Shang-Chi Appreciation 2022

[phonogram12]

I'm extremely shocked by Simu reaction, to have a problem with some elements from the past comics, that okay (and that true for every comics), but to ban them like that, I really don't understand him, I have seen nothing in these comics that deserve to have such extremist reaction; Simu shouldn't have taken this role if everything about the character is bad or deserve to change completly, the movie is already barely recognizable and have left imho the best part of the comics because of the so-called "racism" of these olds comics, in this case every old HK kungfu movies are racists; I'm shocked how little respect Simu but also Marvel have to the character but also the artists who have worked so hard in this title.

Also Simu about what he want for the sequel:



Honestly I'm not sure if he joke or not.

The old comics are a product of their time. Many products of their time have become problematic viewed through a 21st century lens. I recently heard on a podcast called Asian Enough Liu saying that while he realizes that the creators of the original character had no ill-intent, Shang-Chi's adventures at the time were still very much steeped in Yellow Peril tropes. While Liu did campaign for the role, I have no doubt what actually made him accept it was the fact that the film was made by Asian Americans not only to entertain in the trademark MCU fashion, but also genuinely portray the Asian American experience, one that so often gets neglected by just about everything from television to movies.

Is that different from the original comics? Yes. Am I a fan of old kung fu movies and spy films? Also yes (in fact, I just ordered a special edition blu ray of the classic Gordon Liu Shaw Brothers film Eight Diagram Pole Fighter today). Is the movie exactly the way I would've done it? No, not exactly (I wouldn't've included monsters and dragons, for example). But do I still think it's an improvement? Absolutely.

[Frontier]

To be honest one of my issues with the movie was that it felt like they were building up to it being more of a smaller-scale, martial arts, globe-trotting series like the actual MoKF series and the actual Shang-Chi comics...and then they basically turn it into an Iron Fist film with more Asian mysticism and magic.

[John Venus]

Always Shang Chi was a bit underpowered and overshadowed in the comics (until the recent comics) so I didn't mind the movie giving him a boost. I can understand them not wanting their first Asian American super hero seem under powered in comparison with everyone else. Also, if you're doing a faithful version of the Mandarin with magic rings and warlord past, how could you not include a dragon? Only problem was it wasn't Fing Fang Foom.

[Will Evans]

I'm extremely shocked by Simu reaction, to have a problem with some elements from the past comics, that okay (and that true for every comics), but to ban them like that, I really don't understand him, I have seen nothing in these comics that deserve to have such extremist reaction; Simu shouldn't have taken this role if everything about the character is bad or deserve to change completly, the movie is already barely recognizable and have left imho the best part of the comics because of the so-called "racism" of these olds comics, in this case every old HK kungfu movies are racists; I'm shocked how little respect Simu but also Marvel have to the character but also the artists who have worked so hard in this title.

Also Simu about what he want for the sequel:



Honestly I'm not sure if he joke or not.

Aside from Simu, what is the consensus amongst those old comics with Asian readers. Both Asian and Asian American?
Do they agree with Simu?

[Frontier]

Always Shang Chi was a bit underpowered and overshadowed in the comics (until the recent comics) so I didn't mind the movie giving him a boost. I can understand them not wanting their first Asian American super hero seem under powered in comparison with everyone else. Also, if you're doing a faithful version of the Mandarin with magic rings and warlord past, how could you not include a dragon? Only problem was it wasn't Fing Fang Foom.

To me the 10 Rings felt like they turned him into more of a generic Superhero (Oh look, he can jump farther! Oh look, he can punch harder! Oh look, he can force push basically) and I feel like people were hyped enough about quality martial arts fights that it didn't feel as necessary, but I feel like MCU has a scale problem in their movies versus the Disney+ shows.

[phonogram12]

Aside from Simu, what is the consensus amongst those old comics with Asian readers. Both Asian and Asian American?
Do they agree with Simu?

Well, I listen to a number of podcasts re Asian and Asian American issues and entertainment (such as They Call Us Bruce and the aforementioned Asian Enough) and in addition to having Liu, Cretton, Callaham (one of the writers of the movie), and the current series writer Yang as guests to promote their projects, the podcasters discuss the original source material as well, and none of them seem to be particularly big fans of it. Like I mentioned earlier, Liu did say that they probably had the best of intentions, but it still came off as problematic even back then. That said, when TCUB reviewed the movie, one of the guests did say they probably would've preferred a more grounded approach to the action similar to The Raid movies (although obviously less graphic) and left out the kaiju, which would've been my approach as well (and I have a feeling would've been an approach many fans of the original would've also preferred).

But like I said, I still think what they did was better than what a straight up adaptation of the original would've been.

[taozen]

To be honest one of my issues with the movie was that it felt like they were building up to it being more of a smaller-scale, martial arts, globe-trotting series like the actual MoKF series and the actual Shang-Chi comics...and then they basically turn it into an Iron Fist film with more Asian mysticism and magic.

This right here! And they never mentioned he was a master of kung fu. My prediction is that the next film will be a Seven Golden City tournament with Shang being the rep of Ta Lo. I'm betting once Shang wins the tournament, he will be granted the title of "Master of Kung Fu" similar to Dr. Strange's Sorcerer Supreme title.

[Hypestyle]

at this point I hope that Marvel ratchets up Shang's appearances, both in continuing the ongoing series "season" as well as having mini series, guest appearances elsewhere. There's decades to make up for in lost time. After the original MOKF series ended in the early 80s, Shang's appearances were extremely sporadic for decades leading into recent years. Especially since Marvel corporate may run into licensing issues for future reprints in its dealings with the Sax Rohmer estate, there's likely an incentive to have as much newer material available for collections as possible.

[Tien Long]

The old comics are a product of their time. Many products of their time have become problematic viewed through a 21st century lens. I recently heard on a podcast called Asian Enough Liu saying that while he realizes that the creators of the original character had no ill-intent, Shang-Chi's adventures at the time were still very much steeped in Yellow Peril tropes. While Liu did campaign for the role, I have no doubt what actually made him accept it was the fact that the film was made by Asian Americans not only to entertain in the trademark MCU fashion, but also genuinely portray the Asian American experience, one that so often gets neglected by just about everything from television to movies.

Is that different from the original comics? Yes. Am I a fan of old kung fu movies and spy films? Also yes (in fact, I just ordered a special edition blu ray of the classic Gordon Liu Shaw Brothers film Eight Diagram Pole Fighter today). Is the movie exactly the way I would've done it? No, not exactly (I wouldn't've included monsters and dragons, for example). But do I still think it's an improvement? Absolutely.

Aside from Simu, what is the consensus amongst those old comics with Asian readers. Both Asian and Asian American?
Do they agree with Simu?

As an Asian-American, I still stand by what I mentioned previously, that the old MOKF series was a product of its time. I contextualize it that way. Before anything else, let me put my own perspectives and biases out there. Of course, discrimination and offensive chracterization of Asians and Asian-Americans offends me. To this day, I'm still pissed off at that ************ from Fox News Jesse Watters for his insensitive mockery of Asians several years back. (**** you Jesse Watters. You're a lousy piece of ****. You piece of ****.) At the same time, I was raised in a upper middle class community of predominantly white people who honestly never belittled, insulted, or discriminated against me. On the contrary they supported, accepted, and uplifted me. It's an upbringing many other Asian-Americans didn't have. And I acknowledge that privilege.

I say that because yes Shang-Chi's red pajama Kung Fu suit and yellow hued skin from the old comics make me wince. The depictions of China and Fu Manchu make me wince. Shang-Chi's stoic, impersonal, "noble savage" narration makes me wince. But they don't turn me away. Indeed, the positives stand out to me. Shang-Chi was the main character in that series. He had epic adventures with MI-6 agents and even disagreed with his MI-6 superiors. He beat up assassins, robots, monsters, Spider-Man, Man-Thing, and many other foes. He saved the world dozens of times. And he was an Asian man who had a romantic relationship, something that even today we don't see enough in American media. Now, Gene's new series is certainly an improvement, but many of the good qualities from the previous series have shown up in the modern one.

So, I sympathize with Simu Liu. Maybe signing those old comics would in some way contribute to those stereotypes and systems that have held down Asians in the West for centuries. But at the same time, if I was in Simu Liu's place, I would sign those old comics. Because my signature would be recognizing the accomplishments, not perpetuating the discrimination.

at this point I hope that Marvel ratchets up Shang's appearances, both in continuing the ongoing series "season" as well as having mini series, guest appearances elsewhere. There's decades to make up for in lost time. After the original MOKF series ended in the early 80s, Shang's appearances were extremely sporadic for decades leading into recent years. Especially since Marvel corporate may run into licensing issues for future reprints in its dealings with the Sax Rohmer estate, there's likely an incentive to have as much newer material available for collections as possible.

Absolutely, I'd hope to see more Shang-Chi in the future. Said it before, I want to see Shang become more of a main player in the Marvel Universe or at least in more corners of it. You see Spider-Man fighting street crime in Manhattan in one story. Then he's off to the Dark Dimension in another fighting Dormmamu. Or the Savage Land against the High Evoluntionary. Or the Kree Empire against the Supreme Intelligence. Or the Negative Zone against Annihilus. Or Latveria against Dr. Doom. That's what I want to see with Shang. Hell yeah, I could see Shang standing face to face against Dr. Doom. That would be cool.

[Tien Long]

Ha, looks like Shang-Chi is getting a new relaunch in July. And again it looks as though someone has been reading this message board thread. The link to the full article is here: https://www.gamesradar.com/shang-chi...e-ten-rings-1/

Here are some highlights:

Marvel's Shang-Chi ongoing title will come to a surprise end with May's Shang-Chi #12 … just before relaunching almost right away in July as Shang-Chi and the Ten Rings #1, which takes the place of the previously solicited Shang-Chi #13.

Why the seemingly innocuous change? It all comes down to the addition of a new, more MCU-inspired version of the fabled Ten Rings that will come to Marvel Comics in Shang-Chi #12, which, according to Marvel's announcement of the relaunch, "have power that rivals the Infinity Gems." And that power has been fully assembled in Shang-Chi's hands.

Now, in May, a new version of the Ten Rings based on the MCU version will become Shang-Chi's greatest weapon - but that level of power will come with a new level of threats as Shang-Chi faces "every bounty hunter, assassin, and evil syndicate in the Marvel Universe" including "everyone from Hydra to the Hand."

Shang-Chi and the Ten Rings #1 will maintain the core creative team of the current iteration of the ongoing title, writer Gene Luen Yang and artist Marcus To - meaning that really all that's changing is the title and numbering, with a new emphasis on the Ten Rings as a key part of the series.

"It's been such a joy to work with Marcus To over the last couple of months. He's a brilliant artist. His characters are vibrant and full of energy, and he's so good at fight choreography!" Yang states in the announcement. "We're all really excited about the new #1! And about bringing in ten of the most powerful items ever into the Marvel Universe!"

To himself adds that the change will also ramp up the level of action and intrigue in Shang-Chi's adventures - especially the high-energy martial arts combat that defines Shang-Chi's legacy in the Marvel Universe.

"Gene and I are gearing up to give the fans one hell of an action-packed book," To states. "Shang-Chi is the greatest hand-to-hand combatant in the Marvel Universe, and we're gonna show it in this story."

Nice. So Shang is leveling up with these new Ten Rings. Personally, I still hope there is a connection with the comic Mandarin's rings. A power to rival the Infinity Gems though? We don't want Shang to be too OP here, y'know. If it is tastefully done, I'm good with that.

Of course I was intrigued with this:

Now, in May, a new version of the Ten Rings based on the MCU version will become Shang-Chi's greatest weapon - but that level of power will come with a new level of threats as Shang-Chi faces "every bounty hunter, assassin, and evil syndicate in the Marvel Universe" including "everyone from Hydra to the Hand."

Seriously, how many times have I said this? That there should be a story where Shang-Chi faces off against every bounty hunter, assassin, mercenary, tough guy, and psycho in the Marvel Universe...and then beat them all? I'm excited with the match up's here. Taskmaster, Bullseye, Lady Bullseye, Deadpool, Mr. X, Zaran, Nuke, Crossbones, Killmonger, Batroc, all of them and more. Maybe all of them will fight Shang-Chi. And we finally see if Shang can live up to his reputation as being one of the best fighters in the Marvel Universe.

[Bolo]

@Phonogram12; I'm happy to learn that Simu don't have a "grudge" against the original artists; for the improvement from the movie, I don't agree, have you some examples ? yes Shang is more human, he love the karaoke etc..., but I have seen nothing that I have considered a progress, I think the Mandarin is better like a cruel super vilain because that put Shang Chi is a very difficult position.

@Frontier, yeah I have already said that I think, but imo, Marvel have probably adapted their script for an evantual Iron Fist movie (we know that Feige loved the Immortal Iron Fist run) to the ones from Shang Chi, honestly like John Venus have already said, for the first asian lead superhero, they have probably tought that a spy martial arts story was not enough, see for example the post credit scene, I think it's very clear that they want something more fantasy/space oriented.

@John Venus I don't think it's the Dragons etc...the problem, like you say the Mandarin is here so that normal, I think they have pushed the thing too far, they don't have tried to find a balance between these two worlds, for example imo they should have given more times to Death Dealers etc...(I say that but I don't have seen the movie), that frustating, because they have all the elements for what I have seen a perfect Shang Chi movie, but they have preferred to avoid that.

@Taozen, I could agree with that, Feige love Immortal Iron Fist so the idea of an tournament is a strong probability, but honestly the more I see these comments from the director, the actors etc...I have the feeling that would be simply an adventure movie where he will explore the origins of the rings and the Dragon race (I hope to see Fing Fang Foom if this name is not too racist), weirdly, I think that could be a better choice now, put Shang in more cosmic adventures, and the tv show about his sister to something closer to the comics.

@Tien Long, I'm not asian, I maybe don't see the problem like asian peoples have seen about the comics, but honestly I have never seen Shang like the "noble savage", just a noble man with elder values, more like Captain America with a more "exotic" vibe, what I like about him it's that everybody around him, and that includes his allies, are not really honest and him try to stay noble, maybe that make him too monk or too stoic but that something I like about the character, and like you say he is passionate, he have multiples girlfriends, a complicated romance etc...now Simu is young, maybe he see these comics like some relics from the past, I don't know, maybe it's not all about his decision (he have an agent, Marvel etc...); look sorry I have reply to multiples peoples, I'm a little confused; what I want for a Shang Chi movie; simply a Bruce Lee movie with big fx and fantastic elements.

Happy to learn that they will continue the comics, I'm not fan of the recent run, but I really like the fact they comeback with Hydra and the hand, something closer to the spy elements, for the powers of the Rings, everybody have probably noticed that, but technically, the rings MCU version are more less the bracelets he has in the comics, except with powers, I think he will be very powerful, in the movie his father have no deep knowledge about them, maybe not like the infinity gems, but something closer to the quasar/cap Marvel bands; I really would like to see Shang Chi fight his old foe, the kree experiment Midnight Sun.

Sorry for my long messages, and the replies a little chaotic, but I find the discussion extremely interesting.

[Digifiend]

Bolo, you know you can quote people, right? The bottom of each post has Reply, Reply with Quote, and a little symbol that means Multi-Quote.

[Frontier]

Well, I listen to a number of podcasts re Asian and Asian American issues and entertainment (such as They Call Us Bruce and the aforementioned Asian Enough) and in addition to having Liu, Cretton, Callaham (one of the writers of the movie), and the current series writer Yang as guests to promote their projects, the podcasters discuss the original source material as well, and none of them seem to be particularly big fans of it. Like I mentioned earlier, Liu did say that they probably had the best of intentions, but it still came off as problematic even back then. That said, when TCUB reviewed the movie, one of the guests did say they probably would've preferred a more grounded approach to the action similar to The Raid movies (although obviously less graphic) and left out the kaiju, which would've been my approach as well (and I have a feeling would've been an approach many fans of the original would've also preferred).

But like I said, I still think what they did was better than what a straight up adaptation of the original would've been.

The kaiju definitely took me out of it. I just don't think the climax needed it.

This right here! And they never mentioned he was a master of kung fu. My prediction is that the next film will be a Seven Golden City tournament with Shang being the rep of Ta Lo. I'm betting once Shang wins the tournament, he will be granted the title of "Master of Kung Fu" similar to Dr. Strange's Sorcerer Supreme title.

I assume he'll be fighting the Makluans in the sequel.

Ha, looks like Shang-Chi is getting a new relaunch in July. And again it looks as though someone has been reading this message board thread. The link to the full article is here: https://www.gamesradar.com/shang-chi...e-ten-rings-1/

Here are some highlights:





Nice. So Shang is leveling up with these new Ten Rings. Personally, I still hope there is a connection with the comic Mandarin's rings. A power to rival the Infinity Gems though? We don't want Shang to be too OP here, y'know. If it is tastefully done, I'm good with that.

Of course I was intrigued with this:



Seriously, how many times have I said this? That there should be a story where Shang-Chi faces off against every bounty hunter, assassin, mercenary, tough guy, and psycho in the Marvel Universe...and then beat them all? I'm excited with the match up's here. Taskmaster, Bullseye, Lady Bullseye, Deadpool, Mr. X, Zaran, Nuke, Crossbones, Killmonger, Batroc, all of them and more. Maybe all of them will fight Shang-Chi. And we finally see if Shang can live up to his reputation as being one of the best fighters in the Marvel Universe.

I'm glad the current run is continuing one way or another and we're getting more Shang comics.

[mace11]

Okay i recently read some updated info on shang chi parents in comics.
I posted that his mother was bi-racial in the last Asian marvel characters appreciation thread.

Asian marvel characters-appreciation thread.
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ciation/page20

I was mistaken.

She was white.
His father is all east asian.
So was i right originally.

In recent comics he real found his biological mom who is all east asian.

Note- just because his father was named Fu Manchu,that does not mean he has the same history as the other one.
His name is now Zheng Zu in comics anyway and he was never any verison of Fu Manchu.
Of course that was changed awhile ago.

In some of his modern appearances, mention is made of his villainous father either in cryptic terms or using a variety of new names, due to Marvel no longer having the rights to Dr. Fu Manchu. In 2010's Secret Avengers #6–10, writer Ed Brubaker officially sidestepped the entire issue via a storyline where the Shadow Council resurrects a zombified version of Dr. Fu Manchu, only to discover that "Dr. Fu Manchu" was only an alias and that Shang-Chi's father real name was Zheng Zu, an ancient Chinese sorcerer who discovered the secret to immortality. Similarly, Shang-Chi's half sister Fah Lo Suee was later renamed Zheng Bao Yu in 2013's The Fearless Defenders #8[while Smith and Petrie have not appeared in any Marvel properties since the end of the Master of Kung Fu series in 1983.

His father in the canon marvel comic version was never part british,so i was originally right about that one also.
So shang-chi is not bi-racial in canon comics.
That has been retcon.

In 2020, Shang-Chi starred in a self-titled five issue miniseries written by American Born Chinese author Gene Luen Yang with art by Dike Ruan and Philip Tan. Initially set for a June 2020 release, the first issue was delayed to September due to the COVID-19 pandemic. Shang-Chi starred in a new ongoing series by Yang and Ruan in 2021, with Bernard To replacing Ruan by the 9th issue.Following the release of the Marvel Cinematic Universe film Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (2021),
Yang incorporated several concepts introduced in the movie into the Shang-Chi mythos, including the character Jiang Li as Shang-Chi's real mother, who was based off Shang-Chi's mother Ying Li, retconning Shang-Chi's white American mother and his mixed-race heritage;
the heavenly realm Ta Lo, which was previously introduced by writers Mark Gruenwald, Ralph Macchio and artist Keith Pollard in Thor #310 (1980); and the Ten Rings weapons.

Why is Shang-Chi losing his biracial heritage? self.CharacterRant
https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRa...cial_heritage/

[Bolo]

Bolo, you know you can quote people, right? The bottom of each post has Reply, Reply with Quote, and a little symbol that means Multi-Quote.

Yes I know, but I have tried to avoid to make my already very long text more longer, sorry if my replies are not clear because of that.

@Mace11 thank you for the links, about her mother, honestly it was never too important in the old comics, without the movie I doubt there would have been make a reference to his mother; I'm not a big fan of this change and I dislike Jiang Li character, that focus too much into the Shang Chi family and not simply the duel between him and his father (which was tragic enough like that), that also erase the parallel with Bruce Lee (who was 1/4 european ) so that don't really work for me , but I can understand they want to focus to asian/chinese celebration and don't make things too complicated.