Barbara Gordon: Batgirl/Oracle Appreciation 2022

[WebLurker]

I have to be honest, I'm a bit suspicious of the seemingly coordinated backlash against the decision. It just seems the same news outlets that pushed the Snyder cut are promoting the backlash. I don't see anything wrong with fan concern, but the media response just seems coordinated.....by the same outlets that would have reveled in slamming the film as a horrible misstep upon release.

The Snyder Cut did get decent reviews when it finally came out and it seems like most of the reporting on the Batgirl cancelation so far as been direct observations of the fact (some OPs on it being a mistake, but still). Also, most of the negative press for the Snyder Cut came from the toxic online activities of the Snyder cult over the years demanding its release (from review bombing, bullying people online, using bot, and, allegedly, being manipulated by Snyder himself), whereas, so far, the "Release Batgirl" crowd hasn't exactly shown that level of vitriol yet. So, I don't see it as a direct comparison yet.

(Also, while I'm sure there will be clickbait on the subject, it so far seems like most of the backlash has come from "fans," so it seems safe to assume that what pushback there is is genuine. Course, I'm someone who was looking forward to the movie and am mad enough that I'll probably personally boycott anything that's part of Zaslav's so-called ten year plan, but I can only speak for myself.

[godisawesome]

The Snyder Cut did get decent reviews when it finally came out and it seems like most of the reporting on the Batgirl cancelation so far as been direct observations of the fact (some OPs on it being a mistake, but still). Also, most of the negative press for the Snyder Cut came from the toxic online activities of the Snyder cult over the years demanding its release (from review bombing, bullying people online, using bot, and, allegedly, being manipulated by Snyder himself), whereas, so far, the "Release Batgirl" crowd hasn't exactly shown that level of vitriol yet. So, I don't see it as a direct comparison yet.

(Also, while I'm sure there will be clickbait on the subject, it so far seems like most of the backlash has come from "fans," so it seems safe to assume that what pushback there is is genuine. Course, I'm someone who was looking forward to the movie and am mad enough that I'll probably personally boycott anything that's part of Zaslav's so-called ten year plan, but I can only speak for myself.

I’d add that there were two large, important differences that add to the backlash seeming so dedicated and unflappable - it’s the first attempt to put a genuine Batfamily member back on screen since Batman And Robin, and had Michael Keaton back as Batman, while The Flash hasn’t been released yet.

For fans who love the Batfamily, the former fact is going to make them hopeful to see it succeed simply so more members can make it to films after we had to watch a half-hearted “Robin” reference in TDKR, a never-talked-about dead Robin in BvS, and an In-Name-Only version of Cassandra Cain. I mean… I’m a fan of Oracle Babs almost exclusively compared to Batgirl Babs (the Gotham Knights version is the first one I’m a little hopeful for as a good mix of them), but if a Batgril movie was rated as a success, that would move us closer to seeing actual Batfamily members on screen…

…and the entire Batfamily has millions of fans from several cartoons, video games, and live action shows now.

But Keaton’s return, even if it was supposed to happen after the Flash movie, also can’t be underestimated as an appeal to the larger audience. We all know returning classic hero actors get praise even when their actual return gets controversial.

Honestly… I feel like I the film was at all competent, it would likely have been at minimum a modest success even if put in theaters instead of HBO Max, which maybe very well have been the problem - convincing executives this made-for-streaming movie might be better used in theaters makes an uphill battle by itself.

[OOPS]

The Snyder Cut did get decent reviews when it finally came out and it seems like most of the reporting on the Batgirl cancelation so far as been direct observations of the fact (some OPs on it being a mistake, but still). Also, most of the negative press for the Snyder Cut came from the toxic online activities of the Snyder cult over the years demanding its release (from review bombing, bullying people online, using bot, and, allegedly, being manipulated by Snyder himself), whereas, so far, the "Release Batgirl" crowd hasn't exactly shown that level of vitriol yet. So, I don't see it as a direct comparison yet.

(Also, while I'm sure there will be clickbait on the subject, it so far seems like most of the backlash has come from "fans," so it seems safe to assume that what pushback there is is genuine. Course, I'm someone who was looking forward to the movie and am mad enough that I'll probably personally boycott anything that's part of Zaslav's so-called ten year plan, but I can only speak for myself.

Notice I said I didn't have a problem with fan concern. My concern was with the media coverage. WB has been notorious for years as having a lot of internal politics, as has DC. I use the Snyderverse situation as an example of a well coordinated media campaign...one that might have looked like a fan movement but was being flamed by factions within the industry.

[WebLurker]

I’d add that there were two large, important differences that add to the backlash seeming so dedicated and unflappable - it’s the first attempt to put a genuine Batfamily member back on screen since Batman And Robin, and had Michael Keaton back as Batman, while The Flash hasn’t been released yet.

Kinda seems like the Snyder cult has shown more energy so far (although its been around for a lot longer and it's still too early to tell the endurance the Batgirl crowd will have, esp. since the tax write off does set a point where the movie cannot be legally released for profit).

For fans who love the Batfamily, the former fact is going to make them hopeful to see it succeed simply so more members can make it to films after we had to watch a half-hearted “Robin” reference in TDKR, a never-talked-about dead Robin in BvS, and an In-Name-Only version of Cassandra Cain. I mean… I’m a fan of Oracle Babs almost exclusively compared to Batgirl Babs (the Gotham Knights version is the first one I’m a little hopeful for as a good mix of them), but if a Batgril movie was rated as a success, that would move us closer to seeing actual Batfamily members on screen…

As a Cassandra Cain fan, I would've preferred an accurate depiction of the character, but I was okay with it (Ella Jay Basco's character worked in and of itself and I did like the movie). I think it was stated somewhere that the crew weren't allowed to make the character like the comics for some reason.

I will agree that I like the Oracle incarnation better. Recently have been giving the old Birds of Prey TV show a shot. While some stuff is pretty dated, def. really like their take on the Oracle version of Barbara (so far, the cast and surrogate family connection between the three leads has been the most redeeming aspect of the show and Dena Meyer as Barbara is the standout).

…and the entire Batfamily has millions of fans from several cartoons, video games, and live action shows now.

Guess it remains to be seen if they can mobilize in time to make a difference. Personally, given how rarely these movements work and the time crunch r.e. the write off, I kinda suspect the best we can hope for is that the cancelation is retroactively seen as a mistake (or that Leslie Grace gets offered the role again if and when the Zaslav movies do their take on the character).

But Keaton’s return, even if it was supposed to happen after the Flash movie, also can’t be underestimated as an appeal to the larger audience. We all know returning classic hero actors get praise even when their actual return gets controversial.

Maybe, although it kinda seems like all that is being overshadowed by the rumors that we're going to be subjected to more Batfleck appearances. (Heck, wasn't one of the rumors that the movie got canceled because it was going to write Batfleck out of the series?)

Honestly… I feel like I the film was at all competent, it would likely have been at minimum a modest success even if put in theaters instead of HBO Max, which maybe very well have been the problem - convincing executives this made-for-streaming movie might be better used in theaters makes an uphill battle by itself.

We may never know for sure, although the credible reports that the test audience ratings was comparable to the movies that Zaslav "believed in," make it seem plausible. Zaslav certainly expressed a dismissal of streaming content, so I remain skeptical that it got a fair shake.

Notice I said I didn't have a problem with fan concern. My concern was with the media coverage. WB has been notorious for years as having a lot of internal politics, as has DC. I use the Snyderverse situation as an example of a well coordinated media campaign...one that might have looked like a fan movement but was being flamed by factions within the industry.

Okay, I misread that. So, you think that there's some hidden party influencing the new media to be sympathetic to the people WB Discovery screwed over by canceling Batgirl, like how it's been reported that Zack Snyder guided the Snyder cult to serve his ends?

[OOPS]

Kinda seems like the Snyder cult has shown more energy so far (although its been around for a lot longer and it's still too early to tell the endurance the Batgirl crowd will have, esp. since the tax write off does set a point where the movie cannot be legally released for profit).



As a Cassandra Cain fan, I would've preferred an accurate depiction of the character, but I was okay with it (Ella Jay Basco's character worked in and of itself and I did like the movie). I think it was stated somewhere that the crew weren't allowed to make the character like the comics for some reason.

I will agree that I like the Oracle incarnation better. Recently have been giving the old Birds of Prey TV show a shot. While some stuff is pretty dated, def. really like their take on the Oracle version of Barbara (so far, the cast and surrogate family connection between the three leads has been the most redeeming aspect of the show and Dena Meyer as Barbara is the standout).



Guess it remains to be seen if they can mobilize in time to make a difference. Personally, given how rarely these movements work and the time crunch r.e. the write off, I kinda suspect the best we can hope for is that the cancelation is retroactively seen as a mistake (or that Leslie Grace gets offered the role again if and when the Zaslav movies do their take on the character).



Maybe, although it kinda seems like all that is being overshadowed by the rumors that we're going to be subjected to more Batfleck appearances. (Heck, wasn't one of the rumors that the movie got canceled because it was going to write Batfleck out of the series?)



We may never know for sure, although the credible reports that the test audience ratings was comparable to the movies that Zaslav "believed in," make it seem plausible. Zaslav certainly expressed a dismissal of streaming content, so I remain skeptical that it got a fair shake.



Okay, I misread that. So, you think that there's some hidden party influencing the new media to be sympathetic to the people WB Discovery screwed over by canceling Batgirl, like how it's been reported that Zack Snyder guided the Snyder cult to serve his ends?

In a nut shell, yes. Plus it makes for good click bait.

[Aahz]

The Snyder Cut did get decent reviews when it finally came out and it seems like most of the reporting on the Batgirl cancelation so far as been direct observations of the fact (some OPs on it being a mistake, but still). Also, most of the negative press for the Snyder Cut came from the toxic online activities of the Snyder cult over the years demanding its release (from review bombing, bullying people online, using bot, and, allegedly, being manipulated by Snyder himself), whereas, so far, the "Release Batgirl" crowd hasn't exactly shown that level of vitriol yet. So, I don't see it as a direct comparison yet.

Btw. did WB actually make a profit from releasing the Snyder Cut?

[OOPS]

Tax write off, basically.

I would add that I don't think all "Batfamily" fans are necessarily up in arms over the cancelation. I, personally, would rather see the characters I enjoy represented "as is", rather than fundamentally changed. I believe this Barbara Gordon was described as "biker" chick". "Biker chick" wouldn't be my first description of any of the highly intelligent, witty, determined Batgirls.

[Digifiend]

No, but it's not inaccurate. Babs has indeed used a motorbike, just like Dick - but it's not the first thing you'd think of when describing him either.

[MajorHoy]

. . . I believe this Barbara Gordon was described as "biker" chick". "Biker chick" wouldn't be my first description of any of the highly intelligent, witty, determined Batgirls.

No, but it's not inaccurate. Babs has indeed used a motorbike, just like Dick - but it's not the first thing you'd think of when describing him either.

I guess I'm from a generation where the term "biker chick" didn't just mean a female who uses a motorbike / motorcycle for transportation.

Back in the day, I always heard "biker chick" used more to describe a female who hangs with a motorcycle gang, usually in somewhat derogatory way.

[Aahz]

No, but it's not inaccurate. Babs has indeed used a motorbike, just like Dick - but it's not the first thing you'd think of when describing him either.

But in Barbaras case it is really her iconic vehicle, that she used in the Adam West series as well as in the her Silver and Bronze Age comics.

There seem in general a tendency in the Batfranchise for the Man to have cars as their iconic vehicles and for the woman to have bikes. And that goes iirc back to the original Batwoman Kathy Kane.

I think only Helena with her Lamborghini is the big exception.

[Frontier]

I don't see anything wrong with Babs riding a bike.

[OOPS]

I don't see anything wrong with Babs riding a bike.

Do you see riding a motorcycle as the definition of "biker chick"?

[Digifiend]

But in Barbaras case it is really her iconic vehicle, that she used in the Adam West series as well as in the her Silver and Bronze Age comics.

There seem in general a tendency in the Batfranchise for the Man to have cars as their iconic vehicles and for the woman to have bikes. And that goes iirc back to the original Batwoman Kathy Kane.

I think only Helena with her Lamborghini is the big exception.

Not really. Like I said, Dick tends to use a motorbike as well - and doesn't Jason too? It's only really Bruce and Tim associated with cars, and Tim hasn't had his for over 20 years - his father fell on hard times and wanted to sell his car, which Jack didn't know was the tricked out Redbird, Robin's version of the Batmobile. He ended up selling it to a disguised Alfred.

[Frontier]

Do you see riding a motorcycle as the definition of "biker chick"?

I guess ?

[Aahz]

Not really. Like I said, Dick tends to use a motorbike as well - and doesn't Jason too?

To me Dick's most iconic vehicle is still the Nightbird from Dixon's run. He had iirc a Robin themed bike during the bronze age, but that was for pretty short time if you consider the length of his carrer. But I don't think he had ever a Nightwing Cycle.

And Jason never really had any special Vehicles, he usually drives completely normal civian ones, and none has ever really been around for more than a story arc or so.