Polaris: The Mistress of Magnetism Appreciation 2022

[jwatson]

I wanted Lorna to stay on X-men but i would gladly take her on red. I think Ewing would write the hell out of lorna with the ground work duggan laid and as a dr. and geophysicists she could also help with the fine tuning of the planet etc. And when she is pissed off she can jump in the circle for a bout of relief. lol. I think her personality would fit in great on the brotherhood.

And just a disclaimer there is just something about red that just makes me feel it can use one more female voice from krakoa. I can't even say why to be honest but it just feels like there's a small balance missing there. Like a puzzle piece gone. Lol

[salarta]

I have thoughts on how a Lorna and Havok relationship could theoretically work... but I never share them. Why? Because it's become really, really obvious over the past decade that Marvel cares way more about putting Havok on a pedestal, even if it involves mistreating Lorna to get there.

Perhaps not "even," but especially. We're talking about people blinded by nostalgia. Nostalgia is often cited as some lovely pie in the sky thing, but it has a darker more insidious side people don't talk about enough as a matter of nostalgia. Nostalgia can make sexism, racism, basically any ism seem like a wonderful trip down memory lane instead of a huge mistake of the past that needs to be corrected. Very often, people seduced by their own nostalgia are so beholden to their nostalgia that they absolutely refuse to question it. Refuse to see another, much better way of doing things. Because they don't want to move toward the future, they want to relive the past. Even when they tell themselves it's for the future, it's really just wanting to see more of the old. And they end up thinking that admitting to problems in their nostalgia is saying they, personally, are a terrible person for ever having experienced that nostalgia (when the reality is they're only a terrible person if they try to keep all that bad stuff intact for their nostalgia and ego).

I've been holding out. Because Marvel keeps holding out. If they're not going to do the right thing by Lorna, then I don't want them to be successful with any attempt at Havolaris. If people at Marvel refuse to give Lorna her due respect as her own character with meaningful history, then the Havolaris ship can die as people become more aware of how horribly that nostalgia trip source has actually been for Lorna and female characters in general. It's their choice.

I wanted Lorna to stay on X-men but i would gladly take her on red. I think Ewing would write the hell out of lorna with the ground work duggan laid and as a dr. and geophysicists she could also help with the fine tuning of the planet etc. And when she is pissed off she can jump in the circle for a bout of relief. lol. I think her personality would fit in great on the brotherhood.

And just a disclaimer there is just something about red that just makes me feel it can use one more female voice from krakoa. I can't even say why to be honest but it just feels like there's a small balance missing there. Like a puzzle piece gone. Lol

If Brand wasn't there OR Lorna and Brand weren't visually depicted like clones, and I had a sense that the Magneto love of earlier issues would actually work in Lorna's favor instead of undermining her, AND Lorna would still be involved in mutant issues on Earth, then I'd agree. Right now, I don't think she should be on X-Men Red because of those three elements.

I regularly use this cover from X-Men Blue as a visual for Lorna's treatment on the book because while Bunn isn't responsible for the cover (to my knowledge), the cover does manage to get at the underlying themes of how she was treated on that book.



At least within his writing, Bunn was primarily a huge Magneto fan, with Havok the next one down out of the three characters. His run on X-Men Blue had tons of potential for good stories involving Lorna. When they had the Mojo storyline, instead of a flashback to Mutant Massacre, they could've used a flashback to the Genoshan genocide - something Lorna and Magneto BOTH shared as an experience. When Mojo had Lorna wearing the old Malice costume, she could've reacted with the disgust and possibly outrage you would expect from behind put in the skin of an entity that took over your body, instead of having Lorna act like it's just some silly strange clothes she's never seen before. When the base got attacked, Bunn had Lorna act surprised about a surprise attack just so Magneto could mansplain surprise attacks to her... as if someone who experienced and survived the worst surprise attack in mutant history, the Genoshan genocide, wouldn't be very well versed in it by then.

Not to mention how Lorna could have spent time with teen Jean and teen Iceman but didn't. Instead, there was one scene of her training teen Angel and the AU Wolverine character and that was it.

Right now, X-Men Red gives me a mix of the same vibes of what Bunn did on X-Men Blue, and getting sent into space as part of the Starjammers, with a little bit of "other green-haired woman that Marvel clearly respects more than Lorna" added in. And the Starjammers part severed her ties to Genosha and mutant rights. X-Men Red would be great if the writer cares about Lorna as her own character and actually wants to write her meaningfully. But if it would just be a repeat of past mistakes then it's better for her not to be there.

[jmc247]

I typically don't provide ideas for Marvel in that area because I am under the belief the relationship will never work as long as the people who want it to work imagine their dynamics through the lens of what they were when they didn't work. But, Eclaris really is the perfect case and point for what can work between Lorna and other characters including Havok in a platonic sense as well. Lorna doesn't have to be sleeping with someone or related to them to have a deep and conflicted relationship with them. Though she does when she is simply written around other characters as yes Bunn did with her.

Season two Elcaris I was very much convinced was a panicked response to the Disney take over where they tried to run away from their deep and dark political drama into something more of what they imagined as Disney friendly. Only they shot one of the few things that was working for their show in the groin in the process.

In terms of Lorna and Havok they were never more popular then when they were actually representing different viewpoints in the early 2000s after they broke up. But, Marvel writers in their infinite wisdom had to reconnect them romantically and very quickly it was back to crap nostalgia dynamics that kept both characters back. Lorna and Havok will now and again interact even when not romantically inclined and certainly have since 2017. The only time it is actually popular, and it hasn't been now is when they do present different worldviews. Forcing that through mind control or typical writers' tricks never really works.

[jwatson]

I have thoughts on how a Lorna and Havok relationship could theoretically work... but I never share them. Why? Because it's become really, really obvious over the past decade that Marvel cares way more about putting Havok on a pedestal, even if it involves mistreating Lorna to get there.

Perhaps not "even," but especially. We're talking about people blinded by nostalgia. Nostalgia is often cited as some lovely pie in the sky thing, but it has a darker more insidious side people don't talk about enough as a matter of nostalgia. Nostalgia can make sexism, racism, basically any ism seem like a wonderful trip down memory lane instead of a huge mistake of the past that needs to be corrected. Very often, people seduced by their own nostalgia are so beholden to their nostalgia that they absolutely refuse to question it. Refuse to see another, much better way of doing things. Because they don't want to move toward the future, they want to relive the past. Even when they tell themselves it's for the future, it's really just wanting to see more of the old. And they end up thinking that admitting to problems in their nostalgia is saying they, personally, are a terrible person for ever having experienced that nostalgia (when the reality is they're only a terrible person if they try to keep all that bad stuff intact for their nostalgia and ego).

I've been holding out. Because Marvel keeps holding out. If they're not going to do the right thing by Lorna, then I don't want them to be successful with any attempt at Havolaris. If people at Marvel refuse to give Lorna her due respect as her own character with meaningful history, then the Havolaris ship can die as people become more aware of how horribly that nostalgia trip source has actually been for Lorna and female characters in general. It's their choice.



If Brand wasn't there OR Lorna and Brand weren't visually depicted like clones, and I had a sense that the Magneto love of earlier issues would actually work in Lorna's favor instead of undermining her, AND Lorna would still be involved in mutant issues on Earth, then I'd agree. Right now, I don't think she should be on X-Men Red because of those three elements.

I regularly use this cover from X-Men Blue as a visual for Lorna's treatment on the book because while Bunn isn't responsible for the cover (to my knowledge), the cover does manage to get at the underlying themes of how she was treated on that book.



At least within his writing, Bunn was primarily a huge Magneto fan, with Havok the next one down out of the three characters. His run on X-Men Blue had tons of potential for good stories involving Lorna. When they had the Mojo storyline, instead of a flashback to Mutant Massacre, they could've used a flashback to the Genoshan genocide - something Lorna and Magneto BOTH shared as an experience. When Mojo had Lorna wearing the old Malice costume, she could've reacted with the disgust and possibly outrage you would expect from behind put in the skin of an entity that took over your body, instead of having Lorna act like it's just some silly strange clothes she's never seen before. When the base got attacked, Bunn had Lorna act surprised about a surprise attack just so Magneto could mansplain surprise attacks to her... as if someone who experienced and survived the worst surprise attack in mutant history, the Genoshan genocide, wouldn't be very well versed in it by then.

Not to mention how Lorna could have spent time with teen Jean and teen Iceman but didn't. Instead, there was one scene of her training teen Angel and the AU Wolverine character and that was it.

Right now, X-Men Red gives me a mix of the same vibes of what Bunn did on X-Men Blue, and getting sent into space as part of the Starjammers, with a little bit of "other green-haired woman that Marvel clearly respects more than Lorna" added in. And the Starjammers part severed her ties to Genosha and mutant rights. X-Men Red would be great if the writer cares about Lorna as her own character and actually wants to write her meaningfully. But if it would just be a repeat of past mistakes then it's better for her not to be there.

If your reading Ewing, legitimate challenge issued. One not based in bias but seeing actual growth for lorna.

[PolarIceFire]

https://twitter.com/79SemiFinalist/s...49898333114368

KELLY THOMPSON
@79SemiFinalist

Assuming a writer doesn't like a character just because YOU don't like the way they were written is such bullshit.

People should have their own opinions -- but stop projecting your opinion about "how things are" onto creators.

In my experience you're also almost always wrong.

"I don't like this book. This take on the character isn't for me."

THOSE are facts. You don't like it, it's not for you.

"Everyone hates this take. This writer hates the character & never wanted to write this book."

NOT facts. This is just a theory w no evidence to back it up.

[salarta]

Except evidence exists on multiple levels for people actually paying attention.

There's comments in interviews, tweets and other social media, or lack of them as compared to same with other characters. There's how a character is treated on panel relative to other characters - not whether or not you like the depiction, but whether the depiction is respectful for one but not the other, by giving more insight into how one character feels vs another. There's how much of a character's history is acknowledged, and how it's acknowledged, especially compared to same with other characters.

Not to say Kelly Thompson is wrong, because for what she's actually talking about, she's not. It's very common for fans to make broad statements off personal preference without having done any homework, both in terms of finding evidence and putting their critical thinking caps on. One of her examples is "Everyone hates this take," and anyone with any sense knows it's impossible for everyone to hate a take. I've seen people defend some of the most blatantly sexist writing because they were hardcore fans of the company or writer behind it. The unspoken corollary of "not everyone hates something" is "there's always someone that loves something, no matter how bad it is."

In sum, it's fair to say that a fan not liking something doesn't mean the writer hates the character, but suggesting a fan can't be right about a writer treating a character poorly is also bullshit.

Oh. And by the way. You don't have to outright hate a character to treat them poorly. Collateral damage during a quest to promote other characters you like more is a thing.

[jmc247]

On the subject of Al Ewing he could do amazing by Lorna or he could do poorly by Lorna its impossible to know at this stage. Being a big Magneto fan doesn't really mean anything in that regard. Bunn's core problem with Lorna was not that he was a fan of Magneto. It was that he was too invested in 80s/90s nostalgia and didn't want to write a post Genosha Lorna. He threw crumbs fans way at times such as her training the new mutants which was a fun moment. But, ultimately, he chose to write Lorna within the confines of what the character was in 90s X-Factor.

Bunn's Lorna was ultimately average for Lorna depictions of the past fifteen years. It was not terrible, but it was also not something I would recommend. Duggan wrote her far less then Bunn, but ultimately it was a far stronger depiction as he was able to see outside the 90s nostalgia prison that trapped Lorna. Duggan had a mostly good depiction of Lorna.

Williams Lorna is an interesting case where if you take away X-Factor #4 and Trial of Magneto #1 I would rate her run as average for Lorna of the past decade. Those two issues though really dragged her run down further. It is hard because I think she often had good intentions, but she at times had Lorna so over emote in ways I couldn't buy and tried to redefine her relationship with Magneto as something it frankly never was. Lorna had two or three moments I liked in Williams run, but they didn't balance the scales.

Hickman didn't have a proper run with Lorna though he wrote her in three issues. His Lorna which is still homaged in over a half dozen tweets when Judgement Day #1 came out actually saw beyond the 90s with Lorna and I would regard as above average. However, we didn't really get to know his Lorna well other than she was confident and deeply skeptical of humanity. She had the feel of a character not among Xavier's followers I will put it that way. I defended Hickman from attacks that his Lorna was not sufficient, but the argument that he needed to go into why she was skeptical and fearful of humanity I completely agree with.

I am going to be blunt writers that can see beyond the 1990s have alot of fun with the character. DnA wrote a strong Lorna in her scenes with Crystal because they saw her as a 'rogue princess' in their words and her interactions with Crystal were textbook early 2000s Lorna. The same can be said of Marjorie Liu's Lorna. One can feel the writer had fun with her and she said as much at the time. But, that was very much not a 1990s Lorna.

Even Austen, who I would still regard as the best Lorna writer of the past twenty years, when he started writing Lorna in his first scripts started writing a 90s X-Factor Lorna before reading New X-Men 132 and realizing that mass genocide would change her worldview.

I believe its fans job to help writers, help themselves. Going too far into being a cheerleader for a run doesn't help a writer if there are real problems to be corrected. Being too harsh when its undeserved really doesn't help writers either. I was probably too soft on my criticism of Bunn's mistakes with Lorna early on in his run and then I became fed up and was probably too hard on his run at the end. It's hard to find a balance.

I do believe Marvel the past few years does deserve castigation for attempted to ignore and write over her living though a freeking genocide which was by far and away her best story arc. However, I believe in giving credit where credit is due. Duggan did pull Lorna out of the 1990s and managed to write a more modern Lorna even though she didn't have a real motivation beyond coffee. The lack of clear motivation connected to her history was one of the few things keeping Duggan's Lorna from being a great run with her. That and not enough of her in the second half of the run.

[salarta]

I feel like saying a few things, so I will.

I found out Lorna existed in 2009, by stumbling on her wikia entry. That's where my fandom started, and that was my gateway into Marvel as a whole. In that time, I've paid attention to how things have changed and not changed with Lorna and Marvel.

I would say Jeff Parker's Exiles was my first introduction to a version of her. I really liked that version, I highly recommend it, but I don't think it's one that should be copied wholesale on 616 Lorna. Elements of it, yes, but not the entirety - because the entirety of that version was too young and lacked the history 616 Lorna has.

I read a bit of her time in space. I didn't care for it. And that was with the writer benefit of having just discovered her. I was annoyed by Lorna being tossed into space limbo at the time, so when Mike Carey planned to bring her back, I read issues from before that arc. I was glad to see Lorna and Magneto interacting, with her parentage confirmed. Didn't really care for her being mind-controlled, but appreciated that she seemed the most resilient of the bunch in spite of it.

I was very cross about Lorna ending up on X-Factor once they returned from space. I think I was too harsh in retrospect, as I expected it to mean Lorna getting regressed back to the 90s by the writer who wrote her back then. Though I also don't think my complaints were without merit. She did end up with that writer trying to redefine her relationship with her father as being one she didn't want, at a time when a certain editor at Marvel was busy using the books he edited to pretend Lorna wasn't Magneto's daughter. Was glad Lorna got her origin story told, but was also annoyed that Marvel kept it largely quiet, like they didn't think Lorna deserved it after over 40 years without an origin story. They could've taken that opportunity to really put the word out and show they were moving forward as a company.

Announcement of All-New X-Factor had me over the moon. I remember raving incessantly about how it would be Lorna finally leading her own team, something I remember at the time saying I didn't think we had to get and was going above and beyond in a good way. Unfortunately, it got undermined by several things. Marvel not really supporting it in general. What seemed to be an attitude of those involved in the book that Lorna should be thrown under a bus (both as a leader and as a character) for the sake of promoting Gambit. Not putting Pietro on covers when Days of Future Past was in theaters. There was a positive turn-around with ANXF #7, but not in time to save the book. Not to mention Marvel doing nothing to promote Lorna and Wanda finally spending time together in ANXF #14, but putting out a variant cover for Axis months ahead that made Enchantress look like Lorna next to Wanda. Right before retconning the twins in Axis, and Axis once again acting like Lorna isn't Magneto's daughter. Aside from the BS of excluding Lorna from a story heavily involving Genosha.

Then we got Secret Wars, which was great in putting more of a spotlight on her with different versions that included an excellent AU portrayal in Secret Wars: House of M, but that also lost its kudos with Marvel then throwing Lorna into limbo for two years. At the time of Secret Wars, I was also extremely positive about Bunn and what Bunn might do with her. I even read the entire Magneto solo under the thinking that knowing Magneto through it could give me insight into how Lorna and him could interact.

X-Men Blue happened, that's when I started seeing more of a downward trend of Marvel being even more dismissive of her worth. That's also when Marvel started throwing in efforts to define her primarily as Havok's ex again.

Then we reached Krakoa era, which was a little better in the beginning but still missed important beats and excluded her from any notion of value to the broader X-Men mythos. That flowed into the more recent X-Factor which... yeah. I'd say was the worst 616 treatment of her since I discovered her existence. Finally, we got Lorna on Duggan's X-Men, which was the best writing she's had in the last decade but still fell short of doing anything meaningful enough for her to move forward. Now, at this moment, we're at the point in Marvel's typical pattern with her where they screw her over big time. In 2014, it was lowkey time with Wanda and Pietro on ANXF right before the Axis retcon. In 2015, it was the Secret Wars spotlight before limbo. In 2017, it was a cover homage to X-Men #50 before what really happened on X-Men Blue. Lorna just wrapped up half a year on X-Men, so based on what Marvel's doing right now, my prediction is they're going to exclude her from the aftermath of this event and things tied to Genosha.

I'd like to be wrong on that score. And if I am, great. I'd love to see real progress. But when you get your hopes up repeatedly, only to have them dashed repeatedly, you learn to stop getting your hopes up and prepare for what has become a regular pattern. That doesn't mean you stop hoping for better. It just means you stop putting all your faith in Lucy holding the football.

[Magnetic]

I saw Cold Comfort episode on Disney+ and Lorna look so pretty in flashback. I laugh so hard when she screams HAVOK and flew over to help him. I want slap her face by the end.

[jmc247]

I saw Cold Comfort episode on Disney+ and Lorna look so pretty in flashback. I laugh so hard when she screams HAVOK and flew over to help him. I want slap her face by the end.

They have had a thing against her classic wear and skull wearing the past few years, but it was good to see her in her actual first costume in the flashback.



But, yes the overall TAS depiction heavily reminded me of TAS Jean who was constantly fainting/falling over and yelling SCOTT.

Anyway art.



Link



Link

[Will Evans]

If not Havok, who would you want Lorna to hook up with in the next few years?

Assuming “no one” is not an option.

[salarta]

If not Havok, who would you want Lorna to hook up with in the next few years?

Assuming “no one” is not an option.

If not no one, then Jean Grey is my preference, followed by Emma Frost. Cyclops is an option as long as Havok doesn't come up, like at all, which I think would cause the forehead veins on people at Marvel to pop so he's probably a non-starter.

There are various characters I know I wouldn't want Lorna to hook up with, too.

[Phoenixx9]

They have had a thing against her classic wear and skull wearing the past few years, but it was good to see her in her actual first costume in the flashback.



But, yes the overall TAS depiction heavily reminded me of TAS Jean who was constantly fainting/falling over and yelling SCOTT.

Anyway art.



Link

Lorna looks great in these 2 pics!

I love Lorna's OG costume with the golden accents.

If Lorna makes an appearance in XM '97, I hope she looks like she does here.

[UncannyLZ]

If not Havok, who would you want Lorna to hook up with in the next few years?

Assuming “no one” is not an option.

Neal Shaara aka Thunderbird III. He’s powerful, wants to be active and was even on the team that rescued Lorna after Genosha. He’s a flirt but I think it would be interesting to see him stop being one for Lorna. It would also give Gifted fans a comic version of Polaris x Eclipse to gush over.

[jmc247]

If not Havok, who would you want Lorna to hook up with in the next few years?

Assuming “no one” is not an option.

Lorna and Abagail Brand?

Seriously, though, the name should be big enough to be memorable to even casual fans otherwise it will end up another Lorna/Random and no she never slept with Random, but it was a mild infatuation used to create tension with Havok long ago. Here are some of my thoughts about various prospects.

Exodus and Lorna: I could image ways it could work, but I am 95% sure Marvel would screw it up by turning it into a blog standard bad boy/good boy love triangle with Havok. Exodus would most likely become a more well-known version of 90s Random.

Scott and Lorna: They would turn it into Alex and Scott butting horns over her making it another case of it could be great, but they are certain to make it mostly about two brothers fighting.

Lorna and Jean: Not going to happen, but if Marvel is smart, they would play up the second gen students of Magneto and Xavier angle making them friends and ideological rivals. They played around with the idea vaguely, but very much have yet to committed to the concept.

Lorna and Emma: Again, not going to happen, but a Lorna and Emma team up for goal-oriented reasons would provide alot of storytelling opportunity if the writer decides to write Lorna as Lorna and not Jean lite.

Lorna and Wolverine: They had their moment and chance in Austen's run. Things were heading in that direction. Wolverine was still in his hate on Magneto for Fatal Attractions era and it would have been an interesting relationship. Its probably too late today as I can't see the same dynamics working. Logan today is closer to Magneto then to Lorna.

I once upon a time pondered Lorna dating a human like Doom or Tony Stark. I used to think it could work, but only after Lorna first got back in touch with mutant activism and went through a really dark phase for several years. Think Magneto and Lee Forrester which was a great ship for his rebuilding his ties with humanity arc. Lorna has the opposite problem right now of badly needing to rebuild her ties to mutant politics and activism.

Also, no character not under x-titles editorial for the foreseeable future. It would be very helpful if that character is someone the x-office respects at least as much as her ex.