Shang-Chi Appreciation 2022

[Bolo]

I think that my problem with the MCU version and the new comics, they want to make Shang Chi too zen and too "wu xia" and magical, I think the mix Bruce/James Bond was more original, the character was supposed to be less "comics" but he was imho far passionate, more nervous, more complicated; I think he worked way better like that, I have read recently this interview:

https://www.theringer.com/marvel-cin...ican-superhero

writer Gene Luen Yang (American Born Chinese and DC’s Superman Smashes the Klan). While the most blatantly problematic depictions of Asians were filtered out of the pages of Marvel’s comics long ago, Yang was still tasked with modernizing a character who had long been hidden behind the capes of his contemporaries. “When I signed up to do Shang-Chi as the writer, I went back and I read a lot of those [Master of Kung Fu] comics that I had avoided as a kid, and I realized that he functions really differently from what we think as the standard Marvel character,” says Yang. “I think Spider-Man is the prototypical Marvel superhero, and his appeal is, you’re supposed to identify with Spider-Man. ... But Shang-Chi is not like that. You’re not meant to identify with Shang-Chi. You’re meant to look at this weird ‘Chinaman’ doing all of these spectacular kung fu feats, but you’re not necessarily meant to empathize with him. That’s one of the things that Dike [Ruan] and I really wanted to fix.”

Honestly I'm shocked to read that, I think in the movie and in the comics today, he is just another young "cool" superhero and lack od subtility he has during his first years, he don't seem to be a martial master, for me it's a big problem, and I hope that they will do Shen Kuei like he was in the first comics, I don't see them less relatable, simply more adult and maybe more in their own mind, I really miss the self-reflexion from Shang Chi, how he tried to always been better, fight his own passion etc...

I don't have seen the movie, but it's clear that the sequel will give to Shang more powers to explore the rings, Cretton love Dragon Ball and I think that the inspiration he will use for his future work.

Like you Tien Long, it's what I like about the HBO warrior, it's simply more "Bruce Lee", more violent like Gulacy art; simply more martial:

https://coffeefortwo.files.wordpress...hang-chi-2.png

I can understand they want to give Shang Chi more powers, to be more superhero for the first asian lead movie, but I hope they will give to Shen Kuei all the martial arts HK movies the character need, all the first comics vibe, there are something I would like to see....pure martial arts vs a robot for example, it's for that I like the Captain America and Black Widow movies, that what I wanted to see for Shang Chi, the fights is these movies are better imho, these in Shang Chi are cool but too "zen", less direct (for Iron Fist that would have been perfect).

[phonogram12]

As a fan of HBO Max's Warrior, I really love the fights there. It's Kung Fu action, but done brutally. Check out this fight between the main protagonist Ah Sahm and his antagonist Leary:



Bloody and brutal, right? This is what I'd like to see from Shang-Chi. We've seen Shang calm, collected, and centered. What happens when he's intense? Not angry, mind you. Shang knows that anger is deceptive and makes a fighter sloppy. Rather, what happens when he's intense? Bloody, beaten, and pushed to the the limit, what does Shang do then?

That is what I want to see from Shang-Chi.

This is a great show (one of my favorites at the moment, actually), but Shang Chi is clearly going for a wider demo than Warrior, which has also featured violent hangings and graphic sex scenes. While, yes, I admittedly prefer Warrior, I completely understand why Cretton and Marvel made the decisions that they did.

As for the fight scenes, while I did think Shang Chi's were great, I just didn't think there were enough of them, lol.

[Tien Long]

This is a great show (one of my favorites at the moment, actually), but Shang Chi is clearly going for a wider demo than Warrior, which has also featured violent hangings and graphic sex scenes. While, yes, I admittedly prefer Warrior, I completely understand why Cretton and Marvel made the decisions that they did.

As for the fight scenes, while I did think Shang Chi's were great, I just didn't think there were enough of them, lol.

Ha, glad that you're liking Warrior. Been hearing rumors of Season 3 being in production. Jason Tobin's IG feed shared a photo here and there, so hopefully we'll see it come to fruition.

As for Warrior and Shang-Chi, I agree I wouldn't want the gratuitous sex and cursing part of Shang-Chi anything in the future. Still, the brutally? The intensity? That's what I'd like to see in Shang-Chi comics and movies. We've seen Shang very calm and centered. But never intense. Again, I'd like to see Shang a little bloodied, a little bruised up, a little battled damaged. That reinforces his toughness. And I'd like to see him more vicious with his skills. Arm breaks, shattered knees, neck cranks, eye gouges, that's what Shang can do. Because that's Kung Fu. And REAL Kung Fu can be very, very vicious.

I wouldn't want him to become the next Punisher mind you. But maybe he reaches that point where he has to maim the bad guy really badly.

And yes, the Shang-Chi movie should have had more fight scenes, preferably more hand-to-hand scenes where you could see the full techniques.

I think that my problem with the MCU version and the new comics, they want to make Shang Chi too zen and too "wu xia" and magical, I think the mix Bruce/James Bond was more original, the character was supposed to be less "comics" but he was imho far passionate, more nervous, more complicated; I think he worked way better like that, I have read recently this interview:

https://www.theringer.com/marvel-cin...ican-superhero

writer Gene Luen Yang (American Born Chinese and DC’s Superman Smashes the Klan). While the most blatantly problematic depictions of Asians were filtered out of the pages of Marvel’s comics long ago, Yang was still tasked with modernizing a character who had long been hidden behind the capes of his contemporaries. “When I signed up to do Shang-Chi as the writer, I went back and I read a lot of those [Master of Kung Fu] comics that I had avoided as a kid, and I realized that he functions really differently from what we think as the standard Marvel character,” says Yang. “I think Spider-Man is the prototypical Marvel superhero, and his appeal is, you’re supposed to identify with Spider-Man. ... But Shang-Chi is not like that. You’re not meant to identify with Shang-Chi. You’re meant to look at this weird ‘Chinaman’ doing all of these spectacular kung fu feats, but you’re not necessarily meant to empathize with him. That’s one of the things that Dike [Ruan] and I really wanted to fix.”

Honestly I'm shocked to read that, I think in the movie and in the comics today, he is just another young "cool" superhero and lack od subtility he has during his first years, he don't seem to be a martial master, for me it's a big problem, and I hope that they will do Shen Kuei like he was in the first comics, I don't see them less relatable, simply more adult and maybe more in their own mind, I really miss the self-reflexion from Shang Chi, how he tried to always been better, fight his own passion etc...

I don't have seen the movie, but it's clear that the sequel will give to Shang more powers to explore the rings, Cretton love Dragon Ball and I think that the inspiration he will use for his future work.

Like you Tien Long, it's what I like about the HBO warrior, it's simply more "Bruce Lee", more violent like Gulacy art; simply more martial:

https://coffeefortwo.files.wordpress...hang-chi-2.png

I can understand they want to give Shang Chi more powers, to be more superhero for the first asian lead movie, but I hope they will give to Shen Kuei all the martial arts HK movies the character need, all the first comics vibe, there are something I would like to see....pure martial arts vs a robot for example, it's for that I like the Captain America and Black Widow movies, that what I wanted to see for Shang Chi, the fights is these movies are better imho, these in Shang Chi are cool but too "zen", less direct (for Iron Fist that would have been perfect).

Thanks for the sentiments bro. Yes, I'd like to see Shang-Chi more martial and spy like as well. He was Bruce Lee's character from "Enter The Dragon" placed in the Marvel Universe. I'd like to see him in grim and gritty situations.

However, does him having the Ten Rings displace him from that street setting? I respectfully disagree with that. If Shang were to face a couple of Triad gang members on the streets of Hong Kong, he could still take them out with his skills. He'd only bring out those Ten Rings when the situation really calls for it, when he's facing Dr. Doom and Apocalypse. Or perhaps he could control the rings in much the same way as Wen Wu did in the movie during the gangster scene:



Just enough to make an impact.

As for Gene's comments, I can see where he's coming from. While there were character elements during the Moench run, Shang didn't have much of a personality. Reading those old issues over, I noticed that Shang is basically just the third person narrator. He describes a lot of situations, but rarely showed much depth. As Gene mentioned, a lot of what Shang did ventured into the spectacle. Look at the Chinese guy do some cool Kung Fu.

As for Shang going into the mystical and wuxia, I dig that. You can't do a Chinese fictional anything without using Triads, ghosts, gods, and magic. I see it as Shang delving into the richness that is Chinese culture, which could fit so perfectly with the Marvel Universe. And let's not forget that in the original Shang-Chi series, he was going off into booby trapped islands, space, fighting monsters, all of that.

[Bolo]

Honestly yes I think to have this rings is a way for the MCU to show that he is not just a kungfu guy, I mean you have yourself say that in this movie, he have barely any physical fight scenes, just a few punchs here and here, I think the movie istelf show the evolution of the character, specially the post credit scene,to something more fantasy.

For Gene comment, I'm agree to disagree, yes Shang was the classical kungfu character, but I think he was in deep and intimate situation who made him a very original character in the comics (his inner dialogue was awesome), like his relation with Leiko, I have barely see anything like that in this new comics, I find this new shang chi in this and in the MCU, far more cliche, he is now simply a young guy who love karakoe, without spiritual thought, without everything he was during his longest and best years, when he was basically Bruce Lee, I have read an interview when Cretton say he wanted to change this Bruce image because that have became the cliche of martial arts, yes but for what ? the cliche of young cool asian bro with no girlfriend like we have seen a thousand times ? His quotes:

“There’s a reason why we all love Bruce Lee and are fans of his, because he’s legitimately awesome,” Cretton says with a laugh. “But I think the only problem is there isn’t enough variety to iconic Asian actors in [American] cinema. And so, Bruce Lee, unfortunately, over time being the only icon, became a cliché and stereotype.”

Okay but put the taichi scenes are not the biggest cliche ?

For the fantasy elements, okay, and it was already present in the old comics, but the problem it's the degree, I'm sorry but now he barely fight with his hands in this new comics or in the movie, I mean we are very close to Dr Strange sometimes, for Iron Fist that work, imo not for Shang Chi who has his own identity, why change that ? I think a mix technology/magic like before would have worked better for him, to be more down to the earth.

[Sutekh]

As for Warrior and Shang-Chi, I agree I wouldn't want the gratuitous sex and cursing part of Shang-Chi anything in the future. Still, the brutally? The intensity? That's what I'd like to see in Shang-Chi comics and movies. We've seen Shang very calm and centered. But never intense. Again, I'd like to see Shang a little bloodied, a little bruised up, a little battled damaged. That reinforces his toughness. And I'd like to see him more vicious with his skills. Arm breaks, shattered knees, neck cranks, eye gouges, that's what Shang can do. Because that's Kung Fu. And REAL Kung Fu can be very, very vicious.

On the one hand, Shang's journey in the first movie seems to have been moving past his father's more brutal utilitarian 'closed fist' fighting techniques to the Ta Lo fighting style of 'open hand' fighting, redirecting foes aggression against them and throwing them off-balance (while maintaining one's own balance, grace and centered-ness).

On the other hand, it's also a story about family, and taking the best from both sides, so it would *totally* make sense for Shang to run into situations were his mother's style is not what is needed, and tapping into his father's more brutal direct / forceful / aggressive techniques becomes necessary. All things in balance, there is a time for peace and a time for war, and all that stuff.

[Tien Long]

Honestly yes I think to have this rings is a way for the MCU to show that he is not just a kungfu guy, I mean you have yourself say that in this movie, he have barely any physical fight scenes, just a few punchs here and here, I think the movie istelf show the evolution of the character, specially the post credit scene,to something more fantasy.

For the fantasy elements, okay, and it was already present in the old comics, but the problem it's the degree, I'm sorry but now he barely fight with his hands in this new comics or in the movie, I mean we are very close to Dr Strange sometimes, for Iron Fist that work, imo not for Shang Chi who has his own identity, why change that ? I think a mix technology/magic like before would have worked better for him, to be more down to the earth.

Very true. To clarify, if Shang-Chi uses the Ten Rings in the future, whether MCU or comic book, I'd want them to be used sparingly. Shang-Chi has to show that he can mainly use Kung Fu, empty hand or regular weapons, not mystical stuff. And I can see there are character spheres, areas which they occupy. You're right, Shang has an identity, a spy/street level, down to Earth one. That "games of deceit and death" is a cool aspect of the character which should be revisited more often.

Ultimately, we should expand the stories where Shang-Chi could operate. Don't forget the street level, but leave options open, like mystical or space. Spider-Man is ostensibly street level. But then he has adventures in space, the Savage Land, the Dark Dimension, and so on. That's what I'd like us to start to do with Shang-Chi.

For Gene comment, I'm agree to disagree, yes Shang was the classical kungfu character, but I think he was in deep and intimate situation who made him a very original character in the comics (his inner dialogue was awesome), like his relation with Leiko, I have barely see anything like that in this new comics, I find this new shang chi in this and in the MCU, far more cliche, he is now simply a young guy who love karakoe, without spiritual thought, without everything he was during his longest and best years, when he was basically Bruce Lee, I have read an interview when Cretton say he wanted to change this Bruce image because that have became the cliche of martial arts, yes but for what ? the cliche of young cool asian bro with no girlfriend like we have seen a thousand times ? His quotes:

“There’s a reason why we all love Bruce Lee and are fans of his, because he’s legitimately awesome,” Cretton says with a laugh. “But I think the only problem is there isn’t enough variety to iconic Asian actors in [American] cinema. And so, Bruce Lee, unfortunately, over time being the only icon, became a cliché and stereotype.”

Okay but put the taichi scenes are not the biggest cliche ?

An interesting idea here. Are we trading one cliche for another? I see this as adding layers to Shang-Chi. He's a martial artist yes, but he enjoys karaoke and a round of karaoke BBQ. I enjoy showing those latter aspects because the general public doesn't know how these things are a part of Asian and Asian-American culture.

What we have to see is authenticity. There is a cliche way of depicting a martial artist and an authentic one. The latter is joking with your shifu about how crazy things got in your office the day before and both of you laughing it off. There is an authentic way to show East Asian philosophy and religion. In my experience, some Buddhist monks are the most down to Earth people you will meet. A spiritual Kung Fu master doesn't have to be divorced from reality, floating on a cloud and quoting from The Dao De Jing or the Lotus Sutra. Rather, that person can act like a normal, everyday person. Just a bit healthier and happier .

That's what I'd like to see in Shang-Chi.

[Tien Long]

On the one hand, Shang's journey in the first movie seems to have been moving past his father's more brutal utilitarian 'closed fist' fighting techniques to the Ta Lo fighting style of 'open hand' fighting, redirecting foes aggression against them and throwing them off-balance (while maintaining one's own balance, grace and centered-ness).

On the other hand, it's also a story about family, and taking the best from both sides, so it would *totally* make sense for Shang to run into situations were his mother's style is not what is needed, and tapping into his father's more brutal direct / forceful / aggressive techniques becomes necessary. All things in balance, there is a time for peace and a time for war, and all that stuff.

Very true. The movie showed how Shang-Chi learned softer, more balanced aspects to the martial arts and life. Yet, there are times to be intense, times to be like Shang-Chi's father.

Still, that leads to questions of aggression, intensity, and peace. What is your definition of these things? I heard a Buddhist nun state that anger is a state of mind. So, individuals who seem quiet and reserved outside, but are seething and pissed off inside are truly angry. The opposite is true. You can roar like a lion. But if you are centered inside, you are still at peace. I liken it to Rocky from Rocky IV. He's bloodied and beaten, but he does not give up. He's focused. He's intense.

That's what I mean by Shang-Chi being intense, not angry. He can be bloodied and battle damaged, but dammit he will not give up.

It's not about conquering others. It's about moving forward.

[Tien Long]

An interesting clip from Accented Cinema I watched regarding when does an Asian inspired something become offensive. It's not about Shang-Chi per se, but touches on the character and the latest movie:



I like the criteria the maker uses. Is the work made out of genuine interest? What is the context? Maybe it's not progressive for today's standards, but hey it was progressive back then. And yeah, even if elements of it are problematic, the whole thing isn't problematic. You can enjoy it.

I think that sums up how we can still appreciate Shang-Chi.

[Tien Long]

Upcoming preview for Shang-Chi #9, coming out this Wednesday:

https://aiptcomics.com/2022/02/18/ma...w-shang-chi-9/

I like it. Marcus To has a very clean style. It's still dynamic as well. Furthermore, I'm appreciative of the underlying theme, that of generational and family trauma. Lots of families, especially Asian ones, have that.

Looking forward to the new arc.

[Bolo]

An interesting clip from Accented Cinema I watched regarding when does an Asian inspired something become offensive. It's not about Shang-Chi per se, but touches on the character and the latest movie:



I like the criteria the maker uses. Is the work made out of genuine interest? What is the context? Maybe it's not progressive for today's standards, but hey it was progressive back then. And yeah, even if elements of it are problematic, the whole thing isn't problematic. You can enjoy it.

I think that sums up how we can still appreciate Shang-Chi.

I don't have seen all the video, honestly I find that a little chaotic, the guy have a double standard, I'm sorry but tarantino is in another level in term of racism than all the others examples, I mean the guy seem to charge more Raya or Mulan than the depiction of Bruce Lee in once upon a time in Hollywood; imho the old Fu Manchu movies are way more respectable than this movie or kill bill, at least Fu Manchu is badass and real genius of evil, not a buffoons like asians are in tarantino movie.

I think what we can see like a racial debate, it's probably more simply how we have changed the depiction of a villain in movie or comics, to be honest in most of old movies, specially in action movies, villains are caricatural, see James Bond, you change Dr No races to asian, he will be another clone of Fu Manchu; I think that normal today to be more sensitive about the depictions of peoples, minorities or not, but I also think time to time, specially in comics or comicbook movie, that perfectly normal to show a genius villian without to censor the artistic works, time to time the most direct way is the best way to tell a story, and honestly Lo Pan is awesome.

Tien Long, thanks for your reply, I think for Shang Chi we can find a good balance between this new version, and the old more wise version, I think during his secret avengers days he was very cool; I don't know today I have the feeling to read an asian version of...Danny Rand ; I wouldn't be half surprised if the goal are to make a fusion between Iron Fist world and Shang Chi world, specially after to have read the last issue of Iron Fist (the monsters, the city look like alot of the ones from Shang Chi movie).

Maybe the spy style with the old castings (Black Jack Tarr, Leiko etc...) will be present with the tv show of his sister ? I hope so.

[Hypestyle]

what rogues from the 70s era of the books have been revisited?
Are there recurring rogues being developed now?

[Tien Long]

I don't have seen all the video, honestly I find that a little chaotic, the guy have a double standard, I'm sorry but tarantino is in another level in term of racism than all the others examples, I mean the guy seem to charge more Raya or Mulan than the depiction of Bruce Lee in once upon a time in Hollywood; imho the old Fu Manchu movies are way more respectable than this movie or kill bill, at least Fu Manchu is badass and real genius of evil, not a buffoons like asians are in tarantino movie.

I think what we can see like a racial debate, it's probably more simply how we have changed the depiction of a villain in movie or comics, to be honest in most of old movies, specially in action movies, villains are caricatural, see James Bond, you change Dr No races to asian, he will be another clone of Fu Manchu; I think that normal today to be more sensitive about the depictions of peoples, minorities or not, but I also think time to time, specially in comics or comicbook movie, that perfectly normal to show a genius villian without to censor the artistic works, time to time the most direct way is the best way to tell a story, and honestly Lo Pan is awesome.

Tien Long, thanks for your reply, I think for Shang Chi we can find a good balance between this new version, and the old more wise version, I think during his secret avengers days he was very cool; I don't know today I have the feeling to read an asian version of...Danny Rand ; I wouldn't be half surprised if the goal are to make a fusion between Iron Fist world and Shang Chi world, specially after to have read the last issue of Iron Fist (the monsters, the city look like alot of the ones from Shang Chi movie).

Maybe the spy style with the old castings (Black Jack Tarr, Leiko etc...) will be present with the tv show of his sister ? I hope so.

No problem Bolo. You always make me think. Yeah, hopefully we'll see more of those spy elements in the future. Lo Pan and the rest of "Big Trouble In Little China" is awesome as well. I tend to look at the fact that Jack Burton was really just the sidekick in that movie while the Asians were the main heroes.

[Tien Long]

what rogues from the 70s era of the books have been revisited?
Are there recurring rogues being developed now?

Unfortunately, none of the rogue villains from the old series have shown up. Razor Fist, Zaran, Shen Kui, Death Dealer, Midnight Sun, Ghost Maker, Tiger Claw, Shockwave, Pavanye, War-Yore, and more have not shown up.

The rogues developed now, like Lady Iron Fan, Red Dot, and Chieftain Xin, are wholly original. I especially like Chieftain Xin. He plays into the family dynamics that are a central part of Shang-Chi's character.

[Tien Long]

Anyone else read Shang-Chi #9 today? Gene Yuen Lang is keeping the momentum of this story fairly well. He's delving into family intrigue as Chieftain Xin continues to be at odds with Shang-Chi and his siblings. Lo and behold, we see that the family is larger than we originally believed. Gene leaves some room to explore in that regard.

Totally flipped out with the use of the Taotie beasts. The Chinese art historian in me couldn't help but smile. Such an ancient Chinese art design used in a Marvel book, incredible! And the using "taotie" to make beasts makes perfect sense. Check it out!:

https://www.britannica.com/art/taotie

As for the last pages, really? That place is still around? I thought it was decomissioned a long time ago.

Finally, the art was superb. Marcus To has a clean and dynamic style that really fits the character. Looking forward to the rest of the story!

[Bolo]

Very cool concept art with Deadpool and Proxima Midnight, the artist have confirmed that it was just fun test arts and that these two were never in the movie, but what I have found very interesting it's the beautiful young woman with Kathy and Shang Chi, do you think that could have been Leiko Wu ?:

https://www.andrewkimart.com/#/new-gallery-1/


More concept arts, including ones about how the Mandarin have found the rings:

https://www.**********.com/jeremylove

Apparenly I can't link the website, it's art station.