Mr. and Mrs. X: The Gambit and Rogue Appreciation 2022

[Project Initiative Cascada]

I enjoyed the issue and thought it was fun, but I am kinda bummed we didn’t get to see Rogue and Irene’s reunion and her reaction to Irene’s physical appearance being around her age. Sounded like Rogue and D already reunited off panel and she was formally introducing her to Remy unless I read that wrong.

But alas like above at least we have that well written and emotional reunion from Carey’s run.

[Malachi]

I enjoyed the issue and thought it was fun, but I am kinda bummed we didn’t get to see Rogue and Irene’s reunion and her reaction to Irene’s physical appearance being around her age. Sounded like Rogue and D already reunited off panel and she was formally introducing her to Remy unless I read that wrong.

But alas like above at least we have that well written and emotional reunion from Carey’s run.

Yes they must have met off panel. So hopefully we get that scene someday.

[AppleJ]

Yes they must have met off panel. So hopefully we get that scene someday.

All these off panel reunions have made me extremely sad.

So I think the thing that threw me most was that this presentation of Destiny just didn't fit how I've read the character personally - in comics, in fanfiction, even in EVO. First off, I don't understand her motivation here for being a busy body and caring that their mission would be fruitless. She has always been the more chill, supportive parent of the two who wants Rogue to be happy. I agree she is manipulative, but I don't see her being this ... petty? She should have this very "big picture" outlook that makes her less interested in personal choices unless they're going to negatively impact Rogue's future or her ability to have access to/utilize Rogue in the future. But her calling Remy an assassin and a bumpkin? That feels more like how he should interact with Mystique.

[AppleJ]

If the scene was Mystique versus Remy I would probably have enjoyed it more. But I'm very glad to have gotten this nice hunk of relatively decent Rogue and Gambit interaction.

That said, I have some minor gripes.

[Malachi]

All these off panel reunions have made me extremely sad.

So I think the thing that threw me most was that this presentation of Destiny just didn't fit how I've read the character personally - in comics, in fanfiction, even in EVO. First off, I don't understand her motivation here for being a busy body and caring that their mission would be fruitless. She has always been the more chill, supportive parent of the two who wants Rogue to be happy. I agree she is manipulative, but I don't see her being this ... petty? She should have this very "big picture" outlook that makes her less interested in personal choices unless they're going to negatively impact Rogue's future or her ability to have access to/utilize Rogue in the future. But her calling Remy an assassin and a bumpkin? That feels more like how he should interact with Mystique.

Of course it’s highly ironic with either Destiny or Mystique trying to shade Remy for doing illegal activities. Or that he is a bayou bumpkin when their girl considers herself a Mississippi River rat. It’s more them having problems with reality or facing up to who Rogue is.

I think my biggest problem with this is that I too considered Destiny the more supportive parent. Now it just reads like Rogue has two arrogant self involved parents who are emotionally abusive. Not looking good for my fanfic about dysfunctional but kind of warm family dinners with the in-laws.

[Sandmans_Raven]

All I'll say is that this is not the first nor probably the last time that Duggan has written someone OOC

[NicoPony]

I think my biggest problem with this is that I too considered Destiny the more supportive parent. Now it just reads like Rogue has two arrogant self involved parents who are emotionally abusive. Not looking good for my fanfic about dysfunctional but kind of warm family dinners with the in-laws.

I will read your fic, choosing to ignore Duggan’s sitcom take on the whole relationship.

[AppleJ]

I think Destiny has seemed a tad more assertive or aggressive starting from how Hickman presented her in HoX/PoX, so perhaps this is a carry over?

Now I also have to agree, it was weird for Remy to get more time chatting up Destiny and probably more panel time than Rogue in her own book. I forgave that some only because Gambit has been so badly treated the last two years.

I feel a bit robbed of the emotional beats of Rogue reuniting with her long dead Mom though, even if I was glad to finally get this confrontation.

But also ... why is Destiny surprised about Gambit?! She's a precog! She should have seen him in Rogue's future. And he has been nothing but good to her since Messiah Complex. He's not holding her back from anything she wants or asking her to give up anything about herself. So other than distracting her from them and influencing her against them, Irene and Raven don't really have a leg to stand on against Remy. Like ... calling him an assassin? Ummm ... hello? Look in the mirror much? LOL I wonder how this will pan out and if it has any purpose other than being played for comedy?

Another gripe, I'm just tired of the "Gambit is awful" talk coming from yet another character and not seeing Rogue stand up for him. It's the piling on of this talking point from so many characters and then pairing it with him taking most of the punches in this scene, when he should be able to dodge at least a few of them, that annoys me. It just feels like writer after writer saying "I don't want to write this character who I think sucks and I want my audience to know it". It's just kind of disrespectful to fans that enjoy the character. And here's the thing, he's NOT awful. Not anymore so than any other X-character.

What I DID appreciate ... Rogue and Gambit going out on a fun mission together as equals. She never talked down to him once (as she did in Excalibur). He never talks down to her, so I don't even have to state this. No poor taste cat jokes. Both kicking some butt. And the zinger Gambit landed on Destiny at the end, throwing in Irene's face that his love for Rogue isn't conditional like hers. That part I really dug.

Generally the scene was another one used for laughs though, which is kinda how Duggan feels about the relationship I guess?

Also, I wouldn't call this a real Rogue focus issue. I hope we see more follow up.

[AppleJ]

I will read your fic, choosing to ignore Duggan’s sitcom take on the whole relationship.

I really liked what you did with YOURS on this topic too NicoPony!

[BobbysWorld]

I'm torn on this and probably won't make up my mind on the Remy and Irene dynamic until I see someone else write it, since I think Duggan tends to go for the low-hanging fruit of comedic moments over actual characterization. So I'm gonna hold off so I don't base my interpretation of their entire dynamic going forward on what may well be just an 'in-laws, am I right?' shtick just for the stake of LULZ.

That said, its possible 'Irene hates Remy' was handed to him as a directive if he was going to have them interact here, because it plays into future plans elsewhere.....in particular, Immortal X-Men. The line that stood out to me amidst all the comedy bits was when Remy asked why she hated him so much, she replied "You are my greatest disappointments made flesh."

We also know from Immortal X-Men promos that Irene met with Mr. Sinister in the 1920s, and clearly told him some shit. Given that its been clear for awhile that Sinister has known about the Moira/Xavier/Magneto triumvirate's plans for Krakoa since pretty much Day One, AND the constant teases about a history between Sinister and Gambit that goes beyond the Mutant Massacre and Sinister 'helping' with his powers......what I'm wondering now is if all of the above is connected.

Like, maybe waaaaay back when, Irene saw some stuff that had her seek out Sinister, foreseeing he'd be a big influence on the future, and tried to appeal to his better nature maybe or tell him about some of the worst choices he made and how they'd turn out....like basically what if Irene when she was much younger tried being a lot more open with her visions in order to influence Sinister into taking the better path....BUT he chose to be like nah, I'm just not going to do that, and instead he used information gleaned from her to avoid key defeats or jumpstart areas of his research that he's since then definitely used for messed up purposes?

In essence...what if whatever Remy's true origin, and whatever his connection to Sinister...what if its something that ONLY came about because Irene's history with Sinister altered his trajectory towards whatever chain of events led to Remy and his own history with Sinister? So Irene hates him in part because of guilt, like she sees him (unfairly, but realistically) as embodying everything that Sinister's done SINCE she shared her visions with him that he probably couldn't or might not have done without her involvement. Remy, in her eyes, could very well be a reminder of the failure of her own more altruistic attempts to shape the future, and with that in turn being how she justifies the choices she makes nowadays in controlling what form the future takes.

Something like that I think could potentially be interesting....especially because it could reframe the entire nature of the dynamic Mystique has with Remy. Rather than this being 'oh Irene hates Remy just like Mystique does'....what if its more like....'Mystique only really hates Remy because IRENE did?' If Remy has some kind of history or origin that made Irene aware of him and his connection to Sinister even long before he met Rogue (and she might not even have been aware of his future with Rogue, like she sees the future obviously but she can't see EVERYTHING about the future of even just her loved ones), like if Irene's feelings about Remy and what 'disappointments' he represents to her were well-established even before he met Rogue, and Mystique knew of them, then by the time Remy and Rogue DID get together, after Irene was already dead, Mystique might have been like oh HELL no.....but not even because she personally had anything against Remy, but simply because of what Irene held against Remy and how tied up in things involving Sinister (aka one of Irene's greatest disappointments, how her interactions with him ended up) he was.

I mean, if you think about it, Raven's always had this weird kind of divide where she respects Remy well enough when he's far away from Rogue, like she doesn't have anything against him individually, she just 'doesn't think he's good enough for her daughter.' But then at the exact same time, when she does try to engineer possible 'partners' for Rogue, like that guy Pulse....they're essentially just Diet Gambit. Not inherently all that different, almost like Raven would have no real problem with Gambit being with Rogue even, if he were simply just...not Remy, specifically. Like what kind of person he is, where he comes from, isn't really her problem with him and never has been....its just that he's Remy LeBeau, and Mystique's dead future-forecasting wife for years just told her 'ugh I hate that kid.'

*Shrugs* Just thoughts and musings. Something like that could be interesting though because it has the potential for Mystique to ironically 'come around' to Remy's side of things FIRST. Because now that Irene's back and actively meddling again, Raven's not going to be seeing her and her dictates through the rose-colored glasses of grief, but actively remembering oh yeah, part of what I love about this woman is how petty and grudge-bearing she can be, y'know, like me, and eventually the specific nature of Irene's rants about both Remy and Sinister in the here and now have Mystique being like hang on wait a sec. Honey, you had me thinking Gambit was like the mutant Anti-christ and that's why I've been trying to keep Rogue far the fuck away from him, but are you telling me all this time he's just been your Guilt Complex made flesh, because you feel bad about accidentally giving Mr. Sinister a Cliff Notes guidebook to the future??

Irene: .....ummm. Did I really forget to mention that last part? Oops. Sorry dear, there's just soooo much future, its hard to keep track of it all, you understand.

Raven: Irene what the fuck. This is key intel that's only been pivotal to the wedge I've driven between me and our daughter thanks to a decade of actively sabotaging her relationship with the man she loves.

Irene: okay but see you're not understanding. I really, REALLY hate everything even tangentially in Sinister's orbit. He sucks so much. So, SO much.

Raven: IRENE.

*Shrugs* Like I said, I'll be interested to see if Irene's feelings about Remy come up in more depth in Immortal X-Men, because I could see them being tied in some way to her history with Sinister. If nothing else, I hope Gillen's Destiny-centric issue gives us more of an actual reunion between Irene and Rogue, because this was very underwhelming on that front. Though at least we got her calling Irene 'Ma.' Its a crumb, but I'll take it, lmfao.

[ChronoRogue]

IBut also ... why is Destiny surprised about Gambit?! She's a precog! She should have seen him in Rogue's future. And he has been nothing but good to her since Messiah Complex. He's not holding her back from anything she wants or asking her to give up anything about herself. So other than distracting her from them and influencing her against them, Irene and Raven don't really have a leg to stand on against Remy. Like ... calling him an assassin? Ummm ... hello? Look in the mirror much? LOL I wonder how this will pan out and if it has any purpose other than being played for comedy?

Maybe I'm giving Duggan too much credit, but I can kinda see how someone with Mystique or Destiny's goals might be a bit disappointed with her daughters choice in romantic rival.

Gambit might be a King of Thieves but he's one that shirks the political leanings and responsibilities of the organization to strike out on his own. He's also in some ways more grounded in terms of what he wants in life, considering Valle Soledad and CCs future for Rogue & Gambit they usually prefer living a quiet life without much ambition, and so he "weakens" Rogue by making her more human instead of vigilante or pro-mutant focused.

If you want to take it a step further... which I hesitate to do since I'm bringing up the dreaded he-who-shall-not-be-named in the Romy thread, consider Rogue's other big romantic partner that Destiny might have seen in her visions. Someone who was sitting on the council, is typically much more involved in mutant politics and who might be influenced if he was attached to their daughter. well, that might be stretching it considering sometimes that relationship felt wholly one-sided... Destiny might be bitter because she lost that potential avenue in order to manipulate events through this marriage.

Gambit is obviously the healthier choice as a romantic partner, because he makes her happy w/o much drama. But for Destiny's goals, I could see how she might view him as distraction or even barrier to getting Rogue to be the tool she's always treated as by her mothers. (as much as they care for her, that's been her use to them)

Another gripe, I'm just tired of the "Gambit is awful" talk coming from yet another character and not seeing Rogue stand up for him. It's the piling on of this talking point from so many characters and then pairing it with him taking most of the punches in this scene, when he should be able to dodge at least a few of them, that annoys me. It just feels like writer after writer saying "I don't want to write this character who I think sucks and I want my audience to know it". It's just kind of disrespectful to fans that enjoy the character. And here's the thing, he's NOT awful. Not anymore so than any other X-character.

I do wish Rogue would've spoken up more instead of being distracted by the fight, though I actually think Duggan portrayed Gambit in a more positive light for once. Destiny was the one who came off less mature here, so maybe Rogue didn't feel the need to defend him.

Generally the scene was another one used for laughs though, which is kinda how Duggan feels about the relationship I guess?

Also, I wouldn't call this a real Rogue focus issue. I hope we see more follow up.

I think he does see them as a more light-heated relationship, which isn't necessarily a bad thing to me. Though I do wish he'd portray their more mature emotional beats to balance it out.

And agreed, I do hope this wasn't the Rogue issue since it focused more around Destiny and Gambit than Rogue herself.

[Romy134]

I feel a bit robbed of the emotional beats of Rogue reuniting with her long dead Mom though, even if I was glad to finally get this confrontation.

I feel this will come up later in Immortal X-Men, since that book is said to be focused on individual characters for each book, likely as a flash back or something. It's just to big of a talking point to totally ignore.

Also I keep seeing that Duggan says Rogue will boss it in X-Men #10, so I think she will still get more time to shine.

As for the "Gambit is awful" stuff its almost as if Gambit is getting type cast as this joke/annoying character. I don't see it from anyone other character. He also seems to be a punching bag for a couple of years now. I'm just hoping the introduction to the MCU/X-Men '97 will end this.

[AppleJ]

Maybe I'm giving Duggan too much credit, but I can kinda see how someone with Mystique or Destiny's goals might be a bit disappointed with her daughters choice in romantic rival.

Gambit might be a King of Thieves but he's one that shirks the political leanings and responsibilities of the organization to strike out on his own. He's also in some ways more grounded in terms of what he wants in life, considering Valle Soledad and CCs future for Rogue & Gambit they usually prefer living a quiet life without much ambition, and so he "weakens" Rogue by making her more human instead of vigilante or pro-mutant focused.

If you want to take it a step further... which I hesitate to do since I'm bringing up the dreaded he-who-shall-not-be-named in the Romy thread, consider Rogue's other big romantic partner that Destiny might have seen in her visions. Someone who was sitting on the council, is typically much more involved in mutant politics and who might be influenced if he was attached to their daughter. well, that might be stretching it considering sometimes that relationship felt wholly one-sided... Destiny might be bitter because she lost that potential avenue in order to manipulate events through this marriage.

Gambit is obviously the healthier choice as a romantic partner, because he makes her happy w/o much drama. But for Destiny's goals, I could see how she might view him as distraction or even barrier to getting Rogue to be the tool she's always treated as by her mothers. (as much as they care for her, that's been her use to them)

True! I do agree that it would have been to their benefit to pair her off with he who shall not be named. Conversely I would see Remy as an influence on her away from the viewpoint of political power, mutant superiority and separatism. His loyalty is to personal connection rather than nation and he likes to mingle with humans just fine. So you may be right there.

I do wish Rogue would've spoken up more instead of being distracted by the fight, though I actually think Duggan portrayed Gambit in a more positive light for once. Destiny was the one who came off less mature here, so maybe Rogue didn't feel the need to defend him.

I think he does see them as a more light-heated relationship, which isn't necessarily a bad thing to me. Though I do wish he'd portray their more mature emotional beats to balance it out.

And agreed, I do hope this wasn't the Rogue issue since it focused more around Destiny and Gambit than Rogue herself.

Yeah, I think it IS a hard balance for writers to strike correctly when writing a couple. Personally I want to see a pairing that stands up for and is supportive of each other, but I also like playful ribbing and banter between them. I love Gambit saying his love for Rogue is unconditional. I'd just like to hear her return that sentiment more often. But she really didn't get a ton of speaking time this issue. Honestly I just miss writers like CC and KT who know how to balance them better. But I didn't find this egregious about this issue when taken in isolation. It's really just more the general trend I've found irksome.

My test is if we swapped gender roles of the characters, does it still feel okay to do. Like, it would be super gross if Rogue was always being put down in Remy's presence without his rebuttal or if he belittled/ignored her concerns repeatedly. Or if she was always shown as the weaker, less competent partner. Excalibur did all these things ... repeatedly. So I just hope it's something writers are more aware of moving forward.

[Malachi]

While I would like Rogue to stand up for Gambit this one gets a pass for me. Destiny is just recently brought back and Rogue will hesitate to confront here yet. Plus this whole scene reflected badly on Destiny and not Gambit. He was playful and clever. Always defending Destiny and not getting anything back from it, instead he even got lied to. So if anything this scene makes just Rogue go sad. This is not the Destiny she remembered while she was dead. The one who supported her and gave her strength. No this is one more thing she has to deal with.

I thought about if they would like her with Magneto but in any AU or other where they end up Magneto isn’t really open up for being manipulated through her. If anything she is more isolated. So that would only work if Magnetos goals are their goals. Witch seems like a conflict waiting to happen and you can bet that Erik will not be as nice as Gambit is.

It seemed that Destiny had a big problem with X-men in general. So there is another problem for Rogue since she is definitely a strong defender of the X-men both as a team, family and concept.

Seeing that this is the way they decided to bring back Destiny I foresee lot of trouble for Rogue.

[Malachi]

I'm torn on this and probably won't make up my mind on the Remy and Irene dynamic until I see someone else write it, since I think Duggan tends to go for the low-hanging fruit of comedic moments over actual characterization. So I'm gonna hold off so I don't base my interpretation of their entire dynamic going forward on what may well be just an 'in-laws, am I right?' shtick just for the stake of LULZ.

That said, its possible 'Irene hates Remy' was handed to him as a directive if he was going to have them interact here, because it plays into future plans elsewhere.....in particular, Immortal X-Men. The line that stood out to me amidst all the comedy bits was when Remy asked why she hated him so much, she replied "You are my greatest disappointments made flesh."

We also know from Immortal X-Men promos that Irene met with Mr. Sinister in the 1920s, and clearly told him some shit. Given that its been clear for awhile that Sinister has known about the Moira/Xavier/Magneto triumvirate's plans for Krakoa since pretty much Day One, AND the constant teases about a history between Sinister and Gambit that goes beyond the Mutant Massacre and Sinister 'helping' with his powers......what I'm wondering now is if all of the above is connected.

Like, maybe waaaaay back when, Irene saw some stuff that had her seek out Sinister, foreseeing he'd be a big influence on the future, and tried to appeal to his better nature maybe or tell him about some of the worst choices he made and how they'd turn out....like basically what if Irene when she was much younger tried being a lot more open with her visions in order to influence Sinister into taking the better path....BUT he chose to be like nah, I'm just not going to do that, and instead he used information gleaned from her to avoid key defeats or jumpstart areas of his research that he's since then definitely used for messed up purposes?

In essence...what if whatever Remy's true origin, and whatever his connection to Sinister...what if its something that ONLY came about because Irene's history with Sinister altered his trajectory towards whatever chain of events led to Remy and his own history with Sinister? So Irene hates him in part because of guilt, like she sees him (unfairly, but realistically) as embodying everything that Sinister's done SINCE she shared her visions with him that he probably couldn't or might not have done without her involvement. Remy, in her eyes, could very well be a reminder of the failure of her own more altruistic attempts to shape the future, and with that in turn being how she justifies the choices she makes nowadays in controlling what form the future takes.

Something like that I think could potentially be interesting....especially because it could reframe the entire nature of the dynamic Mystique has with Remy. Rather than this being 'oh Irene hates Remy just like Mystique does'....what if its more like....'Mystique only really hates Remy because IRENE did?' If Remy has some kind of history or origin that made Irene aware of him and his connection to Sinister even long before he met Rogue (and she might not even have been aware of his future with Rogue, like she sees the future obviously but she can't see EVERYTHING about the future of even just her loved ones), like if Irene's feelings about Remy and what 'disappointments' he represents to her were well-established even before he met Rogue, and Mystique knew of them, then by the time Remy and Rogue DID get together, after Irene was already dead, Mystique might have been like oh HELL no.....but not even because she personally had anything against Remy, but simply because of what Irene held against Remy and how tied up in things involving Sinister (aka one of Irene's greatest disappointments, how her interactions with him ended up) he was.

I mean, if you think about it, Raven's always had this weird kind of divide where she respects Remy well enough when he's far away from Rogue, like she doesn't have anything against him individually, she just 'doesn't think he's good enough for her daughter.' But then at the exact same time, when she does try to engineer possible 'partners' for Rogue, like that guy Pulse....they're essentially just Diet Gambit. Not inherently all that different, almost like Raven would have no real problem with Gambit being with Rogue even, if he were simply just...not Remy, specifically. Like what kind of person he is, where he comes from, isn't really her problem with him and never has been....its just that he's Remy LeBeau, and Mystique's dead future-forecasting wife for years just told her 'ugh I hate that kid.'

*Shrugs* Just thoughts and musings. Something like that could be interesting though because it has the potential for Mystique to ironically 'come around' to Remy's side of things FIRST. Because now that Irene's back and actively meddling again, Raven's not going to be seeing her and her dictates through the rose-colored glasses of grief, but actively remembering oh yeah, part of what I love about this woman is how petty and grudge-bearing she can be, y'know, like me, and eventually the specific nature of Irene's rants about both Remy and Sinister in the here and now have Mystique being like hang on wait a sec. Honey, you had me thinking Gambit was like the mutant Anti-christ and that's why I've been trying to keep Rogue far the fuck away from him, but are you telling me all this time he's just been your Guilt Complex made flesh, because you feel bad about accidentally giving Mr. Sinister a Cliff Notes guidebook to the future??

Irene: .....ummm. Did I really forget to mention that last part? Oops. Sorry dear, there's just soooo much future, its hard to keep track of it all, you understand.

Raven: Irene what the fuck. This is key intel that's only been pivotal to the wedge I've driven between me and our daughter thanks to a decade of actively sabotaging her relationship with the man she loves.

Irene: okay but see you're not understanding. I really, REALLY hate everything even tangentially in Sinister's orbit. He sucks so much. So, SO much.

Raven: IRENE.

*Shrugs* Like I said, I'll be interested to see if Irene's feelings about Remy come up in more depth in Immortal X-Men, because I could see them being tied in some way to her history with Sinister. If nothing else, I hope Gillen's Destiny-centric issue gives us more of an actual reunion between Irene and Rogue, because this was very underwhelming on that front. Though at least we got her calling Irene 'Ma.' Its a crumb, but I'll take it, lmfao.

Let’s hope that immortal deals with this. I would love to see more nuance from Destiny in her personal connections and interactions. Duggan mostly played this one for laughs even if there probably are clues and hints in her dialogue.

Sinister and Irene might be fun. I am just hoping that in regards to Gambit they don’t dredge up the mutant massacre again. If so then Rogue should just tell Destiny to move on or get out.