Illyana Rasputina/Magik Appreciation 2022

[Fokken]

You continue this tendency to dismiss everything that doesn't fit your rather narrow-minded interpretations. This is the Marvel Universe, not Dungeons and Dragons. Illyana is the ruler of Limbo, which makes her a hell lord whether she wants to be or not. The story potential of what can be done with that exists independently of whether she wants the role, and her not wanting it could open up entirely new story angles. There is no reason whatsoever they can't have stories where she has to interact with the likes of Mephisto or Hela because she is their fellow hell-lord. There is no reason whatsoever they can't have stories that explore what it means to be ruler of Limbo and a mortal who holds the same status as a being like Mephisto.

Seriously, why come with this kind of tone into the first page of an appreciation thread?

This is what they do.

Their routine is: Find a thread. Gnash their teeth at folks. Repeat.

Don't feed the beast, babe. Best to starve them out.

[sunofdarkchild]

This is what they do.

Their routine is: Find a thread. Gnash their teeth at folks. Repeat.

Don't feed the beast, babe. Best to starve them out.

Yeah. Best to get back on track.

I hope to get my New Mutants sequel updated soon and then completed, and then I've got more story ideas I'd like to explore.

[Fokken]

That being said, the next New Mutants arc is Magik vs the Goblin Queen for the throne of Limbo. That's about as magical a story as you can get. 'The Labors of Magik' is a reference to the myth of the 12 Labors of Hercules. I have very high expectations for this story.

High Expectations: Same.
I'm very curious to see how all of this will go down. Illyana has such a complicated relationship with the many "hats" she wears associated with Limbo.
This is one of my favorite descriptors and one of the many excellent Illyana moments in the Krakoa era:


Landlord. Cop. Beyonce. That's hilarious.
And Phil Noto always does Illyana justice, and is one of the few artists who I feel renders the WWE meets Fredrick's of Hollywood I'm such a bad girl Bachalo outift well.

It'll be interesting to see where Illyana is emotionally when it comes to battling Pryor for Limbo. On the surface, the title-battle definitely feels like a "Limbo is better off with me than her" argument. I'm very curious to find out whether Pryor will approach this acquisition attempt as a favor? An offer? A deal? A negotiation? Or if it'll be the all too common "I want what you have and now we fight over it" narrative.
I have faith in Vita's writing -- especially after the work they did handling Scout, and Karma & her brother. They definitely operate with a strong grasp of nuance and creating empathy engines for complex characters that could otherwise be written as one note "good or evil"

How do folks feel about the jockification of Yana? Does anyone else read her as such? Illyana's always been tough, but I feel her physicality has definitely leaned into "brawler". Like, I imagine if there is a gym on Krakoa, she's becoming a gym rat and working out with Jimmy a bunch.

[sunofdarkchild]

High Expectations: Same.
I'm very curious to see how all of this will go down. Illyana has such a complicated relationship with the many "hats" she wears associated with Limbo.
This is one of my favorite descriptors and one of the many excellent Illyana moments in the Krakoa era:


Landlord. Cop. Beyonce. That's hilarious.
And Phil Noto always does Illyana justice, and is one of the few artists who I feel renders the WWE meets Fredrick's of Hollywood I'm such a bad girl Bachalo outift well.

It'll be interesting to see where Illyana is emotionally when it comes to battling Pryor for Limbo. On the surface, the title-battle definitely feels like a "Limbo is better off with me than her" argument. I'm very curious to find out whether Pryor will approach this acquisition attempt as a favor? An offer? A deal? A negotiation? Or if it'll be the all too common "I want what you have and now we fight over it" narrative.
I have faith in Vita's writing -- especially after the work they did handling Scout, and Karma & her brother. They definitely operate with a strong grasp of nuance and creating empathy engines for complex characters that could otherwise be written as one note "good or evil"

How do folks feel about the jockification of Yana? Does anyone else read her as such? Illyana's always been tough, but I feel her physicality has definitely leaned into "brawler". Like, I imagine if there is a gym on Krakoa, she's becoming a gym rat and working out with Jimmy a bunch.

I've been against the Bachalo costume and design since day 1. Going back to how she was in the 80s, she was extremely fit, but you wouldn't have any idea just how fit she was just by looking for her. After 2 years of doing nothing but running and combat training she was pretty much the equal of someone who was twice her size and had the physical capabilities of a tiger. She didn't need to be buff or overly tall since she had the stamina and training, and she didn't need to be tall or have big muscles to have an intimidating presence. At first glance you wouldn't think she could mess you up, until she glared at you or started to attack. Bachalo giving her a physique more like her brother's and a costume designed for the sole purpose of showing off as much of those muscles and skin as possible has always been something I disliked.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem with her current 'big man on campus' attitude. She's reached a point where she's finally comfortable in her own skin and not hating herself and holding back her feelings all the time. She knows what she's capable of and how easily she could wreck most everyone else, and she's comfortable with it and with showing it. I only think she's a brawler when she's forced to use the giant anime sword Bachalo gave her. A weapon of that size is only good for brawling. But when she's allowed to use the more traditionally-designed soul sword she can use more technique and finesse. I think both her sparring match with Raza and her training with Doug show this pretty well. I'm trying to recall if there's been a time recently where she was drawn with the giant Bachalo sword instead and outside of Curse of the Man-Thing I can't think of one, and she didn't use the sword at all in that story.

[Fokken]

^^^ I'm very much in favor of the restoration of the Soulsword's size to that of a non-Anime-sword.

I too appreciate the confidence boost she's displayed. 'Big Man on Campus' is an excellent descriptor. haha.

Speaking again to her physicality: I am definitely into the "deadly savage in a small package" vibe more than the amazon look she had briefly under Kris Anka. The height boost and build broadening wasn't my jam -- and that's not to say I disapprove of characters getting those kinds of aesthetic changes, but it just isn't my preference for Illyana. The size thing also applies to her sword. I appreciate the traditional sword size over the surfboard because its a fun visual that this seemingly demure blond can flip the switch and cut a bitch. The way Noto draws her physique, I'm reminded of professional surfers, rather than say, Olympic gymnasts.

[sunofdarkchild]

These discussions about characters' appearances tend to go the same no matter which character is being discussed. I've seen a few discussions about Batman in which seemingly everyone agrees that they prefer the 70s slender athlete Batman to the 2000s stocky body-builder Batman.

[WallStreeter]

High Expectations: Same.
I'm very curious to see how all of this will go down. Illyana has such a complicated relationship with the many "hats" she wears associated with Limbo.
This is one of my favorite descriptors and one of the many excellent Illyana moments in the Krakoa era:


Landlord. Cop. Beyonce. That's hilarious.
And Phil Noto always does Illyana justice, and is one of the few artists who I feel renders the WWE meets Fredrick's of Hollywood I'm such a bad girl Bachalo outift well.

It'll be interesting to see where Illyana is emotionally when it comes to battling Pryor for Limbo. On the surface, the title-battle definitely feels like a "Limbo is better off with me than her" argument. I'm very curious to find out whether Pryor will approach this acquisition attempt as a favor? An offer? A deal? A negotiation? Or if it'll be the all too common "I want what you have and now we fight over it" narrative.
I have faith in Vita's writing -- especially after the work they did handling Scout, and Karma & her brother. They definitely operate with a strong grasp of nuance and creating empathy engines for complex characters that could otherwise be written as one note "good or evil"

How do folks feel about the jockification of Yana? Does anyone else read her as such? Illyana's always been tough, but I feel her physicality has definitely leaned into "brawler". Like, I imagine if there is a gym on Krakoa, she's becoming a gym rat and working out with Jimmy a bunch.

Sym and Nastirh were only able to get to Earth to corrupt Madelyne because Magik was losing control of herself and Limbo. I’m sure that Maddie will throw that in her face.

Really, I would say Magik really gained control of herself after killing Belasco, and getting back the missing 60 percent of her soul. Those twins really should have happened in New Mutants and had happened, there would not even have been a Goblin Queen

[sunofdarkchild]

If I could go back in time and change the original Inferno, N'Astirh would never have existed. It would have been revealed that Belasco had been manipulating things for a long time to break Illyana and was ready to make his move. Belasco sent S'ym to attack the mansion knowing S'ym had no chance of winning because he intended for S'ym to act as Illyana's servant, but he remained loyal to Belasco the entire time. Belasco was the one who allowed Magus into Limbo with the orders that S'ym was to use the transmode virus to rebel, putting Illyana in a position where she would increasingly question her decision to show mercy. That story would follow the plot and themes of Illyana's story up until that point a million times better than the crap which was Simonsen's New Mutants run and actually bring about a sense of closure when she sacrificed herself to stop Belasco, refusing up until her dying breath to become like him. There'd be no need to bring her back to life just to fix the problems with her exit and her story would actually be complete. It will always be mind-boggling to me that Belasco's place in the story was taken by some brand-new demon for no discernable reason.

[Andru]

Just wanted to pop in and wish a Happy New Year to everyone!

Really haven't been posting on the forum much, but when I stop by to browse, I always check this thread.

2022 looks to be another big year for Magik with the upcoming New Mutants' "Labors of Magik" arc & being a featured player in 2K's "Midnight Suns".

Yay Illyana

[ZephyrSurf]

If I could go back in time and change the original Inferno, N'Astirh would never have existed. It would have been revealed that Belasco had been manipulating things for a long time to break Illyana and was ready to make his move. Belasco sent S'ym to attack the mansion knowing S'ym had no chance of winning because he intended for S'ym to act as Illyana's servant, but he remained loyal to Belasco the entire time. Belasco was the one who allowed Magus into Limbo with the orders that S'ym was to use the transmode virus to rebel, putting Illyana in a position where she would increasingly question her decision to show mercy. That story would follow the plot and themes of Illyana's story up until that point a million times better than the crap which was Simonsen's New Mutants run and actually bring about a sense of closure when she sacrificed herself to stop Belasco, refusing up until her dying breath to become like him. There'd be no need to bring her back to life just to fix the problems with her exit and her story would actually be complete. It will always be mind-boggling to me that Belasco's place in the story was taken by some brand-new demon for no discernable reason.

Eh, I don't really agree with removing N'Astirh. Mostly cause I feel like inserting Belasco there just kinda encircles everything back to him to an unnecessary degree. I like when a villain is a major part of a character's story, but don't like it when they're like 60% of it. I don't need Belasco being Magik's Norman Osborn.

[sunofdarkchild]

Eh, I don't really agree with removing N'Astirh. Mostly cause I feel like inserting Belasco there just kinda encircles everything back to him to an unnecessary degree. I like when a villain is a major part of a character's story, but don't like it when they're like 60% of it. I don't need Belasco being Magik's Norman Osborn.

The problem is that a rematch with Belasco was set up as Illyana's ultimate endgame from the start. The last thing he says to her is that she'll regret sparing his life when he delivers earth to the Elder Gods. She realized before returning to earth that doing so would mean she'd definitely have to fight him again. The issue where she joins the New Mutants not only has S'ym say he was sent specifically by Belasco to retrieve Illyana, but has her again mulling over the expected final confrontation with Belasco and how one of them would die in that fight. The entire set-up was that Belasco was the final opponent to whom she would either lose her life or what was left of her soul the next time they met. Replacing him with N'Astirh was the same as removing Darth Vader from Return of the Jedi or Voldemort from the last Harry Potter book and replacing them with some brand new, never before hear-of villain. It cheapened the story and prevented any sense of meaningful resolution to her story. Even without any changes to the plot, just having Belasco in N'Astirh's role, with all of his actions and dialogue 100% the same, would already make the story better even with the weirdness of him fighting S'ym and becoming infected with the transmode virus, because it would at least give Illyana's story the weight and resolution what was actually presented utterly failed to.

My best guess is that the entire reason N'Astirh exists is because Louise Simonsen completely forgot what happened in the Magik mini and no editor corrected her. She wrote a comic in 1988 in which Illyana states proudly that she killed her master in Limbo, and the context leaves no doubt that she means Belasco and not Cat and Storm. Simonsen truly forgot that Illyana had her pivotal moment where she spared Belasco's life, and so when Inferno came she needed someone to take the place Belasco should have had in the story, down to being in love with Illyana. This bad memory of Simonsen's killed Illyana's characterization under her run, because she forgot that Illyana had infact learned the dangers of killing in anger and therefore spared Belasco, and so she spent the second half of her run having Illyana relearn lessons she already learned in her origin story as if her entire origin never happened and doing things Illyana would never do because she knew better.

[CellarDweller]

I've been against the Bachalo costume and design since day 1. Going back to how she was in the 80s, she was extremely fit, but you wouldn't have any idea just how fit she was just by looking for her. After 2 years of doing nothing but running and combat training she was pretty much the equal of someone who was twice her size and had the physical capabilities of a tiger. She didn't need to be buff or overly tall since she had the stamina and training, and she didn't need to be tall or have big muscles to have an intimidating presence. At first glance you wouldn't think she could mess you up, until she glared at you or started to attack. Bachalo giving her a physique more like her brother's and a costume designed for the sole purpose of showing off as much of those muscles and skin as possible has always been something I disliked.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem with her current 'big man on campus' attitude. She's reached a point where she's finally comfortable in her own skin and not hating herself and holding back her feelings all the time. She knows what she's capable of and how easily she could wreck most everyone else, and she's comfortable with it and with showing it. I only think she's a brawler when she's forced to use the giant anime sword Bachalo gave her. A weapon of that size is only good for brawling. But when she's allowed to use the more traditionally-designed soul sword she can use more technique and finesse. I think both her sparring match with Raza and her training with Doug show this pretty well. I'm trying to recall if there's been a time recently where she was drawn with the giant Bachalo sword instead and outside of Curse of the Man-Thing I can't think of one, and she didn't use the sword at all in that story.

I totally agree with you both on costume and the Soulsword. I never liked when it appeared as this oversized weapon. I like the sleek look of a traditional sword.

as for her costume, I always liked the look of her "graduation" outfit with the red hood and cloak. Although now I would assume that would look to similar to DC's Raven, even though hers is blue.

[sunofdarkchild]

I've always been pretty partial to the original white and black graduation outfit from the Uncanny annual. The hood and cloak serve the sorceress motif quite well and I wish she'd just default to that sort of look instead of the Bachalo look, regardless of the color.

Another problem with the Bachalo design is what it does to her armor. Her armor is always this sleek, shiny silver. But with Bachalo's look it gets turned into this ugly blocky black monstrosity with spikes. The only positive thing that could be said about it is that it's something distinct from the training uniform she otherwise wears, but the training uniform is better to begin with since her armor and sword already provide a unique enough look to distinguish her visually without all the problems of the Bachalo look.

[G0RM]

The problem is that a rematch with Belasco was set up as Illyana's ultimate endgame from the start. The last thing he says to her is that she'll regret sparing his life when he delivers earth to the Elder Gods. She realized before returning to earth that doing so would mean she'd definitely have to fight him again. The issue where she joins the New Mutants not only has S'ym say he was sent specifically by Belasco to retrieve Illyana, but has her again mulling over the expected final confrontation with Belasco and how one of them would die in that fight. The entire set-up was that Belasco was the final opponent to whom she would either lose her life or what was left of her soul the next time they met. Replacing him with N'Astirh was the same as removing Darth Vader from Return of the Jedi or Voldemort from the last Harry Potter book and replacing them with some brand new, never before hear-of villain. It cheapened the story and prevented any sense of meaningful resolution to her story. Even without any changes to the plot, just having Belasco in N'Astirh's role, with all of his actions and dialogue 100% the same, would already make the story better even with the weirdness of him fighting S'ym and becoming infected with the transmode virus, because it would at least give Illyana's story the weight and resolution what was actually presented utterly failed to.

My best guess is that the entire reason N'Astirh exists is because Louise Simonsen completely forgot what happened in the Magik mini and no editor corrected her. She wrote a comic in 1988 in which Illyana states proudly that she killed her master in Limbo, and the context leaves no doubt that she means Belasco and not Cat and Storm. Simonsen truly forgot that Illyana had her pivotal moment where she spared Belasco's life, and so when Inferno came she needed someone to take the place Belasco should have had in the story, down to being in love with Illyana. This bad memory of Simonsen's killed Illyana's characterization under her run, because she forgot that Illyana had infact learned the dangers of killing in anger and therefore spared Belasco, and so she spent the second half of her run having Illyana relearn lessons she already learned in her origin story as if her entire origin never happened and doing things Illyana would never do because she knew better.

First off, I want to suggest on the Magik Appreciation forum that posters and readers accept Scott McCloud's thesis in 'Understanding Comics' that the true magic of capital 'A' Art takes place, not in the creator's mind, but inside each unique mind of each audience/participant, unfolding for them uniquely, each time they experience it.

Rereading a great work across the decades of one's life might reveal very different, even completely contradictory themes, as life experience claims each of us, 'one can't step into the same river twice'/'you can't go home again', not just because the river and household are different, but because the Self has changed.

It seems to me that if my own experience of Illyana changes with my life experience, there's no reason to expect someone else's experience to match mine, nor is my experience of the magik of Illyana threatened by someone else's experience, any more than my current by the past, or my past experience by my present or future self... Such differences of opinion are of great value to me, much like my having two eyes gives me the great treasure of binocular vision.

And so having an online community with many 'I's sharing our unique personal experiences of Illyana is the magik we share, which could only be dulled down, turned grey and lifeless if forced into a homogenous agreement on The One True Magik, as opposed to a rich and diverse frothing, bubbly, juicy discussion group.

But that's just my hubris opinion.

Experiences may vary.

[G0RM]

The problem is that a rematch with Belasco was set up as Illyana's ultimate endgame from the start. The last thing he says to her is that she'll regret sparing his life when he delivers earth to the Elder Gods. She realized before returning to earth that doing so would mean she'd definitely have to fight him again. The issue where she joins the New Mutants not only has S'ym say he was sent specifically by Belasco to retrieve Illyana, but has her again mulling over the expected final confrontation with Belasco and how one of them would die in that fight. The entire set-up was that Belasco was the final opponent to whom she would either lose her life or what was left of her soul the next time they met. Replacing him with N'Astirh was the same as removing Darth Vader from Return of the Jedi or Voldemort from the last Harry Potter book and replacing them with some brand new, never before hear-of villain. It cheapened the story and prevented any sense of meaningful resolution to her story. Even without any changes to the plot, just having Belasco in N'Astirh's role, with all of his actions and dialogue 100% the same, would already make the story better even with the weirdness of him fighting S'ym and becoming infected with the transmode virus, because it would at least give Illyana's story the weight and resolution what was actually presented utterly failed to.

My best guess is that the entire reason N'Astirh exists is because Louise Simonsen completely forgot what happened in the Magik mini and no editor corrected her. She wrote a comic in 1988 in which Illyana states proudly that she killed her master in Limbo, and the context leaves no doubt that she means Belasco and not Cat and Storm. Simonsen truly forgot that Illyana had her pivotal moment where she spared Belasco's life, and so when Inferno came she needed someone to take the place Belasco should have had in the story, down to being in love with Illyana. This bad memory of Simonsen's killed Illyana's characterization under her run, because she forgot that Illyana had infact learned the dangers of killing in anger and therefore spared Belasco, and so she spent the second half of her run having Illyana relearn lessons she already learned in her origin story as if her entire origin never happened and doing things Illyana would never do because she knew better.

UXM (1963) #160 & 'Magik: Storm and Illyana' are incredibly subtle works, given that they're built on Claremont's deep respect for H.P. Lovecraft, Dante Alighieri's masterwork the epic poem 'The Divine Comedy', Milton's 'Paradise Lost', and the Bible quote, Mark 8 KJV

[36] For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
[37] Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

For the more than a year publication time gap between UXM #160 and TNM#14&15 when her mutant and magical powers were undeniably revealed to mutantkind due to the Beyonder & Secret Wars I&II, she spent the intervening time at the edges of two graphic novels, 'God Loves, Man Kills' and 'The New Mutants', and, recall, had her debut in Giant Sized X #1, being as much a part of the lurking mutant menace as Franklin Richards and other reality warpers.

Note also, that in 'GL,MK' Illyana was briefly captured, scanned, and shown to test as neither fully human, mutant, or something else by Stryker's followers, Stryker's campaign being about having been given the revealed Truth that Mutants Are Demons, or 'Witchkind' as they're currently called in Otherworld.

In one case, the truth is that one particular mutant is a Hell Lord, a mutant 'incidentally' saved in 'GL,MK' by her beloved roommate, Kitty Pride, the closest living counterpart of Cat, who trained Illyana, whom Illyana then betrayed and murdered in Limbo after Belasco twisted her for her services to raise 'Little Snowflake' to be a cold hearted killer on the endless savanna land of Limbo.

In my view, thematically, Illyana essentially represents, like Victor Frankl's book, a search for meaning, autonomy, purpose, and integrity in life despite all the abuse an unclean and fallen world heaps upon a person. I'm talking the moment to moment struggle of choosing which persona to wear, what part to play in this farce called life, versus how much of the deeply confused and vulnerable self we are willing to reveal to those we've chosen to trust and love.

In the original mini, Illyana's triumph was to be unlike Belasco, to not fall for the trap Belasco laid for Old Woman Storm.

But that means, simultaneously, that her triumph over Belasco is in his becoming irrelevant to Illyana. If every moment of her life is spent asking 'What Would Belasco Do?' then doing the opposite, she would be as much under his influence as if she followed his every command.

So if Illyana is symbolic of a child abuse survivor, true recovery comes not from breaking away from the Gaslighting of the abuser's false reality, but in forming an ongoing experience of life, completely without regard to the abuser's viewpoint.

So if Belasco had been an Early Grey Tea drinker so Illyana drank black coffee, and by secondary association with Xavier's actions in TNM #51, also hated Jean Luc Picard, true maturity would be to like or dislike tea and Next Gen on their own merits, without considering Belasco. Enjoying some things Belasco did is just fine.

In any event, IMHO, the 'Magik' of Illyana is her Dr Doom / Fisk /Loki level of subtle misdirection, appearing to be much smaller than she is, not just Thor working on the same team with Hawkeye and Black Widow, but Franklin Richards/Shuma-Gorath/Odin in Power Pack.

Remember Illyana Pwn'd Belasco and the Elder Gods to take over Limbo at age 13, manipulated Stryker, crushed S'ym, puppet mastered the White Queen& Black King& Hellions to rescue Kitty, slashed the Demon Bear, freed Rahne&Bobby from Cloak & dagger, freed Rom etc from Hybrid, Pwnd The Beyonder & Shadow King, Kulan Gath, Magus&Xavier, EVERYBODY during Inferno etc for 20 years plus who believe Illyana 1.0 is gone, Legion& Apocalypse while she was MIA, Belasco & Witchfire etc when she came back, the X-Men & Project Purgatory & the Limbo Babies & Legion to Obliterate the Elder Gods Themselves, The Serpent&Cyttorak&Piotr, Avengers X-Men & Phoenix Force & Piotr to get him to stop calling her 'Snowflake', the Space God Scythian, O.N.E. & Cytorrak a second time, Dormamu&Dr. Strange, The Inhumans& The World Eater, Scarlet Witch&Zombies Vs Plants, Kulan Gath again Etc Etc Etc, while everyone mostly thinks of her as Colossus's little sister.

Her real power is incomprehensible subtlety no one attributes to her except that one time Scott Summers asked for backup to put her in a bomb jacket:

'magik': the ability to use the domino cascade of the story of the missing nail and how the kingdom was lost.

So like the Aladdin's victory over Jafar in the movie, ''Phenomenal Cosmic Powers, Itty Bitty Living Space", in Illyana's case, The New Mutants.

Thus, I find Belasco/N'Astyr to be a rather deeper subject of discussion than just one post can cover.