Gates. Maybe that lack of freedom, along with the repurposing of Flashpoint from top-down, were the factors that made him want to jump ship. Still, what Flash:Rebirth did W with the franchise mythology, and the way the characters were portrayed under his pen right after are just inexcusable. And that's on him alone (Maybe with a little hint of EVS here and there).

Oh, i still remember the empty promises that "Wally would still be around" and thoses back-up stories with him, in a era of DC where almost every book had one. That went nowhere. He even said that in one comic con, if i'm not mistaken.

And then they vetoed him on James Robinson JLA and he could only allowed to appear in some random issues of Titans, that was at the time a dying book without Nightwing, and in the Magog book of all places.

[married guy]

I would always argue Barry did get done kind of dirty. It's a sacred cow now, but Barry was dragged through the mud through the past few years of his title, going through utter misery only to finally be reunited with Iris and have a happy ending. Then, a month later, it's ripped away and he's tortured before dying an agonizing death while screaming for help. When I first got into Flash comics, I only knew Barry from the TV show and was horrified to learn that's what happened to him. It was a very ugly way for that character to go. Even Marv Wolfman was against it. It's been built up into this unassailable story in retrospect, but it was pretty awful.

No, you're absolutely right. Barry was REALLY done dirty. (I'd argue Wally has been done dirtier but I digress...)
The last year of his title was him on trial for murder.
The year before that he was dealing with the murder of his wife.
Although it was great Infantino was back on art duties, the stories weren't memorable at all.
They finally gave him his face back, reunited him with Iris and had them walk off into the sunset, only to kill him in Crisis.
Although Perez' image of a deteriorating Barry appearing randomly across the DCU screaming for help was memorable, it was a rough way for a character to go.
Especially the one who rang in the Silver Age of comics.
On the plus side, I did get my favourite version of the Flash when Wally took over the mantle.
But it was a rough start.
Wolfman's back door strategy was actually pretty cool and would've made for some great stories, but we wouldn't have gotten Wally as the Flash if DC went that option.
Swings and roundabouts.

[Mantis-Ray]

Its arguably that DC not making a bigger deal of Adams run is a good thing cause that means Adams can avoid the issues of editorial interference that tends to plague other runs

They prolly would have made One Minute War an entire event comics instead of a story arc set within the Flash ongoing

[married guy]

Not really. It was mildly sabotaged as well. Naturally, in this thread, people are gonna be a little iffed that DC isn't making a bigger deal of Wally's return to prominence. Which I get, but also don't mind much. As long as the character is himself and the book remains this good and with a reasonable amount of autonomy, I'm happy.

This!
The better a character sells, the more involved editors and non-creatives get involved. It always ends in the golden goose being cooked!

[Refrax5]

No, you're absolutely right. Barry was REALLY done dirty. (I'd argue Wally has been done dirtier but I digress...)
The last year of his title was him on trial for murder.
The year before that he was dealing with the murder of his wife.
Although it was great Infantino was back on art duties, the stories weren't memorable at all.
They finally gave him his face back, reunited him with Iris and had them walk off into the sunset, only to kill him in Crisis.
Although Perez' image of a deteriorating Barry appearing randomly across the DCU screaming for help was memorable, it was a rough way for a character to go.
Especially the one who rang in the Silver Age of comics.
On the plus side, I did get my favourite version of the Flash when Wally took over the mantle.
But it was a rough start.
Wolfman's back door strategy was actually pretty cool and would've made for some great stories, but we wouldn't have gotten Wally as the Flash if DC went that option.
Swings and roundabouts.

Yeah, Wally ended up growing into a very dynamic and fun character over the years (which is why he's stood the test of time in a way most legacy characters do not), so my disdain for Barry's death doesn't mean I don't love Wally. It's always a weird situation, because I love all of the Flashes and wish DC could find a way for all of them to coexist successfully. The current series is a lot of fun, though, so I wouldn't mess with that.

I also really miss Bart. He doesn't get enough love.

[Drako]

Bart will be part of the One-minute war arc.

[godisawesome]

I mean, I do believe Johns wanted Barry back, but he wasn't ill intentioned. He never usually is. His desire always comes from a genuine wish to revitalize characters people think are useless or outdated. He wanted to expand the Flash universe like he did with GL and show Barry wasn't just a product of a bygone era. Thing is, you can see he just wasn't as invested as his was with his GL work. Whereas his Hal run was inspired, with Barry you can see he was just kind of going by the motions.

DiDio has explicitly talked repeated times about his dislike for Wally.

I think the best way to describe Johns’s interest in Barry compared to Hal was that Johns just wasn’t nearly as enthusiastic about Barry, and that even if he wanted to “prove” Barry wasn’t a product of a bygone era… he definetly saw Barry as the product of a bygone era, considering how much his ideas hinged on radically changing Barry’s origin and then making the easy kind of fix he would have done at any other time verboten with Flashpoint.

I think you can even tell that Johns had more enthusiasm about Wally than he did Barry, which likely also caused problems for the Flash franchise - I wouldn’t be shocked if Johns felt like there wasn’t much use in writing a full Flash family if he couldn’t use Wally (because Didio is likely behind banishing Wally in the New 52), and thus rarely did much besides write him as en ensemble character.

I even think Johns liked writing Thawne more, all things considered.

[Hol]

Yeah, that was not the case. Morrison wanted Barry in Final Crisis, because he believed it was gonna lead to a reboot. There's a bit of bad blood between them and DC at the time because of Countdown, even. EVS, OTOH, overestimated his importance (something he did a lot). It is true that he and Johns brainsrormed most of the concepts for it, but that was when the series was already greenlit. Bart's FMA title, although hemorr*****g readers fast, was canceled with numbers above the average Flash sales. Waid's return back then was conditioned to other stuff, and he actually quit that book before the first issue even saw print due to that other stuff falling trough.





Yeah, not only Bart was supposed to be a placeholder, he initially was to be there when Barry returned. At some point during Infinite Crisis they realized a Wally to Barry transition would be a hard sell, that's where Bart enters. It was probably a last minute call as well, as indicated by him wearing Barry's costume. There's a lot of repurposed art on that time period.



Again, EVS may actually believe that, but considering everything that was said and done during that time by all the people involved, there's just no way that's the case. EVS may have championed Barry's return, but he didn't - and didn't have to - soften Didio to do it. Didio did use to direct heat at himself, yes, but there's a trick to knowing when an idea was his or not: you just have to see how hard he defends it. Now Johns wasn't really as invested into it as people believed: prof of that is how quick he was to jump ship.

At the end of the day, in this particular situation, Didio is indeed the more reliable narrator, even if that DC column is mostly PR.

I am not saying you are wrong as basically we are all taking words from different parties and their perceptions of events over the years but I have never believed it was Dan's idea to bring back Barry Allen or that BS about him wanting to do so as soon as he got to DC.

I remember being there reading interviews all the time from 2003 to 2009. And all the times people asked Dan at cons or other interviews about bringing Barry back... he was just as dismissive or jerky to them as he would be to Wally fans years later. In one interview he even said "Barry is dead, get over it"....which drove people crazy online. I remember EVS back on the comic bloc forums even talking about how he and Geoff had to convince Dan. And that was way before that Flash Rebirth blurb in back of all the books. I know there isn't any way to prove it either way but I do not buy it was Dan's idea for a second. I think he was talked into it and the idea that it may be as successful as GL Rebirth was a big selling point to him and he wanted to take credit for it by publishing that BS in all the books. Thats just my .02.

In addition Morrison was originally going to use an alternate reality version of Barry Allen in Final Crisis but then Geoff and Dan asked him to use the "real" Barry because they were planning his return.

I do not think anything said by anyone else (Dan included) really has any more weight than what EVS said.

[Hol]

I think the best way to describe Johns’s interest in Barry compared to Hal was that Johns just wasn’t nearly as enthusiastic about Barry, and that even if he wanted to “prove” Barry wasn’t a product of a bygone era… he definetly saw Barry as the product of a bygone era, considering how much his ideas hinged on radically changing Barry’s origin and then making the easy kind of fix he would have done at any other time verboten with Flashpoint.

I think you can even tell that Johns had more enthusiasm about Wally than he did Barry, which likely also caused problems for the Flash franchise - I wouldn’t be shocked if Johns felt like there wasn’t much use in writing a full Flash family if he couldn’t use Wally (because Didio is likely behind banishing Wally in the New 52), and thus rarely did much besides write him as en ensemble character.

I even think Johns liked writing Thawne more, all things considered.

I personally think Johns was excited at first but the less than stellar reviews of Flash Rebirth (especially in comparison to GL Rebirth) soured him to staying on the book.