Wonder Woman Rogues Gallery Appreciation 2022

[Vordan]

Damn shame this never came to be

[Frontier]

Damn shame this never came to be

Same here .

I don't think they ever clarified what was the issue between DC and the De Liz's.

[Vordan]

Same here .

I don't think they ever clarified what was the issue between DC and the De Liz's.

Oh you missed the drama? Her husband (the artist) got mad that someone else was doing a mini about the Amazons on an adventure pre-Diana. Apparently the De Lizs had pitched something similar and got rejected. He aired out his grievances over that in public on social media like a moron and so the two got fired.

[Alpha]

See that cosmic horror thing sounds cool, should be like some dark souls like boss locked in Dooms Doorway (which I don't think you think should exist). But, I wouldn't want 80+ years of history to be swiped because it doesn't match with a few people's sensibilities.

Circe, Ares, and Cheetah are great villains with years of history who embody ideals that Diana fights against. Superman is not on this planet specifically to fight Lex, he just embodies the core opposite values of Clark, same with Jocker and Batman. It's the ideals that come first, not a person's sex or gender, doesn't mean they should be ignored, however. Diana is a feminist and part of that is seeing that woman can be just as cruel and vile as anyone else. Oh sorry it doesn't "look good" when Diana fights the all powerful immortal witch trying to do some nefarious sceme, is not a good argument. It also isn't bad optics.

Diana should fight Cheetah and all her other villains, I totally agree. What I'm saying is that they shouldn't be the greatest enemies or even archenemies of the feminist superhero (nor should Dr Psycho).

Lex Luthor was always the stock villain of what Superman came here to stop. Crony men that want to stomp all over everyone else and control the world. Heck, he's even in the top two things Superman fights, mad scientists and aliens.
If you like the social crusader Superan than an evil businessman is a perfect symbol for the system he wants to overcome.

And Joker was always a stock villain of what Bruce is here to defeat, the madmen and criminals that use violence to take lives.

Or a machine...Dr. Cyber could go one step further and go fully robotic/cybernetic

Yes that's a good point. I mean, my favourite Dr Cyber is the one in the 70s, but you're right.

....Devastation is a woman, though. I'm confused by this logic.

She's a child most of the time. I don't see any implications in the idea of a feminist "fighting" an evil child that brings out the worst in others. But most of all, I don't actually expect Wonder Woman to actually punch her archenemy.

[Alpha]

Oh you missed the drama? Her husband (the artist) got mad that someone else was doing a mini about the Amazons on an adventure pre-Diana. Apparently the De Lizs had pitched something similar and got rejected. He aired out his grievances over that in public on social media like a moron and so the two got fired.

Well that's disappointing. I figured it was about something big and important, not that.

[Alpha]

It's funny. As much as I admire the narrative craftmanship on Myrina Black and First Born, recently on Circe, and even on Devastation, ..I'm still holding out for Queen Clea, Doctor Cyber and somebody weird and over the top, like Atomia or Queen of Fables...

You know. The freaks.

Hey I like Queen of Fables too (and Atomia)

[Access]

Going back to the cosmo horror ideia,I had this ideia of making inversion the inside out man an agent of such entity.He mas sent to the creature home dimension through a teleporter malfuction,where his mind and body were warped by the creature to act as a way to spread its influencie in our wolrd

[Agent Z]

I really don't think Diana's greatest enemy should be a woman that wants to conquer the world. It's just bad optics. Diana didn't come to this world to knock down other women. This doesn't mean she can't have villains like that, but they shouldn't be the top spot

Fighting a woman who wants to oppress and victimize both men and women isn't knocking other women down. Diana's been fighting other women since her inception.

[Agent Z]

nah, that's also bad optics.

So her greatest villain should either be:

1 A genderless creature, like a Lovecraftian entity of cosmic horror (Azathoth). In the vein of Dormmamu but even less antropomorphic

2 or a demon child that represents the loss of inocence and wants to bring out the ugliness in all our hearts, like Devastation (who was wasted after her creator left).


Diana doesn't really have the first, which is a shame since she is so often put into the fantasy genre.



I guess I'll just say it again, Diana didn't come to out world to knock other women down. The greatest danger posed to mankind shouldn't be another woman. Which doesn't mean that she shouldn't be fighting Cheetah or Circe, just that they shouldn't be the thing Diana is here to protect us from.

An archenemy and the greatest threat to mankind are not necessarily the same thing (see Lex Luthor). And even if it were, it's not sexist or counter to Diana's goals.

[Agent Z]

Yup. Braniac can do a whole lot more damage to the universe than Luthor. But I was continuing the line of argument Mel Dyer started about what her greatest villain should be like.

If we were just arguing about arch enemies my point still stands, except I say Devastation is the only answer. She is the only that can exploit Diana's greatest vulnerability, the fact that humanity doesn't deserve redemption.

Wonder Woman is a feminist icon, and the implications of her greatest threat being an evil woman (or an evil man) will always be too cumbersome for me.

Now this is what I would call counter to a Wonder Woman story.

[Agent Z]

Diana should fight Cheetah and all her other villains, I totally agree. What I'm saying is that they shouldn't be the greatest enemies or even archenemies of the feminist superhero (nor should Dr Psycho).

Lex Luthor was always the stock villain of what Superman came here to stop. Crony men that want to stomp all over everyone else and control the world. Heck, he's even in the top two things Superman fights, mad scientists and aliens.
If you like the social crusader Superan than an evil businessman is a perfect symbol for the system he wants to overcome.

And Joker was always a stock villain of what Bruce is here to defeat, the madmen and criminals that use violence to take lives.



Yes that's a good point. I mean, my favourite Dr Cyber is the one in the 70s, but you're right.



She's a child most of the time. I don't see any implications in the idea of a feminist "fighting" an evil child that brings out the worst in others. But most of all, I don't actually expect Wonder Woman to actually punch her archenemy.

What exactly do you expect her to do to her archenemy then?

And how is fighting a woman who disguises herself as a child somehow more feminist?

[Alpha]

Now this is what I would call counter to a Wonder Woman story.

Yes, that's the point of an archenemy.

What exactly do you expect her to do to her archenemy then?

And how is fighting a woman who disguises herself as a child somehow more feminist?

Remember that there are two topics being discussed here. One is about "Her Greatest Threat" the other is about "her archenemy".

I suppose I would position the Cosmic Horror villain yet to be created as her Greatest Threat, and Devastation as her archenemy.

Devastation isn't a woman, she is a child that can change her appearance to look younger or older. The oldest she has been drawn as was a young adult, and even that was very brief.

I expect Diana to try to contain the danger her archenemy poses. Since Devastation is constantly trying to convince people to unleash their inner monster, she would do whatever convinces people not to do that.

[Alpha]

Fighting a woman who wants to oppress and victimize both men and women isn't knocking other women down. Diana's been fighting other women since her inception.

Yes, but if the one thing you fear the most is a woman that wants to conquer the world, well that seems like a bad idea to me. So have all the female villains we already have, just don't make it so Diana's greatest fear is another woman.

Diana's greatest fear should be the loss of inocence. That even a little girl could be capable of sadistic behaviour, as well as the rest of mankind.

[Alpha]

Going back to the cosmo horror ideia,I had this ideia of making inversion the inside out man an agent of such entity.He mas sent to the creature home dimension through a teleporter malfuction,where his mind and body were warped by the creature to act as a way to spread its influencie in our wolrd

That's the villain from the Justice League Dark right? I only read the Witching Saga

[Rightoya]

That's the villain from the Justice League Dark right? I only read the Witching Saga

You must know him if you read the Witching Saga, it is this being, the Dark Multiverse counter part of Hecate: