Diamond Dame EMMA FROST appreciation

[zeddfrost]

So, Emma reverted to type because of Scott's "Stabby-Force"?

By 'reverting to type' do you mean joining the Cabal? And if by 'reverting to type' you mean 'evil' and 'un-nuanced' then...no. That decision ended up not being 'reverting to type' so much as 'her taking the same kinds of extreme measures needed to protect mutantkind from extinction'.

As much as Scott had to go the extreme measure of creating X-Force, she decided to wade into that pit of vipers so that mutantkind can have a place on the table and ultimately to spy on and betray Osborn (see, Utopia).

[CuteClops]

Well, Carol's artists I wouldn't classify as stellar.

But I mean, loads of my faves are currently out of commission but I'm not utterly convinced that they are "hated". Hell, I'm staunchly opposed to many directions being taken with loads of characters, but again, I don't think the editorial team is "punishing" them. They're fiction.

Well, I'm utterly convinced that they hate RightClops.

[ExodusCloak]

Just a reminder not to forget JEAN GREY #8; since this will continue the story involving Emma.

And here're the Preview Pages for Issue #8.

Emma's unconscious for this issue. Looks awful

[Ulfhammer]

It isn't pairing her up with Scott that 'watered her down'. For god's sake...they were broken up when the Bendis era started. What watered her down was...well watering her down...i.e. having her not do anything for months at a time while Bendis spun his wheels doing abso-frakking-nothing.

In my experience, it's been the reverse. There's been many a woman and gay man I know cheering the current character rape-i-fication of Ems.

Bendis didn't do anything productive with literally anyone so that arguments works across the board. Being a straight male myself I much preferred her (dubiously) heroic side. She was always way more interesting to me than Storm or Kitty because she did what she did not because she grew up to have those values, but because she learned the hard way why they were important.

I think you're traipsing around the issue here a little bit. A women who absolutely gushes idealized female sensuality in not part of the Marvel agenda. Look at the idealized ladies from back in the day like Psylocke, Jean, Rogue and Storm. They've all had that aspect of their characters... lets call it muted in the last few years. That doesn't work for Emma because it's fundamental to who she is so this leaves "de-emphasizing" her as the only realistic option. I don't think this is the entire reason for what's happened to Emma by any stretch but I do think it's a factor.

Her relationship with Scott didn't do her any favors either. When Marvel realized that they'd painted themselves into a corner with Scott and the only way out was to kill him off, Emma got swept up in that to some extent as well. Call it collateral damage I suppose.

[ZNOP]

By 'reverting to type' do you mean joining the Cabal? And if by 'reverting to type' you mean 'evil' and 'un-nuanced' then...no. That decision ended up not being 'reverting to type' so much as 'her taking the same kinds of extreme measures needed to protect mutantkind from extinction'.

I take it you've never read UX-Men #129 - #134 have you?

As much as Scott had to go the extreme measure of creating X-Force, she decided to wade into that pit of vipers so that mutantkind can have a place on the table and ultimately to spy on and betray Osborn (see, Utopia).

[airdreams]

It isn't pairing her up with Scott that 'watered her down'. For god's sake...they were broken up when the Bendis era started. What watered her down was...well watering her down...i.e. having her not do anything for months at a time while Bendis spun his wheels doing abso-frakking-nothing.

In my experience, it's been the reverse. There's been many a woman and gay man I know cheering the current character rape-i-fication of Ems.

So true, it's lame writers that watered her down.

[zeddfrost]

Bendis didn't do anything productive with literally anyone so that arguments works across the board. Being a straight male myself I much preferred her (dubiously) heroic side. She was always way more interesting to me than Storm or Kitty because she did what she did not because she grew up to have those values, but because she learned the hard way why they were important.

I think you're traipsing around the issue here a little bit. A women who absolutely gushes idealized female sensuality in not part of the Marvel agenda. Look at the idealized ladies from back in the day like Psylocke, Jean, Rogue and Storm. They've all had that aspect of their characters... lets call it muted in the last few years. That doesn't work for Emma because it's fundamental to who she is so this leaves "de-emphasizing" her as the only realistic option. I don't think this is the entire reason for what's happened to Emma by any stretch but I do think it's a factor.

Her relationship with Scott didn't do her any favors either. When Marvel realized that they'd painted themselves into a corner with Scott and the only way out was to kill him off, Emma got swept up in that to some extent as well. Call it collateral damage I suppose.

OH I wasn't traipsing around that issue at all. I think I mentioned that several posts back.

Comic fandom seems trapped in this 'let's fetishize second wave anti-sex feminism' kick...and I'm hoping we'll leave this phase sooner rather than later.

[WallStreeter]

Agreed. I also don't mind her as a "villain" just hate the whole Cyclops angle of it. And I'm a Scemma fan!



Because the fans that hated her with Cyclops and blamed their relationship for "watering" down Emma, don't seem to mind what happened as much because it breaks her ties to Cyclops/aka her spot on the team. In their view a mustache twirling Emma is better than her being "Cyclop's gf". I also think many of these fans also like the idea of being dominated by bad girl, and Emma, whom embraces her sexuality the way she does, is the poster girl for that. Many straight guys (the ones currently in charge of her writing) seem to like her more as a villain whereas gay/female fans (most posters on this thread) seem to like her more as a hero hence the disconnect. That's my theory anyway cause I don't think they hate her nor do I think they're incompetent.

I'm gay and I like her as a villain. I don't mind her as a hero, but at one point they pushed her as the X-Men's top female character and co leader along with Cyclops. It was just ridiculous and a position she had not earned beyond sleeping with Cyclops. She has no real relationships with any of the adult X-men.

I always preferred both Jean Grey and Storm to Emma Frost.

So keep in most however posters on this thread may feel, it's not a scientific study on the preferences of straight or gay X-fans.

[lurkerforyears]

I am gay, I am not American (I am from Argentina), and I like Emma because she isn't a "you go girl" grrrl power Mary Sue. She is a strong female character in the same way Catherine the Great was one. Not a perfect person. I find her more interesting.
The Extinction Team that had team members like Magneto, Namor, Magik, Juggernaut Colossus etc, was the perfect place for her. Not everything has to be about a perfect family playing softball.

IMO she isn't having a good time currently, because Marvel's idea of a female hero right now is someone completely covered in vaguely tacticool clothes, even if they have super human strength and great invulnerability, and are far more dressed and covered than an Olympic Athlete, generally with short hair or a sidecut. Completely heroic without any moral ambiguity, with fluffy comics that celebrate how kick ass they are.

That American thing of blaming gays, or straight men, or whites, I dont really understand it and I don't think it's the real reason. I think both right wing and left wing people there tend towards puritanism. Judging art not by its quality, but by the moral values it promotes. "She is a homewrecker, she was a super villain, a person who dresses like that can't be a hero" those are the issues.

[maxhilary]

Ok well since others are throwing it out there, I'm gay and I much prefer Emma as a hero. She hadn't been a villain since 1994, and has had so much character development and growth to earn her place with the X-men. And not just that, but she's had numerous fake-outs over the years, particularly the Osborn cabal one and the Whedon run, and even after those she was ultimately proven to be one of the X-men. Of course I don't need her to be a goody two shoes at all, but I believe that she reformed literally 20 years ago, though she is still rather ruthless in her ways. But that just makes her more complicated and interesting, and sets her apart from others. Wolverine is allowed to be violent and kill people and no one ever doubts that he's a hero, so I see it the same way with her.

I could tell that lots of readers resented her place as the most prominent female of the X-men, and that's actually why I personally liked that she was more in the background in the Bendis run. I felt like it would help some of the heat come off her. Unfortunately it seems it just made it easier to derail her.

[CuteClops]

I'm not gay and I like Emma as an anti-heroine, strong, capable, powerful, funny, more intelligent than ever, and leading a team, with Daken, Iceman, Frenzy, Dazzler, Bishop and Northstar.

[Hizashi]

I am gay, I am not American (I am from Argentina), and I like Emma because she isn't a "you go girl" grrrl power Mary Sue. She is a strong female character in the same way Catherine the Great was one. Not a perfect person. I find her more interesting.
The Extinction Team that had team members like Magneto, Namor, Magik, Juggernaut Colossus etc, was the perfect place for her. Not everything has to be about a perfect family playing softball.

IMO she isn't having a good time currently, because Marvel's idea of a female hero right now is someone completely covered in vaguely tacticool clothes, even if they have super human strength and great invulnerability, and are far more dressed and covered than an Olympic Athlete, generally with short hair or a sidecut. Completely heroic without any moral ambiguity, with fluffy comics that celebrate how kick ass they are.

That American thing of blaming gays, or straight men, or whites, I dont really understand it and I don't think it's the real reason. I think both right wing and left wing people there tend towards puritanism. Judging art not by its quality, but by the moral values it promotes. "She is a homewrecker, she was a super villain, a person who dresses like that can't be a hero" those are the issues.

That's a pretty good point.

[zeddfrost]

I am gay, I am not American (I am from Argentina), and I like Emma because she isn't a "you go girl" grrrl power Mary Sue. She is a strong female character in the same way Catherine the Great was one. Not a perfect person. I find her more interesting.
The Extinction Team that had team members like Magneto, Namor, Magik, Juggernaut Colossus etc, was the perfect place for her. Not everything has to be about a perfect family playing softball.

IMO she isn't having a good time currently, because Marvel's idea of a female hero right now is someone completely covered in vaguely tacticool clothes, even if they have super human strength and great invulnerability, and are far more dressed and covered than an Olympic Athlete, generally with short hair or a sidecut. Completely heroic without any moral ambiguity, with fluffy comics that celebrate how kick ass they are.

That American thing of blaming gays, or straight men, or whites, I dont really understand it and I don't think it's the real reason. I think both right wing and left wing people there tend towards puritanism. Judging art not by its quality, but by the moral values it promotes. "She is a homewrecker, she was a super villain, a person who dresses like that can't be a hero" those are the issues.

A-frakking-Men.

Superhero comics in recent years has definitely swung back to the more...appropriate for juveniles mode of writing in recent years. Characters have to lose any moral ambiguity and gone are the days of complex and more interesting stories...not to mention actually good writers.

[VNCTG]

With all these Jean-Scott-Logan love triangle threads and "Emma was only arm candy" posts splattered everywhere, its nice to see a handful of us still rooting for Emma. May she see the end of her character assassination, for these are truly the dark times.

[ExodusCloak]

Emma as a villain hasn't existed for almost 3 decades and when she did it was a handful of appearances. I mean I prefer Jean Grey dead and believe she should never have been brought back in X-factor. And while there may be writers that agree with me on that issue it doesn't mean every writer is going to agree with me. Just from my own book keeping my observation is that those who prefer Emma as a villain aren't fans of her. They view her as a threat to their own favorite character. One is a fully developed character. The other is not. It's not even a contest. It's like comparing silver age magneto to current magneto.

The second thing is if you're trying to make her into a villain you have to make her credible threat and not job her to a pile of noobs. The fact that she had to rely on Sentinels in IvX that got easily torn down or even Xorn just means she will never be written as a credible threat in her own right by the current crop of writers. And that's actually the one thing that gives me hope that this phase is temporary. As it stands she makes an awful villain. She's not being written as a credible villain by the X-office. But as a punching bag. And as for people saying they grew up with Emma as a villain this isn't even the same character. The White Queen was a Doctor list villain, this White Queen story wise is so bad at being a villain she's Z-list