Loki Appreciation 2022

[Raye]

I never know what to say in this first post. A big flowery intro seems pointless to me, we all know why we're here, so let's get on with it.

Here's some of the posts from the final page of the last version of this thread, to help get things moving again. TLDR, we were adjusting speulation in light of recent events in Thor, to speculate that maybe Loki would end up as king, cus Thor is making a mess of things, and someone needs to fix it if he is unwilling or unable to get his act together. The two main candidates to usurp Thor right now being Loki, in part due to a strange foreshadowing line in Valkyries, and the fact that Cates has already been using Loki to basically do Thor's job and clean up his messes for him, when Thor was unwilling or unable to. And Angela flatly threatened a coup right to Thor's face if Thor didn't get his act together a few issues ago, and she does technically have the best claim, if we go by usual rules of succession, she was the first born legitimate child of Odin and Freyja.

What happened to Sigyn?

She just.... stopped appearing one day. There was no explanation, she just stopped appearing sometime in the 80s. I doubt her final appearance was actually intended to be her final appearance. She's appeared a few times since, but only in flashbacks to the past.

Maybe I'm a little jaded with the champion role giving Loki significant panel time because of the last time he lifted the hammer. Mind you it was due to a spell forcing characters to behave in a specific way and not at all organically which is why Axis was shortlived and not even memorable. I do find Cates build up intriguing but I want a lot more than the drips and drabs we've been getting going as far back as Aaron. At the end of the day, I just want more Loki in whatever shape or form.

Yeah I think the inversion and this are very different things, so i really would have expected Loki to get a lot of panel time, maybe not in the Thor title, but relauncch JIM or give him a solo, sure. either way I would like an anniversary relaunch of JIM with Loki. Maybe it could spin out of the Hulk thing? I still think that while Thor can fight Hulk all he likes, i would like to see a conversation between Loki and Banner even more. (even tho right now Hulk and Banner are the same, but... you know what i mean)

IDK if this is a local or an international edition, but the 2022 Avengers wall calendar features Loki (at last!) , and I'm on cloud nine. Season's greetings everyone!

Nice! is that MCU or comics?

Also, preview for Thor 20:

https://www.cbr.com/marvel-kills-thor-eitri/

Loki is not in it, but it has a blatant callback to issue 1, where Thor's threats of 'peace, or else' have.... gone poorly. but the scene in issue 1 was 2 pages long, while this has been condensed to 1 page, so Jotunheim was one of the panels to get cut. But, relevant to the speculation, the panel showing Heven now shows Angela at the head of an army. So I think her threats of a coup are about to come to pass. But even if she succeeds, I have doubts it will last. I've said it before, but personally, I don't think she would do a much better job, no matter how upset she is at the mess Thor is making of things. Her temperament is just all wrong for it, too harsh, too unyielding, too aggressive, not to mention she spent most of her life with her only knowledge of Asgard being wildly distorted stories that painted them all as evil. I think Loki would be a better fit, now that he's turned face, more or less, but looks like we may have to deal with Angela first. But we also see the denizens of Muspelheim revolting, so it may just be an all out revolt across the realms.

[rpmaluki]

I agree about Angela. Whatever Thor is going through or how badly he's dropping the ball as king, Angela comes across as an even worse option than Thor, who cares that she was born first? I know line of succession in most kingdoms are dependent on first (male) born but there's some where the ruling monarch chooses the successor from the many offsprings they have especially if they are born of different mothers (out of favouritism) and I believe this is what Odin did in choosing Thor. Unfortunately Thor is living up to his potential. Loki is the viable option unless Balder puts his name in the hat, I can't remember if there's anyone else.

[Yoruno]

Thanks for starting the new thread!
As for the calendar, I guess it's based on the Avengers cartoon series... maybe. Loki got September.
298801_5-750x750.jpg

[Raye]

ah, nice! haven't seen that one, but then again, haven't gone looking for calendars. Is that a Hawkeye and Shuri teamup? odd pairing.

I agree about Angela. Whatever Thor is going through or how badly he's dropping the ball as king, Angela comes across as an even worse option than Thor, who cares that she was born first? I know line of succession in most kingdoms are dependent on first (male) born but there's some where the ruling monarch chooses the successor from the many offsprings they have especially if they are born of different mothers (out of favouritism) and I believe this is what Odin did in choosing Thor. Unfortunately Thor is living up to his potential. Loki is the viable option unless Balder puts his name in the hat, I can't remember if there's anyone else.

I mean, looking at history we can see many examples of rulers who were born into the position who were clearly not fit to rule, and they then either became tyrants, (Caligula, among others) or others ruled for them, from behind the scenes, because they were just incapable. (Charles II of Spain) I could see Cates making the argument, which isn't exactly a hot take these days, but still, that rulers need to come by the position based on their qualifications, not their birth, or, in Thor's case, being Odin's favorite, and using both Thor and Angela to demonstrate that. Loki is still within that family, but maybe the story could involve him proving he's the better choice, somehow. Like I don't think Asgard is ready to become a democracy right now, but that could be a sort of halfway point. Not saying Loki is the perfect choice, but given the other choices... like I do think Balder, Sif, or maybe Volstagg could do well, but they've not really been put forward as candidates. And Sif is doing her whole thing with the Bifrost, Balder's king of the Norns, so while that's out of sight for the most part, it is important. (also, if he was made king of Asgard again, you know he just gonna die again.) So they have the problem as well, where you'd have to get someone to take over their current duties, same as with Loki and Jotunheim. Volstagg has no other role, and has been acting as a sort of assistant to Thor, but it just doesn't feel like he's a serious contender here.

[Frontier]

Happy New Year to Loki and his fans .

[rpmaluki]

But what would be the benefit of Loki adding chaos to an already chaotic situation? It's not going to make things better for anyone. Loki's experience in the past decade has revolved around him seeing the consequences of his terrible actions. He spent all that time trying and failing to break that cycle. I like that he hasn't given up on what he wants for himself if it's making those small gains of not reverting back to his OG self in the face of an ingrained expectation that he'llnever truly change. Right now he is in a better vantage point of seeing the end point of destructive patterns, even under the guise of doing good . He has a different perspective that can help Thor and ultimately help Asgard. The issues here is that HE is not the problem and let's be real, he hasn't been the problem for years. This is the new reality. He hasn't lost the qualities that make him Loki but just because he's not giving in to his baser nature should not mean he's not allowed to grow a bit and go the responsible route for once after decades of blatant failure because of his short comings. Learning from past mistakes is always good for character growth, it means he's not complacent or redundant.

All good characters have progressive or regressive arcs, that is the mark and point of a good story.

[Lambadelta]

I sometimes wonder if it might just be easier for Loki to revert back to his old evil self because if after 7 years or so there are still people questioning his face-turn and not believing in it, including his own fans, then I don’t think there’s any hope whatsoever for Loki. There comes a time where one must just admit defeat. I don't know I think it's just time to accept that no one is going to accept the face-turn ever.

About the latest issue. Well Loki has pretty much been this way ever since Thor (2020) began. He's been a lot more level-headed and I think that's just him taking his duties seriously as king and falling into old habits. plus even when Loki does fall back into old habits for the last 7 years it has always been for the greater good or either his family (namely Thor) or the whole entire universe. So him causing the other realms to go against Thor would completely go against the character that has been set up for the last 7 years or so. I mean if there was any way for a war of realms situation to benefit Loki in protecting the realms then I could understand it but there literally isn't. And I guess some could say he's using this as a ploy to get the throne but Loki has never shown any interest in the throne lately and I don't think he even is interested in being king of Asgard.

The only time that he's maybe shown any type of interest is in The mighty Valkyries when he made a passing comment about being an All-Father.

[Fanto.mx]

I mean, looking at history we can see many examples of rulers who were born into the position who were clearly not fit to rule, and they then either became tyrants, (Caligula, among others) or others ruled for them, from behind the scenes, because they were just incapable. (Charles II of Spain) I could see Cates making the argument, which isn't exactly a hot take these days, but still, that rulers need to come by the position based on their qualifications, not their birth, or, in Thor's case, being Odin's favorite, and using both Thor and Angela to demonstrate that. Loki is still within that family, but maybe the story could involve him proving he's the better choice, somehow. Like I don't think Asgard is ready to become a democracy right now, but that could be a sort of halfway point. Not saying Loki is the perfect choice, but given the other choices... like I do think Balder, Sif, or maybe Volstagg could do well, but they've not really been put forward as candidates. And Sif is doing her whole thing with the Bifrost, Balder's king of the Norns, so while that's out of sight for the most part, it is important. (also, if he was made king of Asgard again, you know he just gonna die again.) So they have the problem as well, where you'd have to get someone to take over their current duties, same as with Loki and Jotunheim. Volstagg has no other role, and has been acting as a sort of assistant to Thor, but it just doesn't feel like he's a serious contender here.

Sif, IMO, would be the very best hold-down-the-fort choice. And it makes a fair bit of sense to have the person who is near omniscient but not omnipotent to be in charge, though then we may have a Cassandra situation where people won't do what needs to be done, either because they aren't willing to take her word or are invested in the stuff she is trying to change or prevent. Could be a really interesting story, but as pointed out, she has no real claim as long as Asgard is a hereditary monarchy. We'd need Thor to give up power, which he hasn't shown he is at all willing to even consider, let alone do, AND dismantle the system that gave him the power in the first place and that has been in place for well over a million years. Historically, that has happened only when there's a soft coup with a very weakened leader and the people taking over says the Emperor can still dress like an emperor and have very nice things, but don't get confused: this is the new government.

The reason I'm predicting Angela will take the throne, despite her extreme shortcomings and the fact that she essentially has all the problems Thor has PLUS is an outsider, is because at this point, the only way Thor doesn't remain is for the throne to be taken. If Angela ends up on the throne, I foresee her becoming a big bad and there having to be what amounts to an Asgardian civil war. I think that's entirely possible with what we have so far, if not likely, given last issue, it's just a matter of what the last straw is, whether Angela attempts to put limits on her own power, and how long it takes her to grow impatient with actually ruling.

That's really one of the big problems, as I see it, with almost all of the options. Even Loki is too impatient to be a good ruler. He would try longer than Angela or Thor for sure, but eventually he would take a short cut, and he works in technicalities a lot, which would erode support at best and lead to a complete system collapse at worst.

The other big problem is that the only limit on Loki and Thor on the throne is their need to be loved, and Angela (and Blake) don't even have that limit.

[OBrianTallent]

I really miss evil, bastard Loki...but I have to say I am also loving this morally ambiguous but conflicted Loki.

[Raye]

I'm actually not sure if keeping it in the family is that big a concern any more, honestly. I mean Loki is only in the family by technicality, and he's in the running. It's just that most of the candidates put forth in the story so far are in the family, because that does give them a certain level of access and legitimacy, but... But for Sif, dunno, while I do think she would be a good queen, she would, just like Thor, have to give up her current duties. Both roles require too much attention for one, or both, to not suffer by trying to do both at once.

And like, there will be no perfect candidate. There never is, never will be. Everyone is flawed. Also, as i said towards the end of the last version of this thread, the point may be to have a flawed ruler, otherwise it's boring. We don't actually want to read about an Asgard that's running flawlessly. So nitpicking over more minor flaws is a bit irrelevant, imo. As long as they aren't SO bad that the kingdom comes crumbling down, it's fine. Unfortunately, it appears to be the case with Thor that things are in danger of crumbling down, which is why a replacement may be necessary. He's not just imperfect, he's completely neglecting vital aspects of his duties, to the point where things really are in danger of collapsing. Some of the bad things that have happened have been due to bad luck, I know. But how he's responded to the bad luck events,going off to deal with things in person, rather than delegating, leaves Asgard increasingly vulnerable, and duties he should have been doing rather than going off gallivanting around the galaxy, such as the magic wards, or dealing with the refugees, are going unaddressed, which are causing ever expanding cracks in the foundations. Angela I think would not address those problems, or would address them too harshly. I think Loki would at least do what Thor is neglecting to. Is he going to be flawed? Sure, but not flawed in a way that I think it would cause collapse. I also think that if he did take a shortcut and it went pear shaped, he's probably be able to correct it, at least. Or have Thor to help there. I mean that's what the whole warrior/champion role is, basically, troubleshooting problems threatening Asgard. And sometimes those problems are caused by the ruler. It's just that with Thor trying to do both at once, that dynamic can't really work. It's the same problem it's always been, he can't do both at once. Both roles suffer when you try to do that. It's just that before, we were saying he has to give up his old role to be a good king, but now it's that he may have to give up being king to be a good champion.

but yeah, though Thor seems completely disinterested in doing what needs to be done, he seems to love having the kind of authority being all-father comes with. He's thrown his weight around, threatening people with the power that comes with the throne, more than once. Loki, Tony, Sif, Bill... hell, even Odin. He expects people to respect the position, even though he himself hasn't earned that respect. so yeah, while he is apparently disinterested in doing the job, it may be that it has to be taken from him.

[Fanto.mx]

I'm actually not sure if keeping it in the family is that big a concern any more, honestly. I mean Loki is only in the family by technicality, and he's in the running. It's just that most of the candidates put forth in the story so far are in the family, because that does give them a certain level of access and legitimacy, but... But for Sif, dunno, while I do think she would be a good queen, she would, just like Thor, have to give up her current duties. Both roles require too much attention for one, or both, to not suffer by trying to do both at once.

That's a good point. My idea of Sif being good in the position was based on her continuing to have the Seeing Powers, but those come with a responsibility that may be incompatible with actually ruling things. For example, it would be really easy for her to turn a blind eye to Asgard because she's watching the rest of the realms. While that would be an interesting story, it also basically produces the same problems the Throne currently has.

I do think that the hereditary throne is going to collapse and be done away with in Cates's run, mostly due to the "Last King of Asgard" prophecy from the Book of Kings.

And like, there will be no perfect candidate. There never is, never will be. Everyone is flawed. Also, as i said towards the end of the last version of this thread, the point may be to have a flawed ruler, otherwise it's boring. We don't actually want to read about an Asgard that's running flawlessly. So nitpicking over more minor flaws is a bit irrelevant, imo. As long as they aren't SO bad that the kingdom comes crumbling down, it's fine. Unfortunately, it appears to be the case with Thor that things are in danger of crumbling down, which is why a replacement may be necessary. He's not just imperfect, he's completely neglecting vital aspects of his duties, to the point where things really are in danger of collapsing. Some of the bad things that have happened have been due to bad luck, I know. But how he's responded to the bad luck events,going off to deal with things in person, rather than delegating, leaves Asgard increasingly vulnerable, and duties he should have been doing rather than going off gallivanting around the galaxy, such as the magic wards, or dealing with the refugees, are going unaddressed, which are causing ever expanding cracks in the foundations. Angela I think would not address those problems, or would address them too harshly. I think Loki would at least do what Thor is neglecting to. Is he going to be flawed? Sure, but not flawed in a way that I think it would cause collapse. I also think that if he did take a shortcut and it went pear shaped, he's probably be able to correct it, at least. Or have Thor to help there. I mean that's what the whole warrior/champion role is, basically, troubleshooting problems threatening Asgard. And sometimes those problems are caused by the ruler. It's just that with Thor trying to do both at once, that dynamic can't really work. It's the same problem it's always been, he can't do both at once. Both roles suffer when you try to do that. It's just that before, we were saying he has to give up his old role to be a good king, but now it's that he may have to give up being king to be a good champion.

Agreed. SOMEONE has to give up their other roles to be a decent ruler (or champion, or "sharpener", etc., etc.). Which, IMO, actually points to Sif being key to all these shenanigans, since she just did that, letting go of her warrior role in order to be The Seer. In contrast, Thor and Loki are holding onto their old roles while trying (or avoiding) their new roles, and Frigga and Odin are completely lost in the woods after giving up their previous roles.

but yeah, though Thor seems completely disinterested in doing what needs to be done, he seems to love having the kind of authority being all-father comes with. He's thrown his weight around, threatening people with the power that comes with the throne, more than once. Loki, Tony, Sif, Bill... hell, even Odin. He expects people to respect the position, even though he himself hasn't earned that respect. so yeah, while he is apparently disinterested in doing the job, it may be that it has to be taken from him.

I don't know if it's the authority as much as the power. Every time he throws his weight around, it comes with a threat of violence, less "you'll be in trouble because I am the king" and more "don't talk back or I will slap you into next week." Obviously, that's not healthy, especially in a situation where he 1. is neglecting his duties, and 2. is literally incapable and/or ignorant of a lot of his duties.

I've been thinking and just about all the things I think may be coming are due to lingering threads and examples of Chekhov's Gun. The line between them is pretty squishy:
Guns:
1. Angela has a claim to the throne.
2. The Book of Kings says Thor is the last.
3. The whole "Golden God" thing.
4. Galactus is dead.
5. Mjolnir is...sentient?
6. Loki keeps lifting Mjolnir.
7. Magic is broken. A little unclear if it's broken broken or just very poorly maintained by Thor.

Threads:
1. Blake is imprisoned and seems to retain very bad connections to Thor's rights, role, and power.
2. Odin and Frigga are basically feral.
3. Other Thors (Bill, Throg) are better at being "Thor" than Thor.
4. The whole Norns/Fates thread.

[Riimi]

I guess I've kind of been looking at the family and not any further. I do think Volstagg would make a great ruler.

Loki was in Thor today.

spoilers:

I like how he was able to just teleport Thor and Odin to Jotunheim, nbd. The current and past Allfather and he was just like, I wanna talk to you right now. Thor has at least been trying to fix things, even if he's going about them the wrong way, but Odin straight up dismisses the prophecy (you'd think he'd know better, but....). Loki, on the other hand, has done his best to do research -- although we'll see how much more he's able to help, since Thor has to ultimately be the one to set things right (it's his book, after all.) Throg returns, alive, so it seems like Loki's refusal didn't result in his demise. I do wonder if Loki might have been more successful, although Throg did find Mjolnir. Thor calls out Odin for all the enchantments failing, and he definitely has a point: although it's Thor's job now, Odin should have taught him what to do. ETA: I also like how Loki's been the one keeping the other realms from attacking (for now). Though it's an offhanded mention, it's impressive in and of itself, and doubly so given that he managed to make the time to scour the universe for the prophecy regarding the god of hammers. It's also another reminder that Loki's on Thor's side.

end of spoilers

Additional Edits: Wow, we totally posted at the same time! I think Thor's going to break the prophecy, although what that means for the throne of Asgard remains to be seen. There's a part of me that's like, what if Thor remains King and keeps Mjolnir, but I think the narrative doesn't support that, since he's done such a bad job of being king (not to mention how the roles have been implied to work).