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  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    When Marvel announced their listing of Omega Level Mutants recently, I thought all of these characters would be on it, but only 4 made the inclusion.
    That's still an issue to me, just one I haven't been as vocal about as I was previously for a number of reasons. Even if we ignore The Twelve, there's still source material in comics that says Lorna should be considered Omega based on the current rules and definitions for Omega and Magneto qualifying with them. If they're dead set on Lorna and characters in similar positions to hers not qualifying for Omega, then they need to refine their classification so that it makes actual sense. They should be refining it anyway for the same reason Marvel's ditched or revised some content that was once racist, sexist, etc over the decades. Nothing is perfect, everything needs work.

    It's not about having a fancy title that can be thrown around. It's about what it means for what roles Marvel thinks Lorna can have, what feats they think she's capable of doing, what development they will or won't respect and what development she can have, etc. It's an issue when a classification has the power to arbitrarily bar characters doing things they can and should be doing, or stifles imaginations that could've led to narrative gold if left to their own devices.
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  2. #92
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    That's still an issue to me, just one I haven't been as vocal about as I was previously for a number of reasons. Even if we ignore The Twelve, there's still source material in comics that says Lorna should be considered Omega based on the current rules and definitions for Omega and Magneto qualifying with them. If they're dead set on Lorna and characters in similar positions to hers not qualifying for Omega, then they need to refine their classification so that it makes actual sense. They should be refining it anyway for the same reason Marvel's ditched or revised some content that was once racist, sexist, etc over the decades. Nothing is perfect, everything needs work.

    It's not about having a fancy title that can be thrown around. It's about what it means for what roles Marvel thinks Lorna can have, what feats they think she's capable of doing, what development they will or won't respect and what development she can have, etc. It's an issue when a classification has the power to arbitrarily bar characters doing things they can and should be doing, or stifles imaginations that could've led to narrative gold if left to their own devices.
    Oh yes, I perfectly understand and I feel the same way. It is not about the name or title of "Omega", it is because Lorna has been shown and stated to be quite powerful.

    For instance, I love what Lorna did way back with Krakoa when the New X-Men were first formed, shooting him out of the atmosphere. A truly powerful feat. Lorna is indeed an Omega, but for some reason Marvel only wants Magneto to be considered in terms of Magnetic Powers.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Oh yes, I perfectly understand and I feel the same way. It is not about the name or title of "Omega", it is because Lorna has been shown and stated to be quite powerful.

    For instance, I love what Lorna did way back with Krakoa when the New X-Men were first formed, shooting him out of the atmosphere. A truly powerful feat. Lorna is indeed an Omega, but for some reason Marvel only wants Magneto to be considered in terms of Magnetic Powers.
    Lorna launching Krakoa in Giant-Size X-Men is actually a good example of how artificially limiting these classifications are. Because it's been completely ignored in the Krakoa era (vague off hand remarks that you have to know Lorna's history to pick up as a reference don't count).

    Look at Planet-Size X-Men. The goal of that story was to transfer Arakko to Mars. It would've been a perfect opportunity to provide an homage by having Lorna lift the island like she did in Giant-Size X-Men only this time without needing to be power boosted to do it. But it didn't happen. An opportunity for Lorna to do something that both is meaningful in current comics and harkens back to one of the positive writing moments in her history was passed on because Planet-Size X-Men was meant to be a showcase for any mutants deemed Omega. It's a definitive example of everything I've said about classification systems being bad and artificially holding characters back from being and doing what they should.

    Let me be clear, this isn't something against Jean. Jean deserved a powerful feat in the book to show her prowess with telekinesis because that's also part of her skill set, she's not just telepathy. But that fact also doesn't change the fact that Lorna could've played a meaningful role there that tied into her history, yet she was excluded for not being Omega. That said, you can't change the past, so IMO this could be turned into a new kind of opportunity by drawing parallels between Lorna and Jean since they've now both sent islands into space, thematically "opposite" islands at that.
    I can also be reached on Twitter and WordPress. Avatar by kahlart.

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  4. #94
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    How would you describe Polaris' character and how she's evolved over the years to someone who has never heard of her?

  5. #95
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post

    Let me be clear, this isn't something against Jean. Jean deserved a powerful feat in the book to show her prowess with telekinesis because that's also part of her skill set, she's not just telepathy. But that fact also doesn't change the fact that Lorna could've played a meaningful role there that tied into her history, yet she was excluded for not being Omega. That said, you can't change the past, so IMO this could be turned into a new kind of opportunity by drawing parallels betwut I wanteen Lorna and Jean since they've now both sent islands into space, thematically "opposite" islands at that.
    Yes, Jean deserved a powerful feat , but I wanted to see Lorna there with her, doing what they had Magneto doing. Instead, Lorna was not even present. Jean and Lorna could have even joked "everyone called us the weakest ones a few years ago, but look at what we did today." type of thing.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  6. #96
    Spectacular Member UncannyLZ's Avatar
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    Polaris is a former antagonist whoís become a superhero of the X-Men. The Genosha survivor and daughter of Magneto has similar mastery of magnetic powers and a pro-mutant attitude but would rather be enjoying her own life and protecting than attempting to take over. Donít mistake her chill attitude and defender spirit for weakness and piss her off because itíll be the last thing you do!

    Thatís how Iíd describe Lorna without going to all her backstory. What do you all think?

  7. #97
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Oh yes, I perfectly understand and I feel the same way. It is not about the name or title of "Omega", it is because Lorna has been shown and stated to be quite powerful.

    For instance, I love what Lorna did way back with Krakoa when the New X-Men were first formed, shooting him out of the atmosphere. A truly powerful feat. Lorna is indeed an Omega, but for some reason Marvel only wants Magneto to be considered in terms of Magnetic Powers.
    Personally I'd like to see Lorna display a much broader range of abilities with her magnetism than her father. It would differentiate the two, while giving her room to expand in her own space.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  8. #98
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Personally I'd like to see Lorna display a much broader range of abilities with her magnetism than her father. It would differentiate the two, while giving her room to expand in her own space.
    I think it was already stated by Marvel in early 90's that Lorna has a broader range of abilities than Magneto and can sense the world as magnetic patterns, something Magneto was not supposed to be able to do at that time. I don't know if he can do that now though.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  9. #99
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    I think it was already stated by Marvel in early 90's that Lorna has a broader range of abilities than Magneto and can sense the world as magnetic patterns, something Magneto was not supposed to be able to do at that time. I don't know if he can do that now though.
    That IS the other half of the equation, once it is established that Lorna can do it and Magneto can't, a hard line needs to be drawn by editorial - Magneto is not allowed to do it without a very compelling reason, and even if such a reason is given, it had better be damn hard for him to do.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by UncannyLZ View Post
    Polaris is a former antagonist who’s become a superhero of the X-Men. The Genosha survivor and daughter of Magneto has similar mastery of magnetic powers and a pro-mutant attitude but would rather be enjoying her own life and protecting than attempting to take over. Don’t mistake her chill attitude and defender spirit for weakness and piss her off because it’ll be the last thing you do!

    That’s how I’d describe Lorna without going to all her backstory. What do you all think?
    That was a valiant attempt at something difficult.

    I would agree with you something about her as the once power behind the throne and heir to Genosha and living through the destruction of the country and her desire to never have it happen again is a must for such a summary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    That IS the other half of the equation, once it is established that Lorna can do it and Magneto can't, a hard line needs to be drawn by editorial - Magneto is not allowed to do it without a very compelling reason, and even if such a reason is given, it had better be damn hard for him to do.
    Austen had Lorna open up a collapsed wormhole. Within a couple months Claremont had Magneto one up her by fully making a wormhole. In the 1990s it was Lorna playing power catch up to Magneto. They would give Magneto a new ability like iron and blood tricks and 5 years later Lorna would be doing it.

    The post Decimation era was the worst era for Lorna's skill. It declined massively into metal bending, energy blasts and extremely rarely shields or other things. That era continued on really for her until Duggan's run where he has moved her closer in terms of skill to the Austen era. Trying to cleanly demarcate Magneto and Lorna's abilities wouldn't have worked in a very hands-on editorial era and if it was ever tried would probably just end up with Lorna confined to metal bending and Magneto able to do all the advanced stuff.

    Having a trademark attack that defines her way of war helps though.

    Last edited by jmc247; 01-28-2022 at 10:45 AM.

  11. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    How would you describe Polaris' character and how she's evolved over the years to someone who has never heard of her?
    How I'd describe it depends a lot on where the focus is. Generally, I'd probably explain how she's evolved by also talking about writer/editor attitudes toward her. She started off as a character introduced as a game changer, with the X-Men dreading how powerful she might be with even a fraction of the power Magneto has. Unfortunately, prevailing attitudes of the 60s and 70s meant that in no time she was reduced to "supporting character for other characters the writer likes more, especially Havok." Writers mostly continued to treat her that way until Genosha.

    Once Genosha came up, and with Havok believed to be dead, some writers started to put some thought into her own perspective and what would make sense for her based on how she was created and what was happening in her life. To this end, the core concept of her as Magneto's dangerous daughter and heir to his legacy evolved for her to make it her own. From the trauma of the Genoshan genocide, she had a solid foundation to explore mutant rights and break out of the past poor treatment of her. She could actually hold opinions of her own and take actions not dictated by who she could be a useful supporting character for. It came to a head when she argued with Xavier in Genosha's ruins about pacifism vs militarism in the fight for mutant rights, which itself had its roots in Lorna in her introductory issues feeling torn between following her "bond of blood" with Magneto or joining the X-Men.

    Unfortunately, nostalgia for past treatment led to her being sent into space to be Havok's supporting character girlfriend again, then she was sent to X-Factor cause that's where she was in the 90s. To Peter David's credit, during this time he did tell Lorna's origin story (which should've been told decades earlier, but better late than never), and went on to have Lorna as team leader on All-New X-Factor as well as interacting with Pietro and Wanda on the book. So that was some progress even with some problems, but it was still Marvel ultimately segregating her to X-Factor while treating her like she wasn't "really" part of X-Men history. Then more stuff happened, but now we're finally getting to see Lorna on the main X-Men team again, interacting with peers she hasn't been able to interact with in decades (Jean, Cyclops) because she won the X-Men vote. The first issue of Devil's Reign also provided a good glimpse of Marvel starting to see who she is and where she can go as a character once again.

    Overall, I'd say Lorna is a character who probably didn't "fit in" before her powers were reactivated in her introductory issues. Learning of her mutanthood gave her a place she could feel like she belonged. Her initial personality was meant to be more feminist than typically seen at the time - e.g. insisting she's not "Bobby's girl" and agreeing with Cyclops that Havok and Iceman fighting over her was ignorant. Then writers for a few decades didn't have much (if any) respect for her, so their runs and depictions of her "personality" should be ignored. On Genosha, she started to feel a place she belonged once more. Its loss loosened a lot of her inhibitions while severely taxing her mentally and emotionally. Over time, she slipped back from being quite as risque but still has a bit of playful dark wit to her that she'll abandon if things get really serious. Lorna should care deeply about mutants and mutant rights, considering her deep connection to Genosha and the horror of its subsequent decimation, though Marvel's still a bit too stuck on nostalgia for past bad treatment to fully embrace Lorna realizing her true potential. Hopefully the good writing we've seen in X-Men and Devil's Reign leads to changes in that regard.
    I can also be reached on Twitter and WordPress. Avatar by kahlart.

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad!

    Gallery of Polaris commissions (without NSFW or minicomics)

  12. #102
    Spectacular Member UncannyLZ's Avatar
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    Polaris_Commission_for_LZ_JPEG.jpg

    I think Lorna’s X-Men costume would look better as shorts instead of a skirt if this is going to be her team look! I’d like a redesign but if this is it, a small tweak to shorts is a big improvement to me

  13. #103
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    That was a valiant attempt at something difficult.

    I would agree with you something about her as the once power behind the throne and heir to Genosha and living through the destruction of the country and her desire to never have it happen again is a must for such a summary.



    Austen had Lorna open up a collapsed wormhole. Within a couple months Claremont had Magneto one up her by fully making a wormhole. In the 1990s it was Lorna playing power catch up to Magneto. They would give Magneto a new ability like iron and blood tricks and 5 years later Lorna would be doing it.

    The post Decimation era was the worst era for Lorna's skill. It declined massively into metal bending, energy blasts and extremely rarely shields or other things. That era continued on really for her until Duggan's run where he has moved her closer in terms of skill to the Austen era. Trying to cleanly demarcate Magneto and Lorna's abilities wouldn't have worked in a very hands-on editorial era and if it was ever tried would probably just end up with Lorna confined to metal bending and Magneto able to do all the advanced stuff.

    Having a trademark attack that defines her way of war helps though.

    Outside of how bad Claremont is to certain characters, his other big negative trait as a writer is how poorly he works with others.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  14. #104
    @HotChillAllure PolarIceFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    How would you describe Polaris' character and how she's evolved over the years to someone who has never heard of her?
    There's been some great & highly accurate answers already given, which *miraculously* enough, are pretty much in line with how Marvel "officially" sees & pitched her as recently as this time last year:



    There's something else that I have that will be *very familiar* to many here, that have been around for some years. But a few other, fun things first, just because.


    A delightfully enthusiastic endorsement for a House of M series, from the critically acclaimed writer of Iceman's award-winning Marvel Voices: Pride short story “Early Thaw", featuring that much buzzed about Magneto retcon.

    X-Men Monday #122 – Anthony Oliveira Talks Wiccan and Hulkling, the House of M and More



    He's extremely intelligent & talented AND is a lifelong X-fan, from the 90's forward, just like a lot of us. He'd be a good addition and we'd be lucky to have him, I feel very strongly about this. He was my other pick alongside Gillen, to join the X-office, so I'm still holding out hope.

    Lastly, Marvel's Jewish characters:



    Do you see a surprise, or 2? ;D
    Last edited by PolarIceFire; 01-28-2022 at 07:30 PM.

  15. #105
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolarIceFire View Post
    There's been some great & highly accurate answers already given, which *miraculously* enough, are pretty much in line with how Marvel "officially" sees & pitched her as recently as this time last year:



    There's something else that I have that will be *very familiar* to many here, that have been around for some years. But a few other, fun things first, just because.


    A delightfully enthusiastic endorsement for a House of M series, from the critically acclaimed writer of Iceman's award-winning Marvel Voices: Pride short story “Early Thaw", featuring that much buzzed about Magneto retcon.

    X-Men Monday #122 – Anthony Oliveira Talks Wiccan and Hulkling, the House of M and More



    He's extremely intelligent & talented AND is a lifelong X-fan, from the 90's forward, just like a lot of us. He'd be a good addition and we'd be lucky to have him, I feel very strongly about this. He was my other pick alongside Gillen, to join the X-office, so I'm still holding out hope.

    Lastly, Marvel's Jewish characters:



    Do you see a surprise, or 2? ;D
    Iceman's the biggest. Given how bigoted his father is, I always assumed he grew up a WASP. Next would actually be Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. I know thier father is Jewish, but I always thought Jewish tradition traced things through the mother rather than the father, and Wanda, at least for a while, emphasized Roma heritage.
    Last edited by Gray Lensman; 01-28-2022 at 07:42 PM.
    Dark does not mean deep.

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