Should Diana have to give up Themyscira for good?

[AlexLyo]

"The heroism of these characters starts from a place where they have decided not to do the other thing. They have taken up a responsibility that wasn't necessarily incumbent upon them to do. They decided 'I am going to do these things, I am going to use my abilities and powers to protect people. I am going to try to right wrongs. That is a choice I have made'. And then they have committed to the choice.

This is why it's so important to me that Diana not be able to go back to Themyscira, because if she can go home she hasn't sacrificed anything. There's no element of sacrifice if she's going "Oh I'm just in Man's World for a little while, but I'm gonna go home". She has to give it up.

She leaves with Steve, she has to leave willing, and believing that she will never see her mother again. She will never see her sisters again. She will never ever be able to go home. She will be a stranger in a strange land forever.

You grant her that, her heroism becomes very different. As opposed to "Well I'll be back next Tuesday, want anything from the mall?"

The above is an old quote (3 years ago) from Greg Rucka about pathos in comics heroes, referring to his decision during Rebirth to make it impossible for Diana to return to Themyscira, and I was curious to see how folks feel about the topic.

Should Diana be able to return to Themyscira freely, should it be impossible, or is there a third option where there are parameters or limitations?

On the one hand I can see what Rucka is getting at. Diana's sacrifice of paradise in order to change Man's World / Patriarch's World adds a lot of pathos as well as depth to her conviction. It shows that she's willing to give up her home, her family, a perfect paradise, for what she believes in. To follow her purpose or destiny.

(It occurs to me that this idea only really lands with Rucka's characterisation of Diana. It wouldn't work with a more adventurous, restless Diana who left because she wanted to see the world, or simply because she fell in love.)

The problem with Diana giving up Themyscira is that we lose Hippolyta and the Amazons as characters, and for storytelling. We wouldn't necessarily have to lose Nubia because there are versions where she left anyway too. And Artemis is a character who doesn't even come from Themyscira, and we have two whole other Amazon tribes to fill that gap.

But in a more symbolic sense, we do lose some of that sisterhood, and the opportunity that comes with showing Diana's strong relationship with Hippolyta navigate Diana's absences. We also lose a lot of the cultural tension between Themyscira and the outside world, something Rucka himself actually used in his first run.

So what do you folks think? Should Diana giving up Themyscira be a necessary part of her story? What are the pros, and cons of possible approaches?

[Primal Slayer]

I think her have to give up the island definitely adds weight behind her journey and overall story but i don't necessarily see it as an end all be all.

I like to go with the third invisible option:

Returning to Themyscira is nearly impossible but it can be done and it's something that takes Diana YEARS to do or takes divine intervention to achieve.

Once the island can be reached easily it basically should have it's gift of invisibility lifted so the Amazons may have paradise but for how long? Anyone can locate them if they look hard enough.

Of course there is the 4th option:

Diana leaves the island and thus gives up her immortality. She will age and die as a regular mortal will unless she is on the island.

[Agent Z]

Diana has been able to access Themyscira for decades and isn't seen as any less heroic for it. Rucka himself wrote Diana being able to come and go to Themyscira as she saw fit and it's rather ironic to see this viewpoint being pushed by writers and fans who claim to be against cynicism in superhero comics.

[SiegePerilous02]

Diana has been able to access Themyscira for decades and isn't seen as any less heroic for it. Rucka himself wrote Diana being able to come and go to Themyscira as she saw fit and it's rather ironic to see this viewpoint being pushed by writers and fans who claim to be against cynicism in superhero comics.

Diana making a sacrifice and not being able to go home isn't exactly cynical. Rucka also wrote her going back and forth in his first run, where established continuity was different.

I think you can sort of have it both ways. Diana believing she can never return (or at least that she can, but it's at the whim of the Gods and they can cut her off at any point) allows her to still make the heroic choice to sacrifice her place. But it doesn't mean it will always be that way.

[Guy_McNichts]

I do think Diana should be unable to return home at least at first. It adds pathos and sacrifice to her story, making her decision to be Wonder Woman more heroic and all that. I agree that she should sacrifice something in choosing to leave.
But Themyscira is too good a location with its own potential to leave off the board entirely.

It's sort of like the question whether Superman should be the last, last Kryptonian. True, him being the last of his kind adds weight and pathos to his character. But keeping him that way permanently removes Supergirl, Kandor, Zod and other possibilities.

If I was handling Wonder Woman, I would have her unable to return for the first few years of the comic. Eventually there'd be a story where she needs to return--which would not be easy and be a journey in itself--before gradually making it easier for her to come and go.

Maybe she loses something eventually having the ability to come and go as she pleases, but comics shouldn't be static.
Besides, Themyscira opening its shores plays into the story's greater arc of Diana bridging the world and improving it. Hippolyta learning to be more open and welcoming of outsiders is her arc.

Also, is it not heroic in a different way for Diana to choose to remain in the Man's World as Wonder Woman even when she can go back home if she wishes?

[AlexLyo]

I do think Diana should be unable to return home at least at first. It adds pathos and sacrifice to her story, making her decision to be Wonder Woman more heroic and all that. I agree that she should sacrifice something in choosing to leave.
But Themyscira is too good a location with its own potential to leave off the board entirely.

It's sort of like the question whether Superman should be the last, last Kryptonian. True, him being the last of his kind adds weight and pathos to his character. But keeping him that way permanently removes Supergirl, Kandor, Zod and other possibilities.

If I was handling Wonder Woman, I would have her unable to return for the first few years of the comic. Eventually there'd be a story where she needs to return--which would not be easy and be a journey in itself--before gradually making it easier for her to come and go.

Maybe she loses something eventually having the ability to come and go as she pleases, but comics shouldn't be static.
Besides, Themyscira opening its shores plays into the story's greater arc of Diana bridging the world and improving it. Hippolyta learning to be more open and welcoming of outsiders is her arc.

Also, is it not heroic in a different way for Diana to choose to remain in the Man's World as Wonder Woman even when she can go back home if she wishes?

I align with these sentiments and appreciate the comparison to Superman, that resonates. As you and Siege have both said, it feels like there's a way to have both - to make the leaving matter, but also make the return an event in and of itself, so we can then progress the story of Themyscira's relationship with the outside world and what that says about Diana's mission. As you said, there's something heroic in Diana continuing to live apart from her sisters despite them being right there, because she knows she's needed elsewhere.

As much as I didn't enjoy the characterisation of Hippolyta during the Contest arc where she judged Diana for not having achieved much while Themyscira was lost in a demon dimension (though we know that was deliberate distancing on her part in line with her protective manipulations), I think there's a kernel of a story there. Themyscira's relationship with the outside world does offer a sort of measure for thinking about where Diana is at with her "mission", and as a sort of metaphor for the struggles she's facing in changing the world. What King is currently doing with the Amazons as a whole now is a way of doing the same, and you kind of need Themyscira accessible in order to explore all these interesting things.

[Frontier]

I think it's fine if initially the idea is that she won't be able to go back or it'll be harder to go back...but eventually she is able to return home and Themyscira opens up to the wider world, because there's way more you can do with that than just having it be this unreachable place Diana longs for.

[Largo161]

Also, is it not heroic in a different way for Diana to choose to remain in the Man's World as Wonder Woman even when she can go back home if she wishes?

Yeah, this is exactly what I was gonna post. I don't mind what Rucka did at all, but Diana is demonstrating sacrifice and heroism either way.

[Skytten]

Agree with the people saying it should be close to impossible for her to return, but not impossible.
Should take her quite a few years to get back. This makes the choice to leave for Man’s World both more honourable, but also sadder.

[Gaius]

I can see it but I actually like Themyscira being still largely for mainly two reasons. The first being what others have said that I view Diana bridging Man's World and Themyscira an important part of her overall arc but also I like Themyscira still being an option for a Diana to return as a temptation.

Evil Superman stories have a Superman who failed being one who gave into the adage of "power corrupts, and absolute powers corrupts absolutely". This is usually then just lazily tacked on Wonder Woman because most at DC, or work on DC properties, don't view her anything other than a female Superman derivative. And also a desire to continue to make WW and the Amazons little more than blood-thirsty Bronze Age barbarians just looking for an excuse to conquer Man's World. However I think a true version of a "failed Wonder Woman" would be one who ultimately decides her Amazon seniors were right and that Man's World is beyond saving and simply goes back home, to paradise, to never return.

This is why one of the only good elseworld versions of Wonder Woman was the Red Son animated movie (not the book) and the one line in DKR of "Diana returned to her people" is the best use Frank Miller ever did with Wonder Woman (and is better than Waid's use of her KC).

[Dr. Poison]

I disagree that Diana should give up Themyscira for good. There's little value in doing that but lots more value if she can go home as far as interacting with Hippolyta, Nubia, & the other Amazons, having access to Amazon technology, and taking a break from Man's World when she gets stressed out.

[Frontier]

I disagree that Diana should give up Themyscira for good. There's little value in doing that but lots more value if she can go home as far as interacting with Hippolyta, Nubia, & the other Amazons, having access to Amazon technology, and taking a break from Man's World when she gets stressed out.

Yeah, I feel like cutting her off from Themyscira completely just doesn't work because you're going to want to mine her interacting with her people and seeing everyone's favorite Amazons and you can't really do that with it gone unless you pepper a bunch of flashbacks.

[OBrianTallent]

Diana keeping Themyscira and her family adds another layer of dimension between her, Superman and Batman. Superman lost his entire world, he can not go back. All he has is his adopted family. Batman lost his family but kept everything else...it's basically hollow, but still he made his family. Diana has access to her family, her history, her home. She's the opposite corner of the triangle for the three.

As for storywise, for my preferences...I rather like the idea of an adventurous Diana, wanting to know what's beyond the shores and wanting to explore it with Steve's arrival giving her the opportunity to escape what she sees as her confines, not jail...but definitely confined.

Thining about it, an interesting wrinkle might be that Themyscira is invisible to the outside world until Diana comes home, for some reason her being back reveals the island to the outside world. Would she choose to stay on the island knowing it might be vulnerable to invasion from the outside world? (Of course, my Themyscira wouldn't have a problem as I love the idea of the advanced technological island while not necessarily flying chariots as per the old Super Friends cartoon...I still want them on horses, flying horses and kangas!)

[phonogram12]

I'm on the fence, personally. On one hand it cuts off another possibly rich story avenue along with limiting her supporting cast (which is generally something I hate that writers do because don't you want more places to pull stories from?), but on the other, I can see Rucka's point. Adding a little more pathos to WW isn't necessarily a bad thing in the least. That said, I really liked the way the old tv show used the island and it's inhabitants. Visits back to her home were a rarity. I remember watching the reruns as a kid and feeling like I was really in for something special whenever WW returned to the island. It felt special every time because it happened so rarely. So I guess I'd prefer visits to the island be rarer than what they are. Use them for really big, special stories. Too much and it runs the risk of feeling mundane (which, admittedly, is how it felt to me in a few previous runs on the book).

[Frontier]

Honestly if Rucka had actually stuck around for a longer Rebirth run (which he might never have been willing to do) I wonder if he could have kept to this mantra or been too tempted to open up Themyscira.

But then we probably wouldn't have gotten Queen Nubia or Yara or all that.