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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riimi View Post
    I pretty much agree about the roles. To clarify, my main issue with Loki re: Blake wasn't him declaring the latter the god of lies, it was the whole snake dripping poison in his eyes. I think it was wrong when Odin did it and I think it's wrong now.
    Yeah, but I still don't think one bad thing equals full regression, and also a couple things temper it for me. One, I think the specific scenario was more for readers than in story purposes. I think Cates wanted it to be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR which role Blake was being slotted into, didn't want to leave it up for interpretation and guessing, especially since a lot of readers, if they are jumping on for Cates run, or haven't read the Loki stuff, or just aren't reading into the subtext, just aren't really grasping the roles thing, so he has been getting more and more blatant with it, pointing out what is going on explicitly. So Cates did everything he could to get that across, by recreating Loki's punishment, and maybe didn't consider the ramifications as far as Loki went as much as he should have. So I am thinking it is not necessarily meant to be super damaging to Loki's character. Or, maybe he did, and this was a way of telling us that Loki was simultaneously stepping into Odin's role. Prior to this scene, Loki hadn't done the 'he's doing Thor's job for him' thing, this was the first real instance of that, so... It wasn't entirely clear at the time, but now that we are getting more instances of Loki doing Thor's job, and Thor showing no real signs of learning to do the King thing properly... It may be that this was the moment Loki stepped into his role as well. Though we will need further clarification of that, see how the King and Champion roles get separated, it can still go a few ways.

    But also, the more speculative reason... like, of all the characters, I think Loki is the most aware of the roles, the shape of the story, and the repeating story beats. After all he's been through since JIM, plus just his knowledge and conscious use of narrative tropes, there's no way he hasn't picked up on all this, even if, to most other characters, it's not something they are conscious of. In which case, he knows damn well Blake is supposed to escape. He's lived this role, he knows half of it is becoming an escape artist. But he has to want to escape for that to happen. If Loki had just sealed him away in a relatively comfortable prison, he may just.... be content to sit there take his punishment. Drip some venom in his face, and he will want to get the hell out of there. And he'll be pissed when he does. Which in a way is bad, yeah, because it means he will lash out in retaliation, but that's something that needs to happen to keep the story going. So, just saying, if Loki is aware of the shape of the story, he may just be helping to ensure it goes the way it is supposed to. We have seen him in the past acting to ensure the story goes the way it is supposed to. But that's more like, headcanon type stuff.


    I'm inclined to agree here. Thor was asking Loki to do something that would tie him to his old role. Although I agree that Thor hasn't been delegating enough. (In fact, I think he's been shown in a poorer light than Loki in Cates' run, it just fits into what people are used to seeing him do, so they don't see that it's 'wrong'.)

    Right now I'm inclined to believe he's a good candidate for King, but I'm willing to entertain the notion that I'm wrong
    first, agree Thor's been shown in a far worse light, even if a lot of readers aren't getting it. Either because they are just accustomed to him being the hero and just assume anything he does is right, or there are also a subset of fans that view what are supposed to be toxic behaviours as admirable. I mean, he destroyed entire planets.

    But just to clarify (to both of you) I used the term 'Inciting Incident' rather than 'Call' intentionally for most of it, because while all calls to adventure are also inciting incidents, not all inciting incidents are calls to adventure. A Call is a specific type of inciting incident, that begins the Hero's Journey specifically. But Galactus was a Call, and the Black Winter was a Hero's Journey that was all dark and twisted, it followed all the beats, it was pretty textbook, except in the fact that it had terrible results. My thought is that the new 'Hero' would have faced the same scenarios, but dealt with them in a different way, leading to a better result. But we will likely never see the specifics of that.

    So yeah, i used Call there intentionally, and I don't think it was a call to returning to villainy. Now, yes, I know that Thor was looking for Loki to be a spy for him, and that is part of why Loki refused, but that doesn't mean it can't also be a refused call. Loki could have told Thor he would help him, but not by using his old methods. He could have just straight up agreed, but once things got going, events took him in a different direction than what he or Thor thought, (it doesn't look like any spying was actually used by Throg, not like Mjolnir made it's actions a secret) etc. I mean, the Call isn't necessarily outlining exactly what the hero will do, it's just something that puts them on the Hero's Journey path, even if that's not exactly what they were expecting would happen. So it is still coming across as a refused call to me, though yeah, as with the King thing above, it depends on how future events pans out.

    We have a few main possibilities here, Loki is made Champion while Thor remains King. Loki is made King while Thor continues to be champion. Or we could get some much more complicated scenario with a more complex changing of roles, like Angela is Queen, while Thor is War, and Loki Champion, or... well, lots of possibilities. A lot of this also depends on who dies, because after that, their role will be up for grabs as well. But I think the ones with the most foreshadowing are the first 2. I do think Loki was the INTENDED champion by fate, I mean we had that scene of Loki lifting Mjolnir and then Thor literally yanking it from his grasp, which i think is basically what has been going on during Black Winter and a bit after. But now that things are all mucked up, it could go lots of ways to fix things.
    Last edited by Raye; 01-18-2022 at 12:56 PM.

  2. #77
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    So, I've changed my mind a bit. I think (or at least hope) that Cates is going to use this as an opportunity to get rid of the AllPower, Odin Force, what have you. Shoutout to Fanto Mx, who made the point about the prophecy mentioning the last King of Asgard. I wasn't able to make sense of that at first because I was too focused on Loki possibly becoming King, and I was expecting them to break the prophecy. However, one of the Thor solicits implies a subversion instead. Now, someone has to lead Asgard after the dust settles, so I think it's more likely that the prophecy is speaking to the traditional role. Specifically, I think Cates is going with the ruler having been defined by their possession of the All Power.

    Aside from the prophecy, the main argument in favor of this is Doylist in nature: much like we've discussed with regards to Loki being the God of Stories, the All Power is too impactful, which is imo the primary reason why the AllFather has been portrayed as a dick in modern comics. Basically, if the All Father is supportive, it's too easy for them to intercede in the Champion's job, negating the Champions agency. The other option for a "good" ruler is for them to be asleep after having used their power; at this point, they are no longer ruling Asgard and have no impact on the narrative. Simonson was able to balance between these extremes, but it's difficult to do well -- he also wrote in a different era, primarily before deconstruction became popular. Anyways, since it's extremely difficult to write the ruler as helpful, the only other option to allow the All Father to remain a supporting character instead of an antagonist is to make them incompetent...which we've also kind of seen happen with Odin, imo. However, making a supporting character incompetent is a good way to make fans hate them, especially when they occupy a position of authority.

    So, your remaining choice (assuming the character is forced to exist under these parameters) is to make them an antagonist. Making the ruler evil is an option (and has been done -- Cul) but ultimately leads to the need to overthrow them, which puts the writer back at square one. The equilibrium position, as far as I can tell, is to make the character a minor antagonist: i.e., a huge dick. At least you're able to milk this for some drama.

    Making the ruler a lot less powerful by taking away the All Power actually allows them to be more helpful within the narrative since they can no longer snap their fingers to get rid of the Champion's problems. It also imposes a future threat upon Asgard -- how are they going to defend themselves now? But the thing is, you can actually explore this and make it an interesting narrative.

    On a different note, Raye I believe you are right about Mjolnir being the new Cul.

  3. #78
    Spectacular Member Fanto.mx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riimi View Post
    So, I've changed my mind a bit. I think (or at least hope) that Cates is going to use this as an opportunity to get rid of the AllPower, Odin Force, what have you. Shoutout to Fanto Mx, who made the point about the prophecy mentioning the last King of Asgard. I wasn't able to make sense of that at first because I was too focused on Loki possibly becoming King, and I was expecting them to break the prophecy. However, one of the Thor solicits implies a subversion instead. Now, someone has to lead Asgard after the dust settles, so I think it's more likely that the prophecy is speaking to the traditional role. Specifically, I think Cates is going with the ruler having been defined by their possession of the All Power.
    This is such a clean way to resolve these two threads. And if someone were to take the throne, but Thor was to retain the All-Power, maybe that's how this happens. It would also help him "earn" his place, since it wouldn't be about the throne, it would be about him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riimi View Post
    Aside from the prophecy, the main argument in favor of this is Doylist in nature: much like we've discussed with regards to Loki being the God of Stories, the All Power is too impactful, which is imo the primary reason why the AllFather has been portrayed as a dick in modern comics. Basically, if the All Father is supportive, it's too easy for them to intercede in the Champion's job, negating the Champions agency. The other option for a "good" ruler is for them to be asleep after having used their power; at this point, they are no longer ruling Asgard and have no impact on the narrative. Simonson was able to balance between these extremes, but it's difficult to do well -- he also wrote in a different era, primarily before deconstruction became popular. Anyways, since it's extremely difficult to write the ruler as helpful, the only other option to allow the All Father to remain a supporting character instead of an antagonist is to make them incompetent...which we've also kind of seen happen with Odin, imo. However, making a supporting character incompetent is a good way to make fans hate them, especially when they occupy a position of authority.

    So, your remaining choice (assuming the character is forced to exist under these parameters) is to make them an antagonist. Making the ruler evil is an option (and has been done -- Cul) but ultimately leads to the need to overthrow them, which puts the writer back at square one. The equilibrium position, as far as I can tell, is to make the character a minor antagonist: i.e., a huge dick. At least you're able to milk this for some drama.

    Making the ruler a lot less powerful by taking away the All Power actually allows them to be more helpful within the narrative since they can no longer snap their fingers to get rid of the Champion's problems. It also imposes a future threat upon Asgard -- how are they going to defend themselves now? But the thing is, you can actually explore this and make it an interesting narrative.

    On a different note, Raye I believe you are right about Mjolnir being the new Cul.
    Oh. Huh. We had opposite ideas of how this would play out. Hmm.

    So I was thinking of them as separatable, but your idea seems to be based on the All Power and the throne being one and the same, meaning the end of the all power would be the end of the throne (but not the end of someone leading/ruling Asgard). Interesting how possible both of those feel to me.

  4. #79
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    Yeah as soon as I had that Cul epiphany, it just clicked, i think it fits really well. And Cul was redeemed in the end, so... But preview for next issue (which has an awful lot of story and destiny talk, just saying ) seems to suggest my initial guess was right, and that Mjolnir got corrupted during it's time in the sun. But it's possible both are true, like it just awakened something that had lain dormant, or allowed the doors of the prison to open, or the initial prison was the sun, and Mjolnir is just it's means of escape. My first thought months ago was Mangog infecting Mjolnir, but the preview seems to hint at something else, something that's been lurking there longer. Either way, I do think Odin was involved, he seems to know something about Mjolnir that he hasn't told Thor, but wants to tell him now.

    And Cates has even played with the idea on page of the All Power making Thor too powerful to do interesting stories with, like when he showed up and the Avengers were fighting against that horde of.... things, attacking NY, and Thor just obliterates them with barely a thought. Or the times he has consciously shelved his power to make the fight more fair. And the rest of the story, while interesting, has been portraying Thor as an incompetent king, as he runs off to deal with things in person, and leaving a trail of (inadvertent but still) catastrophes in his wake. These adventures he's run off on have also led him to do bad things, like destroying those planets, coming into conflict with his friends etc. Ironically it is in part because he's trying to NOT be incompetent. I think he wants to be seen as having accomplished something good, and to not be seen as a failure, which is in part motivating him to run off to deal with things in person and do this tough guy act, and it's just making things worse rather than better. Like, I think part of why he killed Galactus is that he got to the end of his quest with the Black Winter, realized he'd done all those terrible things for NOTHING, cus the Black Winter was just gonna leave with Galactus if he had just let things play out. Coming home with Galactus' head as a trophy could make it seem like he had accomplished something out there. something good? debatable. So yeah, too powerful, or incompetent, or antagonist. It may be possible that Thor actually is not supposed to be effective as a ruler, that becoming a massive dick is just part of the role, due to the pressures they have to deal with, and the need to keep the story interesting, but he just can't stand the thought, and things are being mucked up as a result.

    So yeah, the All Power may need to be powered down, split up, or something. I tend to side with Riimi that the All Power and the Throne are basically the same thing. While I do agree that some roles and their associated items/powers can be separated and changed, like I don't think Mjolnir necessarily comes with the Champion role, I think the All-Father IS being king, they are synonymous to me. To me, the All Power is a sort of symbol of office, it's like the king's crown, it's something you get BECAUSE you are the king. I do think you could remove the All Power entirely, or have temporary stand ins that rule without it (like the times Odin has been asleep and someone took up the reins to keep things running) but I don't think you can have someone have the All Power and NOT be the king, it just doesn't make sense to me. And the problem remains, that whoever wields that kind of power is severely restricted in the kinds of stories they can participate in, because so much that you could potentially throw at them would become trivial. You have to make it either non stop massive universe obliterating threats, like the Black Winter, or keep it all inward looking and personal, at which point them having that much power becomes kind of irrelevant to the stories being told. Both can be interesting, but it separates them from the rest of the MU, which is a massive tradeoff. Whoever ends up with that power will have their role in the stories restricted one way or another, so as to not step on the toes of other characters, so it may be that it has to just be powered down. Keep the role, but not the power. Or split the role (and power) up, like they've had triumvirates in Asgard before, so...

    Maybe, Mjolnir will be reforged and the Storm will be removed and it will instead be imbued with the All Power, but weakened? that could explain how Thor still has it afterwards, if it literally becomes imbued with the power of his position and becomes a symbol of office. That could also fit with the 'Mjolnir (or, more accurately, the Storm) is the new Cul' thing, since Cul was freed from his prison and didn't return. Yeah he got taken to Old Asgard temporarily but that didn't really last that long. that way he could also imbue a new weapon for the Champion, (fingers still crossed for Loki) if he still is King, further diluting the power. I think imbuing both Mjolnir and a new weapon for the Champion as symbols of both their roles might work on a few levels. like symbolically, it would be him literally giving some of his power to the Champion to act as his representative, you know? and if it powers down the All Force he retains enough, he could still do his own stories and not have to be made into an ineffective king, or antagonist. And the same can still work in reverse, if it does end up with Loki on the throne.
    Last edited by Raye; 01-24-2022 at 06:28 PM.

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    continuing thoughts....


    Okay, so if we go with the idea that the All Power is sort of symbolic of the power the throne of Asgard wields, then maybe the key is, as I kinda said above, to split it up. But maybe not just a triumvirate or similar, but an actual parliament. Asgard would presumably have a bit more power than the others, but if you took it from a strict monarchy where the king makes all decisions for all the realms, and make it into a parliament where each ruler of the realms has a say, that could make Thor the last king of Asgard, and solve the too powerful to use in stories issue, if the All Power gets split as well. It would also fit with the setup Cates laid out in his first issue, where Thor kinda threatened all the realms into submission, with like 'behave, or I'll come down there and beat your ass' implications. Which is... you know, not great. This could turn the stick into a carrot, where behaving comes with a reward of additional power and input into how things are run, rather than misbehaving resulting in punishment. And the additional power could mean they are less reliant on Asgard coming in to solve problems. Also, I mean, old Norse society actually was based on a parliamentary system, called Things, or Folkmoots. So we even have like Norse based terminology to use. 'thing' would probably lead to confusion nowadays, but 'Folkmoot' or 'Althing' or some other '____thing' or 'ting' could work. The Lawspeaker would be a step above the others, but everyone has a say, and a portion of the power. Now, there are potential problems here. First, there is the question of what to do with problem realms, that have a history of attacking Asgard and the other realms, such as Muspelheim or Svartalfheim. (and formerly Jotunheim, but Loki being king there solves that for the time being) But if the assembly is large enough, this should balance out, maybe. And it's possible you could try to get a sympathetic ruler in there, like happened with Jotunheim with Loki, but then you have problem arising with accusations of puppet regimes etc. And then there is the problem of Midgard. All the other realms have singular rulers that could act as representatives on behalf of their realms, but that is not the case with Midgard. Like say they sent the president of the US as representing all of Midgard, obviously that would have ISSUES, it could even lead to war. But these are problems that could lead to good stories as they try to figure them out in the books. To be fair, Aaron did play with this idea, but it seems to have gone back to strict monarchy, but I don't think it's an idea that needs to be abandoned because Odin didn't like it.

    Second thing, the preview... the tease of the future story of a darkness in the sun.... Could it be the Void? Or a part of it, at least? Like, Cates brought the Sentry, and by extension the Void, back during Dr Strange, and had Loki fight it. Which was big for Loki, considering the Void had previously killed him. Also Thor TOSSED SENTRY INTO THE SUN, after Siege. Now, Cates did since use Sentry and the Void during King in Black, but it ended up right back in the sun. This time separated from Sentry. I'm just saying... things seem to be connecting here? So, my thought is maybe some remnant of the Void remained in the sun, even after Sentry was resurrected, so when Mjolnir was reforged, it got tainted. And now the Void is back in there, festering, even if that's not what tainted Mjolnir. If it IS the Void, I think that could point to big things for Loki. After the Dr Strange incident, the Void is kinda the closest thing, besides maybe Nightmare or Mephisto, that Loki has to a recurring villain. Died to it the first time, (while simultaneously aiding in it's defeat) needed help to beat it the second time, so next time, it may be something he has to face alone. And like back to my fate and indicting incident thing on the previous page, Loki dying to the Void is what set him on the redemptive path he's been following since JIM. So if this IS the Void, it makes a lot more sense as a Loki villain than a Thor one. Loki's faced it twice, died to it once, which you can't say about Thor. The Void could be Loki's Mangog. It also kinda of has a symbolic essence (which is also shared by Mephisto o be fair) of Loki fighting his own inner darkness.
    Last edited by Raye; 01-24-2022 at 10:03 PM.

  6. #81
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    Okay, latest issue:

    Loki wasn't in it, even though he was with the others last issue and the rest of them (minus Throg?) are there. However, we know from the solicits that the Avengers and maybe a bunch of other people show up to help, so I'm almost certain he's just gone to get reinforcements. I wonder if he'll convince warriors from the other realms to come as well (easy way to prove that it wasn't Thor causing the destruction, too, kill two birds with one stone). He can teleport some number of people there too, so it would be a super easy way to explain everyone showing up.

    Non Loki related: I like Sif. She is pretty cool.

    Maybe Loki related: It looks like Cates is also going into the question of what it means to be worthy. Now, I was a bit split about Mjolnir's attitude: on the one hand, while I think Thor has been doing a poor job lately, it also felt like the god of hammers was throwing a temper tantrum. I guess it could be both things, but that's a very fine line to tread, and lately it has felt a bit like people have been telling Thor he's doing a bad job rather than showing him doing so (even though I understand where he's gone wrong). Also, I wasn't able to tell whether she was saying that he'd never been worthy or that he wasn't worthy right now -- I think the former, but it was hard to tell, and that is part of what makes the rant just seem rage induced.

    ETA: The reason I see the last one being related to Loki is because I feel like it's going to tie into the purpose of the roles, especially since Thor's ongoing conflict is torn between King and Champion. I think we'll probably see the cannon around it "firmed up".
    Last edited by Riimi; 01-26-2022 at 11:51 AM.

  7. #82
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    Loki is probably either currently busy dealing with the disaster that just hit Jotunheim, he does have a responsibility to deal with that, and/or yeah, he's off getting reinforcements, maybe magic types, or doing the big brain stuff again, like he did last time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    My first thought months ago was Mangog infecting Mjolnir, but the preview seems to hint at something else, something that's been lurking there longer.
    So. Guess i should have stuck with my first instinct here. Called it, and then un-called it. But to be fair, the preview did initially make it seem like what infected Mjolnir was also the darkness it was teasing, that Mjolnir was just the first taste. But no, further reading it looks like it was talking about another evil that got tossed into the sun, and will be coming later. In which case, Mangog for this and Void for later can still work. I did look up times bad guys have been hurled into the sun at Marvel, and the list is surprisingly short, it seems to be mostly a DC trope. So, yeah, Mangog and Sentry/Void/Knull are about it, really. At least when it comes to something i could see surviving/lingering in some way. There may be some super obscure thing that is just not coming up when i search, either a character or an object, because most people have forgotten about it, but... I dunno it just seems odd to me to do one story about an evil thing tossed into the sun coming back, to just follow it by another story of a DIFFERENT evil trapped in the sun, you know? but that appears to be what's happening. Like i doubt it will follow immediately after, it's probably more of a looming threat running in the background, but still, it's weird to think about two evils brewing in the sun simultaneously, and both coming for Asgard.

    Anyway, yeah, we got the reason for Mjolnir acting up, in addition to being corrupted by Mangog, which, yeah, i hit on that early because that part does make sense, it's a dangling plot thread, and when you have Thor reforging Mjolnir in the sun, and Mangog got tossed int here with it... I mean... It's not much of a leap. But the other reason is that she's.... bored. It does kinda make sense with what we've seen, it has acted up primarily when Thor was in Asgard, and then behaved more normally when he went out to beat up Galactus and stuff, and it may have just been letting anyone pick it up because it would mean something was happening. And yeah, it's a sentient weapon, a weapon wants to weapon, i get that. I just would have hoped for something a little meatier. And yeah, it did feel like a childish temper tantrum. hopefully this is mostly Mangog's influence. And it seems odd to be kind of punishing Thor for it, cus it's not like he isn't bored as well, it's not like he was happy about the situation, he was jumping at any chance he could get to whack things with a hammer.

    And I think she was saying that he was worthy before, but (and I have said this before) everyone, including Thor, assumed 'worthy' was synonymous with 'good' or 'noble' or other positive attributes, but she was saying 'worthy' meant something... not as good as people thought. That it meant someone who was violent and aggressive and brutish. Though I don't think that can be all there is, or it would not have been so rare to be able to lift it in the past, while i don't think 'worthy' was ever synonymous with being a paragon of virtue, there was at least some element in there that judged moral character. In Aaron's run, it seemed to get laid out that a big part was recognizing you were flawed and trying to do better despite knowing you may never reach that goal. so I wonder where that aspect went.

    But yes, the main conflict here, though it is being amplified/muddled by Mangog, seems to be that Thor's new role of king conflicts with what Mjolnir wants to do. He was right when he left the hammer with the Avengers, that he could no longer be Asgard's 'spear'. But with Mangog corrupting Mjolnir, things went awry. If Mangog hadn't been corrupting it, things probably would have gone more smoothly, Mjolnir would have found someone else to wield it, possibly the new Champion (though I still don't think Mjolnir necessarily is attached to that role) and things likely would have been fine. So I do think this will further solidify what the roles,but specifically the King and Champion, are all about.
    Last edited by Raye; 01-26-2022 at 12:34 PM.

  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    Okay, so had a day to mull things over a bit, and have some more thoughts.

    There seems to be a lot of focus leading into this about the OTHER souls in Mjolnir, mainly the dwarven blacksmiths, and now Mangog, but also it feels like there is something Odin still hasn't quite told us, so there may be a third in there, possibly this mystery sibling? But Mjolnir here doesn't mention them at all. So, while i do think there is some truth in what Mjolnir said, it isn't the WHOLE truth, because she's only talking about the Mother Storm part of things, while Mjolnir as we've known it for most of Marvel history was actually an amalgam, apparently. I think Mjolnir here was intentionally being cruel and cutting, so left out the good aspects of worthiness, and painting only half the picture. It implied that worthiness was all these negative qualities, that favoured violence, but that can't be, or someone like Wolverine or Punisher would have been worthy. Also, regarding what it said, hammers aren't only meant to be destructive, in fact destruction is a secondary purpose, their main purpose is to create. Like, you know, the hammers of the dwarven blacksmiths that forged Mjolnir. So I think what's going on here is that worthiness has a duality aspect to it. There were two contradictory aspects trapped in Mjolnir, the Mother Storm, which was a violent force that Odin imprisoned to end it's threat, and the dwarven blacksmiths souls, which represented creation, which were kinda like the wardens of the prison, keeping it in check. And to be worthy, you had to possess both qualities, which is why worthiness was so rare. But Mjolnir is only taking about the half the Storm represents, here, presumably because the wardens of the prison were not re-incorporated when it was reforged, instead Mangog's soul was used. The half with the more positive qualities has apparently been supplanted and the violent side is now in control, maybe amplified by Mangog.

    So I'm thinking, Mjolnir needs to be reforged again, to remove Mangog, cus obviously, and put a warden on the Mother Storm's prison again, and restore the morality aspect to the enchantment. I've had this thought before, where I thought the prophecy loophole of Thor being 'trapped in fire forevermore' was him putting a piece of his soul into Mjolnir while reforging it. But the reasons are becoming clearer now. And this mystery death throws a new element into things as well. It could be that this person's soul gets incorporated either in stead of or in addition to Thor. In which case, I do think this makes Freyja even more likely to die. But it still may be the case that Thor's soul gets incorporated, thus fulfilling the prophecy, though if so it seems weird to me that Thor would keep it. Like, if we think of the other souls being the morality of the enchantment, then it doesn't make sense for Thor to imbue his own soul into it and then keep it afterwards, cus then it doesn't act as a guiding light the way the old enchantment did, because it's just.... his own morals, it's not really anything aspirational for him. But we've seen him with Mjolnir in the Hulk stuff, so.... I dunno, either that is a temporary situation, or he may not be one of the soul donors. I think if Thor and/or Freyja are the soul donors, then it makes sense again to ave Loki get Mjolnir at some point, because then they would be acting as like his guiding beacon, keeping him on track, and adding this duality aspect works will for him, even if his dark side is somewhat different than Thor's, and reforging it with different souls could change the qualities it looks for in terms of being 'worthy', but it would represent what's going on with him, and trying to be better and fighting against his darker instincts. It's just that it appears Thor still has it in the Hulk stuff, so I dunno.

    OK, so doing the playlist thing again cus i had a couple really fitting songs i wanted to get in there before i forgot. Just the Youtube one so far, will do Spotify once the arc ends, cus i will no doubt be rejiggering things. Starts here-ish. Which i had in there for end of last issue, but it also fits for this issue, so let's just call it that fuzzy in between song. And then it goes until.... I'm not entirely sure, to be honest. Sometime in between Worst of Me and Eye of the Storm, we'll see what next issue brings. Had a tough time deciding on which of the assorted 'storm' songs i had gathered to use, but decided on Ad Infinitum's I Am the Storm. Can probably find a place for the others next issue or two. But I think the theme song for this issue is an old favorite of mine I'm stoked i got to use:



    Thank you Muse for releasing an absolutely amazing new song to remind me that this song existed. Been a fan for years and years, and this is one of my favourites of theirs, but I had kinda fallen off listening to them in recent years, but their new track won't Stand Down (also in there for later) is fantastic, and got me to go back through all my old faves of theirs, and realized this one is a perfect fit. Still kinda looking through some stuff i may add, kinda feeling like Metallica and/or Lamb of God has something that would fir here, or in the next issue or two, but can't put my finger on a specific song just yet.

  9. #84
    Spectacular Member Fanto.mx's Avatar
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    Mjolgog is definitely throwing a tantrum. This issue retroactively means that the slaughter of the previous issues was...slaughter. No purpose except death and attention. Like it WOULD make sense that Mjolnir would slaughter the worthy in order to prevent exactly what we think might happen. But no. Maybe SOME logic to killing the dwarves, but it's pretty clearly about breaking things.

    The dwarf logic would be preventing Mjolgog from being tracked or fixed, but the rest seems to be simply to hurt Thor and "prove" that hammers are for smashing, which is, of course, blatantly ridiculous. But with Mangog fueling the Mother Storm's rage and its usual penchant for destruction...BAM. Slaughter. Pain. And she knows all the buttons to push with Thor, since she knows him very, very well.

    There's an interesting subthread about memory here. If we think back to the early issues, there were several pages about how even Thor did not remember a lot of his exploits, but Mjolgog here claims to remember everything.

    And we have the looming worse darkness in the sun. Seems likely that that is the Void (or Knull or both...Knull & Void) but there's weird stuff happening with whether or not things are destroyed in there. For example, the dwarven souls that apparently keeping the Mother Storm in check (along with the enchantment? Pretty unclear how much effect and what effect the enchantment had, if any) seem like they would still be in the sun, but all the dwarves are dead and so it's entirely possible that their soul shards rejoined the rest of their souls...wherever they went.

    And with all this talk of souls, there's a definitely related piece, though I'm not sure how it fits: The prophecy of the golden king:





    Seems like Thor's soul (provided Thor is actually the Golden King) might get entirely or partially trapped in Mjolnir in "fixing" Mjolnir. But there's also an unclear referent in "his soul," which could be read as the soul of the Golden King, but also could be read as the soul of the God of Hammers. There's also the difference between the two prophecies, including the difference between "take" and "kill," which may indicate that the two are branching possibilities, rather than the same prophecy.
    Last edited by Fanto.mx; 01-29-2022 at 12:02 PM.

  10. #85
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    Yeah this is an extremely bloodthirsty move. Frankly i am not sure why Thor (or anyone) would want to continue to work with Mjolnir after what it just did, it slaughtered thousands of innocents for the pettiest of reasons. Nothing Loki has ever done even at his worst could compete. I guess it could be a sort of 'gotta keep an eye on it' thing. But after so many years of Thor and Mjolnir being, you know, partners... or at least Thor thought they were, having to carry this hammer that had basically betrayed your trust like this... and so soon after it happened, too. Like no cooldown period or anything. And yeah, I do get Mangog is likely making things a lot worse, maybe amplifying the bad aspects inside Mjolnir, and removing Mangog could make it behave nice. But like, Odin felt the need to imprison it in the first place, you know? So we can't really be too surprised that it's been destructive... but at the same time, i remember back during Aaron's run when Mjolnir talked to Jane and it didn't seem like this. So I guess we'll have to see how much of this behaviour is Mjolnir and how much is Mangog.

    I do bet Thor has some event in his past that he's forgotten about that is relevant. While I didn't like the specifics of how it was described (it made it seem like Thor just had memory problems, because he forgot things from like, last week rather than things fading away over enormous stretches of time), I do think the idea that living for thousands and thousands of years means there are great swaths of time that you've simply forgotten is an interesting one. The idea that you could have been a different kind of person like 500 years ago and you just don't remember poses some interesting questions about identity and stuff. So yeah, I am betting Thor did something way back when that he'd find cringe worthy these days.

    As for the 'take' and 'kill' thing, it seemed to me that the 'take' bit was a leadup to the 'killing' like the God of Hammers would take him, and THEN kill him. But I am trying to not get too focused on the minutiae of the wording, because I think that while they want this prophecy loophole to not be too easy to guess at, they don't want to bury it under a ton of splitting of hairs over wording either. I mean we are already dealing with some concepts in this run that some people are having difficulty grasping, no need to make it too much harder. The solution when it is revealed should make sense in hindsight without having to go back and dissect the wording too much. I know prophecies rely on fuzzy meanings in the wording, but... there are limits.

    As for the dwarven souls... I mean this is just my preference, but I kinda hope they just... went off and joined the rest of their souls int he afterlife. To me, this seems to be a way to not just fix it, but to fundamentally alter Mjolnir, and it's enchantment, and just putting the original 'morals' back defeats that. I think Mjolnir should have a different set of 'worthy' requirements afterwards. Whether it's a different set of rules because Thor is doing a different job now, which comes with different expectations of him, or because it is being passed on to a new champion who has a somewhat different way of operating, either way, i would like to see the rules changed. We've had so many people lift it recently, it ceased being special and unique to Thor, even though some of those times have been fakeouts. So I think it needs to have a different set of rules that excludes all but one person again, at least for a while. Make it clear afterwards that like Bill and Cap can't lift it anymore. On that note, though, those other people did potentially fill a valuable purpose here, if Thor thinks it through. Looking at who else was deemed worthy (when the enchantment wasn't being fucked with in some way) should tell Thor that Mjolnir is a big fat liar in this past issue. If what it said was true, then Cap, and Bill, and Jane and etc. would have to be hidden violent psychos, but they aren't. Also lying about hammers being for destruction, as mentioned previously. But Thor's never been that great at spotting lies. But they've made a point this run of making Loki be particularly good at spotting them, so.... Maybe he will be able to help there.

  11. #86
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    Okay I had some deeper thoughts but I've been sick lately. I just auto restored what I had written but I don't have the capacity for a lot of thought at this point. (Sudden and severe allergies -- I'll be okay but I'm exhausted right now.)

    So here's what I had:

    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    Loki is probably either currently busy dealing with the disaster that just hit Jotunheim, he does have a responsibility to deal with that, and/or yeah, he's off getting reinforcements, maybe magic types, or doing the big brain stuff again, like he did last time.

    And I think she was saying that he was worthy before, but (and I have said this before) everyone, including Thor, assumed 'worthy' was synonymous with 'good' or 'noble' or other positive attributes, but she was saying 'worthy' meant something... not as good as people thought. That it meant someone who was violent and aggressive and brutish. Though I don't think that can be all there is, or it would not have been so rare to be able to lift it in the past, while i don't think 'worthy' was ever synonymous with being a paragon of virtue, there was at least some element in there that judged moral character. In Aaron's run, it seemed to get laid out that a big part was recognizing you were flawed and trying to do better despite knowing you may never reach that goal. so I wonder where that aspect went.

    But yes, the main conflict here, though it is being amplified/muddled by Mangog, seems to be that Thor's new role of king conflicts with what Mjolnir wants to do. He was right when he left the hammer with the Avengers, that he could no longer be Asgard's 'spear'. But with Mangog corrupting Mjolnir, things went awry. If Mangog hadn't been corrupting it, things probably would have gone more smoothly, Mjolnir would have found someone else to wield it, possibly the new Champion (though I still don't think Mjolnir necessarily is attached to that role) and things likely would have been fine. So I do think this will further solidify what the roles,but specifically the King and Champion, are all about.
    The recent runs of Thor have definitely deconstructed (and in Aaron's case, reconstructed) the idea of 'worthiness'. I feel like Cates is in part deconstructing the role of warrior: we tend to glorify warriors, but violence is intrinsically linked to the role. Now, I believe violence can be justified, but the idea of superheroes almost begs the question of how often that justification holds true. It's an interesting take -- I tend to lean more towards restorative justice overall, but that doesn't really sync up with the illusion of change present in comics (then again, the Asgard books have had a lot of commentary about that). Basically, villains as a whole have to remain villains to have conflict, so redemption is often out of reach. And then there's a whole argument that meeting violence with even more violence ups the stakes for subsequent combat -- I see Thor beheading Galactus as an example of this, in addition to (as you mention) the threat to the realms that he would bring down the hammer on them if they misbehaved. I know I've mentioned before how Loki has actually been shown, in general, in a more positive light than Thor, and this interpretation brings that into greater contrast. (Some of this is because it's Thor's book, so devoting time to Loki struggling would be difficult, but still.) By pacifying the rest of the realms, and even perhaps in recommending Throg to Thor as a spy, the book has shown he values a more communal approach.

    And I had more to say but I can't express it well at this point.

    Anyways, I was going to wait until I felt better to post, but I saw this: https://bleedingcool.com/comics/loki...-for-may-2023/

    Mostly excited to see him get something, hoping that it's a sign that we might get more stuff soon.

    The solicit does seem to lean into the possibility of him being untrustworthy, but it also acknowledges some more recent events (him becoming god of outcasts after the destruction of Asgard at least acknowledges Kibblesmith's book, imo). Also, his goal is to restore Asgard, which is a good goal, or at least a relatable one...even if the solicit makes it seem like it could come at a cost to everyone else. I'm kind of expecting a situation like Cates' run on Doctor Strange, where everyone is like, omg he's up to no good, only for him to actually make stuff work. Also, the other titles are all "heroic".

    I'll be very surprised if he doesn't end up working with everyone else at the end, I'm mostly just annoyed at the constant "is he good or not?" Then again, Marvel does love their heroes vs heroes stuff, so maybe this is in some ways just par for the course.

    ETA: Actually, after thinking it over a bit, I think I may have been a bit too bleak. After all, even in the worst case scenario where him bringing back Asgard comes at a cost, he'd still be anti-hero or at least a very anti-heroic leaning anti-villain (depending on what the cost is). Also, since the solicit presents this idea as the central conflict, I'd be very surprised if it was like "Is Loki going to do [the thing]" and then the comic was like "Yes". Might as well not have a comic, then.

    Also I said I was excited for him to work with Spidey, but I didn't realize this is a different SpiderMan.
    Last edited by Riimi; 02-08-2022 at 09:28 AM.

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    ack, i hope you feel better soon!

    And I had similar thoughts over the past few days, about deconstructing worthiness. Here's something i said to a friend in Discord a few days ago:

    Raye — 02/06/2022
    had a bit of a realization about how Thor still has the hammer in the Hulk stuff.... that would be the perfect story for him to realize a fight may not always be the best response to a problem
    [7:24 AM]
    like, if we think about Hulk and Thor fighting, yeah Thor may be justified given events in Hulk, but what if it doesn't accomplish anything other than create a spectacle?
    [7:25 AM]
    I've said since we heard about it that I think the most interesting part of a Thor/Hulk crossover is the possibility of Loki VS Banner, not Hulk VS Thor
    [7:25 AM]
    so what if that happens, and Loki ends up more effective in the long run, talking him down?
    [7:26 AM]
    maybe Thor would have to realize the modern day Champion isn't necessarily a 'warrior'
    [7:28 AM]
    like, it appears Cates introduced that space arena for the purpose of hosting this fight, that pretty blatantly says the fight is a spectacle more than it is an actual solution
    [7:28 AM]
    also a callback/nod to Ragnarok, but still

    So like, it just was a thought that gave me a bit of optimism that things post God of Hammers for Loki, and that it may just be a continuation of Thor having to learn some things about how things operate in more modern times. Cates is a bit of an unusual writer in that he clearly loooooves big bombastic scenes of action, the bigger and crazier the better, BUT it's always undercut with deep emotional themes, or political themes, wherein a lot of the time that same big bombastic action is being critiqued. Like for a Loki example, when Loki and Strange fought and then Zelma stopped them and called them childish for dealing with things in that way. It's common with Cates' stuff, like a lot of 'that was awesome!!!' stuff, and a lot of time, it undeniably is, and is a lot of fun.... but was it necessary? Was a giant fight actually the best way to resolve a situation? Sometimes what's most 'fun' isn't the best way. So this would fit in with that kind of theme. And yeah, it's a thing with superhero comics in general, it's just expected that bad guys get dealt with by punching them in the face until they give up. It's fun, it's entertaining, but at the same time, it's not so great on a messaging level. Yeah, sometimes, there is no other option, and the writers can and often do choose to create scenarios where it is actually the most reasonable option, but still.

    And yeah! i saw that about 2099, which is cool. so first of all, this is a variant Loki, so even if they do make him a bad guy, I'm not overly concerned. BUT due to how 2099 handled the Asgardians previously, where for some unexplained reason the Asgardians stopped visiting Midgard, and mortals created standins for them, they have free rein to pretty much start from scratch here, assuming this is the OG Loki, not the mortal version. Pretty sure that all that had previously been established was that the original Asgardians had stopped visiting Midgard, it wasn't clear if they were still out there but just gave up on Earth, or, as appears to be the case now, they were destroyed somehow. And this new 2099 Loki does seem to be borrowing a lot from the modern take of the character, from his costume to the 'outcasts' title, so I do have some hope that he's at worst an anti-hero. .

  13. #88
    Spectacular Member Fanto.mx's Avatar
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    The horned backpack is a neat idea and I foresee a lot of cosplay and lite cosplay being based on it. So much of the problem with cosplaying is having no place to put your stuff, and here's a really cool big ol' backpack. I wonder if this Loki variant will gain outsized interest simply for that.

    I wonder if Mjolnir is going to be divested of its traditional power and just left as basically a regular ol' very durable hammer. If Thor stays the All-Father with the All-Power, he doesn't need the hammer to be magical at all. But that might mean the Mother Storm (and maybe Gog?) might need a new prison. As we've been talking about for literal years, if Loki becomes the champion, it would make sense that whatever that prison is would become their weapon, but I can't decide what weapon would make the most sense for Loki as the New Champion. It should be more linked to him and his style than to the role of champion. It would make some sense for his helmet/headband to be his weapon/symbol of office, but it feels more likely to be a weapon. And given Cates' love of foreshadowing, it sure seems like we've likely already seen it.

    Gram would have made sense, but it was destroyed in the same story we would be pulling it from. Laeveteinn showed up in the show, but has been gone from the comics for a long time except for a flashback in AoA.

    I wonder if he'll be bestowed a weapon for this purpose by Freyja, which might mean that the Champion's Weapon would have involvement from Freyja, Odin, and Thor? His scepter was that, though, right? And contains King Loki? Actually...that might make sense.

  14. #89
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    I think it's not that the backpack itself is horned, it's that he's carrying around his old helmet, and how else is it gonna fit? so he sticks all his wanderer of the world stuff in the backpack, tops it off with the helmet, and the top flap closes over it, in between the horns. but yeah, i think it's cool and that says something about his backstory. Hadn't thought of cosplayers, but yes, that would be a huge benefit to cosplayers, to have a backpack built in to the costume. I wonder if that's part of why Deadpool is so popular, so they get access to all his pouches?

    Still, confused if this is the OG Loki or the Alchemax one. the Alchemax one kinda turned into a different character, Halloween Jack, and ended up... i think on 616? not exactly sure how, but i remember hearing that. So it makes sense that this would be the OG Loki, since it looks like him and not Boone, (tho shapeshifter, so) and as mentioned Boone is on the main universe now, somehow. Also I think it makes a LOT more sense for the OG Loki to have become this wanderer type deal, and be looking to restore Asgard. That would be the far more interesting story, imo, since there was this big mystery about what happened to the original Asgardians. Like, I do think the Alchemax recreations made sense in the cyberpunk setting of 2099... but I still want to know what happened to the originals, and what they would think of things. But the solicit mentions Alchemax. So I dunno.

    Loki actually did use Laeveteinn in the present day, when he fought Sigurd in AoA. Only appeared that one time tho. But in any case, I think a new weapon would be more impactful. Having Gram restored, like maybe Thor has it reforged to help make up for having broken it, or something, would be a close second though. But yeah, I don't think Thor really NEEDS Mjolnir to be all powered up, if he keeps the All-Force. He's plenty powerful without it, and can even call lightning still without it.

    Freyja did have a new special sword when she went into huntress mode, with the Fehu rune making up the hilt. She also used that massive buster sword type deal, cus Cates loves his oversized swords, but for Loki, I think a sword of more normal proportions would fit a lot better. Cates seems to like the use of runes, usually corresponding to the first letter of their name, so Thor gets the Thurisaz rune incorporated into his costume, and now Freyja gets Fehu as her sword... so, if Freyja dies, the new champion inheriting her sword could work.... but the rune is going to be wrong. Loki would be the Lagu rune, (currently using the Jera rune, but that's because Jotunheim, not tied to Loki specifically) if going by the same logic that Thor and Freyja are using. He'll also have to be a bit careful there, because some runes have been co-opted by Nazis and white supremacists, but so far I don't think any of the 'problem runes' are looking likely to come into play, but don't keep like super up to date on that or anything. But yeah, if Freyja or Thor GIVES him a sword, rather than him inheriting an already existing weapon, then it could use the proper rune, if they incorporate it into the design like they did with Freyja's sword.

  15. #90
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    So.... Loki was not in yesterday's issue of Thor (stupid Comixology/Amazon change, forgot about it until i saw it mentioned elsewhere. no subscriptions in Canada) I have some hopes he may come along next issue. It was made pretty clear that the others showing up to 'save the day' all heroic like was more of a liability than a help. They could do precisely 0 to help, and then Thor had to protect them from being obliterated in addition to trying to stop Mjolnirgog. So that Loki wasn't with them, actually wasn't a big deal. He may have realized that going there was suicide, and may be trying to do something from afar, or we can at least hope. but... umm... is the cover for issue 24 that they released a lie, then? Or will he be miraculously restored next issue? I mean the speculation could still work with the names changed, however the way Odin sacrificed himself may not lend itself to becoming a new 'prison warden' for Mjolnir, it might have happened too soon for that to work. But Thor definitely does not need Mjolnir's power now, as we were just saying, that's abundantly clear.

    btw. as an aside, I do think it is a bit harsh the way the book is painting everything as a failure of Odin. I know Odin has made a lot of mistakes, he's often hot headed, he's not been a great father a lot of the time, and clearly he'd made decisions that have backfired.... but I still think pinning this all on him is too harsh. Most of the things he did, they DID work, for thousands of years. I don't doubt that Mjolnir resents being locked inside a hammer for all that time, but if it was as destructive a force as has been shown, was there really another option? Particularly one that could be enacted right then? could he have honestly forseen that this would happen? And Blake's illusory realm did work, right until it didn't. it took years for him to see the cracks, and it was apparently helped along by Mjolnir we just learned. If Thor had not abandoned Blake in there, so he would have time to see through the facade, it may have continued to work. I'm just saying, hindsight is easy. I'm sure Thor has done things that he thought was the right choice, but will come back to bite everyone in the ass too. *cough*Galactus*cough*

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