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  1. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    So, it's only a real Avengers title if it has Wonder Man, Jarvis and the Vision? Yeah...I don't buy that.

    Mind you, Hickman also used Falcon, while Wasp and SW were in UA, and the latter one that had, and still has, significant baggage which understandably most writers want to avoid. He also used Pym and Hercules in Time Runs Out, as well as having Iron Lad, Kang and Immortus meeting Cap. America. He also had an event where Thanos shows up.

    What more one has if someone is writing Avengers books, using Cap. America, Iron Man and Black Panther as the key players, and also having Thor, Cap. Marvel, Falcon, Hawkeye, Black Widow and Hulk on the team, while also using Henry Pym, Kang, Immortus, Hercules and Thanos, and yet is not considered "real Avengers" because he doesn't reference something Roger Stern wrote in 1984? That kind of narrow-minded non-sense is exactly why the book became so ignored and irrelevant over the years, appealing only to nostalgia of the diehards.
    The issue with Kang, Immortus and Iron Lad is actually a good example of what I mean -- it was basically a cameo and a reminder that the history of the team had been pushed into the background for most of the run.

    It would be completely possible to write an Avengers comic with an all-new cast that felt like a "real" Avengers book if it played on the tropes of the comic and the history of the team. (When Ewing did Mighty Avengers, though of course it wasn't an all-new cast, people commented on how it felt more like an Avengers comic than the main one, just because of the stories he chose to tell.)

    It's OK to dismiss this as nostalgia or nitpicking, but I didn't get the impression Hickman thought of the Avengers as anything more than a generic superteam with Captain America and Iron Man in it. Which is fine -- we've already seen this approach successfully taken in Avengers: Infinity War, where the Avengers didn't even exist as a team. But I think the Avengers are as much their own team, with their own history and specific tropes, as the X-Men, and I felt like Hickman wasn't doing what Bendis did and consciously challenging the way the Avengers used to do things; he just, in my opinion, didn't want to write about the team as if it had a history at all.

  2. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    I wouldn’t really call that decompressed as much as an overarching narrative. The problem is though that he’s got so many of those going that everything feels disorganized. Like we seem to have the Mephisto plot getting ready to meet the Avengers Prime one but now we have that Squadron Supreme/Red Widow plot in the wind.
    It doesn't FEEL disorganized. It IS disorganized. There's been zero resolution to his Prehistoric Avengers crap, just obtrusive throwaway stories in the middle of another never ending "narrative." And come on. This displaced time variant nonsense has been going on so long that I had to look it up to see where it 'started.' I'm being generous and picking #50, which was NINE freaking issues ago and is there an end in sight???? And that's if we don't get side bar mini-series to further extend this nonsense, like Heroes Reborn, or the upcoming Prehistoric Avengers. How is this mess NOT decompressed?
    NAMOR THE SUB-MARINER: CONQUERED SHORES #1
    Writing by Chris Cantwell. Pencils by Pasqual Ferry. Colors by Matthew Hollingworth
    FOC: September 12, 2022 -- On Sale: October 12, 2022

  3. #573
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    Picking up one of Bendis' Avengers issues was actually what got me back into reading Marvel. It was fast moving with great art and snappy dialogue. However...

    Bendis' approach was basically to go full-on blockbuster movie with every story: big cool concepts, but hurriedly thrown together with everyone quipping snappy dialogue regardless of whether it fit the characters or not, round characters forced into square holes for the sake of plot, and story points that didn't hold up to much. It didn't take long before I started to feel that it was pretty soulless, and that Bendis really didn't care at all about half the characters he was writing. There was just a lack of depth to the stories and characters that I found more and more disappointing.
    This was and is the biggest appeal for me, it was basically the equivalent of what Morrison did with the JLA.

    I mean year after year New Avengers was firing on all cylinders, not only that but the Avengers felt plugged into every corner of the Marvel Universe - they were the center spoke where all other books got their direction. The only major event that wasn't penned by Bendis was Civil War but everything was all Bendis.

    It felt so cool that the Marvel Universe actually felt connected, you had street level heroes, mutants, and aliens were part of the Avengers.

    And then Hickman came right after and expanded it to the nth degree.

    Bendis understood that Avengers need to be big and affect all of the Marvel Universe and it felt important - they truly were.

  4. #574
    Astonishing Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Yeah, as much as I miss having a discussion about Bendis (NOT), I'll let this one pass. In an election year here in Brazil, I'm already "enjoying" plenty of pointless political discussions.

    Peace

  5. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    This was and is the biggest appeal for me, it was basically the equivalent of what Morrison did with the JLA.

    I mean year after year New Avengers was firing on all cylinders, not only that but the Avengers felt plugged into every corner of the Marvel Universe - they were the center spoke where all other books got their direction. The only major event that wasn't penned by Bendis was Civil War but everything was all Bendis.

    It felt so cool that the Marvel Universe actually felt connected, you had street level heroes, mutants, and aliens were part of the Avengers.

    And then Hickman came right after and expanded it to the nth degree.

    Bendis understood that Avengers need to be big and affect all of the Marvel Universe and it felt important - they truly were.

    I disagree. I didn't need event after event for the Avengers to feel they were important. And the Avengers had that variety before Bendis. I agree with the following.




    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, not everyone cares so much about the book needing to be the "center" of everything or event driven to feel important so much as the as they care about the stories, character work, and the quality of the title being good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, people probably cared about the main Avengers storylines as fans of the comic without needing to get dragged into an event plotline. It's partially why Marvel started to become so reliant on events and crossovers all the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    Picking up one of Bendis' Avengers issues was actually what got me back into reading Marvel. It was fast moving with great art and snappy dialogue. However...

    Bendis' approach was basically to go full-on blockbuster movie with every story: big cool concepts, but hurriedly thrown together with everyone quipping snappy dialogue regardless of whether it fit the characters or not, round characters forced into square holes for the sake of plot, and story points that didn't hold up to much. It didn't take long before I started to feel that it was pretty soulless, and that Bendis really didn't care at all about half the characters he was writing. There was just a lack of depth to the stories and characters that I found more and more disappointing.

    This especially. Bendis couldn't make me care about characters, which he wrote all alike.


    But Bendis has always been polarizing. There used to be endless "debates" on his Avengers here when he was writing them. Heck, this thread has had more traffic in the day he was brought up, then it probably has had in two or three months.
    NAMOR THE SUB-MARINER: CONQUERED SHORES #1
    Writing by Chris Cantwell. Pencils by Pasqual Ferry. Colors by Matthew Hollingworth
    FOC: September 12, 2022 -- On Sale: October 12, 2022

  6. #576
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I disagree. I didn't need event after event for the Avengers to feel they were important. And the Avengers had that variety before Bendis.
    How were they important before? How did they affect anything?

    Before Bendis it was X-Men and then Spider-Man; hell even the Fantastic Four were more impactful than the Avengers during those times.

  7. #577

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    Bendis was the worst.

    No taking the piss. No trolling.


    1) He disassembled “my” Avengers by turning them into “Marvel All-Stars”
    2) He basically ruined one of my favorites by turning her into a plot device


    Aaron sucks too, but he’s focused on either characters that have their own books so can overcome his bad writing, or on characters that don’t mean anything to me personally. His run will lift away like a bad dream, “who shot JR style”.

    And of course, Austen was pretty bad too but a he did was initiate an unnecessary one-night stand and shit on Hank Pym like so many other writers have. He wins by default.
    “I’ve stood before tyrants before. They’ve all been so sure it’s over. They were all as sure as you are. I was there, in 1940, and people thought it was over. Heroism isn’t about strength. It’s about not giving in. And truth is? It’s not over as long as any of us are standing. The world can hear me. Know this. We’re allAvengers now. Assemble. And avenge.” - Captain America, Judgement Day #5

  8. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    How were they important before? How did they affect anything?
    I don't think it matters much to someone who likes a book whether it affects other books.

    It's true that during the Bendis era, thanks partly to the return of big mega-events mostly edited out of the Avengers office, the Avengers were more likely to have crossovers with other books or to affect the rest of the Marvel universe, but that doesn't really define whether or not the book is good (New Avengers was good, but I can't say the same for some of the big events).

    The main thing I can think of for "impact" before then is the post-Onslaught era when the absence of the Avengers led to the creation of the Thunderbolts. It's true the Fantastic Four were also gone, but a lot of the stories that happened in that year were based specifically on the fact that there wasn't a government-approved, beloved team of heroes. So maybe ironically, the Avengers were most impactful when they were gone.

  9. #579
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I mean, I read the Avengers for The Avengers as a team and to see their adventures, not as some centerpiece of the Marvel line or to see how it effects other titles. It's still a team book at the end of the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    But the thing is that people didn't care. Avengers until Bendis was very much the uncool, square kids that nobody bothers with, which is why Marvel managed to retain the rights to them in the first place. Even when the books were good they were ignored.
    And from what I've seen, the take of them being the "uncool, square kids" can still work with the right execution.
    You're very much a minority on that one, specially on the MCU part. But people in general were not interested in Avengers until Spider-Man showed up, by the reasons I stated above.
    I know I'm in the minority on a lot of MCU Spider-Man stuff, but in terms of being on the Avengers I think there should be more to it than just brand power and marketability because as it is he very rarely added anything to the team dynamic other than quips.
    Strange disappears for half the run and only returns barely in Time Runs Out, and in full force in Secret Wars- which is, yes, ultimately a Fantastic Four story. Cap and Iron Man are the clear key players in the main Avengers book, and also play key roles in NA, where the Illuminati don't appear. The fact that Cap. and Iron Man don't even appear in Battleworld is exactly because ultimately they fail because they can't put their differences and grievances aside, but it doesn't mean they were irrelevant.
    I would say it was ultimately irrelevant because their failure doesn't really mean much in the end and isn't even brought up again. It was just a sour note to end the last issue of Avengers on before Secret Wars.

  10. #580
    Astonishing Member Steroid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, I read the Avengers for The Avengers as a team and to see their adventures, not as some centerpiece of the Marvel line or to see how it effects other titles. It's still a team book at the end of the day.
    Couldn't agree more. Their importance has nothing to do with other titles or popularity contests. At the end of the day they were and are still the premiere super team in the Marvel universe.

  11. #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    How were they important before? How did they affect anything?

    Before Bendis it was X-Men and then Spider-Man; hell even the Fantastic Four were more impactful than the Avengers during those times.
    They fought any number of LARGE threats, that a single character couldn't handle. People had a BIG problem in the MU, they called the Avengers, not Spider-man or even the FF, who often went out and found their problems. How impactful is Bendis now? Other than torching Wanda, and promoting event mania, what's left that has an 'impact' on the MU? His storylines got pushed into events, that were forced line wide -- that's why he was 'impactful' at the time.

    But he's nothing but empty calories to me. I had zero connection to any of his characters -- who all sounded alike. I didn't care for how he warped characters to fit his style or storyline.
    Last edited by Reviresco; 08-16-2022 at 08:13 PM.
    NAMOR THE SUB-MARINER: CONQUERED SHORES #1
    Writing by Chris Cantwell. Pencils by Pasqual Ferry. Colors by Matthew Hollingworth
    FOC: September 12, 2022 -- On Sale: October 12, 2022

  12. #582
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARkadelphia View Post
    Bendis was the worst.

    No taking the piss. No trolling.


    1) He disassembled “my” Avengers by turning them into “Marvel All-Stars”
    2) He basically ruined one of my favorites by turning her into a plot device


    Aaron sucks too, but he’s focused on either characters that have their own books so can overcome his bad writing, or on characters that don’t mean anything to me personally. His run will lift away like a bad dream, “who shot JR style”.

    And of course, Austen was pretty bad too but a he did was initiate an unnecessary one-night stand and shit on Hank Pym like so many other writers have. He wins by default.
    I dunno, Aaron’s Phoenix Thor retcon and turning Howard Stark into basically a Satanist are some kinds of stinks that just get scrubbed away by solos especially given that stupid Tony adoption retcon. Aaron can do some damage with them not nothing to leash him with Avengers.

  13. #583
    Astonishing Member Steroid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    They fought any number of LARGE threats, that a single character couldn't handle. People had a BIG problem in the MU, they called the Avengers, not Spider-man or even the FF, who were often went out and found their problems. How impactful is Bendis now? Other than torching Wanda, and promoting event mania, what's left that has an 'impact' on the MU? His storylines got pushed into events, that were forced line wide -- that's why he was 'impactful' at the time.

    But he's nothing but empty calories to me. I had zero connection to any of his characters -- who all sounded alike. I didn't care for how he warped characters to fit his style or storyline.
    Pretty much my exact feelings regarding Bendis run. He may have had popular characters but his run was basically the team fighting The Hood, ninjas or sitting around eating pizza. Hell the Great Lake Avengers can handle that.

  14. #584

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    I dunno, Aaron’s Phoenix Thor retcon and turning Howard Stark into basically a Satanist are some kinds of stinks that just get scrubbed away by solos especially given that stupid Tony adoption retcon. Aaron can do some damage with them not nothing to leash him with Avengers.
    Starks parental figures have long been a mess so I can live with it. In regards to Thor, I flat out don’t care all that much about him myself.
    “I’ve stood before tyrants before. They’ve all been so sure it’s over. They were all as sure as you are. I was there, in 1940, and people thought it was over. Heroism isn’t about strength. It’s about not giving in. And truth is? It’s not over as long as any of us are standing. The world can hear me. Know this. We’re allAvengers now. Assemble. And avenge.” - Captain America, Judgement Day #5

  15. #585
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    They fought any number of LARGE threats, that a single character couldn't handle. People had a BIG problem in the MU, they called the Avengers, not Spider-man or even the FF, who were often went out and found their problems. How impactful is Bendis now? Other than torching Wanda, and promoting event mania, what's left that has an 'impact' on the MU? His storylines got pushed into events, that were forced line wide -- that's why he was 'impactful' at the time.

    But he's nothing but empty calories to me. I had zero connection to any of his characters -- who all sounded alike. I didn't care for how he warped characters to fit his style or storyline.
    LMAO, Luke Cage right now is literally the mayor of freakin' New York. Do you think that would have happened without Bendis putting him in the Avengers? How about Echo getting her own series? Even right now the fact that the Avengers are not the most beloved heroes protected by the US government sitting in a mansion is something that started, or at least really took off, in his run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steroid View Post
    Pretty much my exact feelings regarding Bendis run. He may have had popular characters but his run was basically the team fighting The Hood, ninjas or sitting around eating pizza. Hell the Great Lake Avengers can handle that.
    They also fought a Skrull invasion, the US government as led by Norman Osborn, the Sentry after he went fully nuts in Siege, etc.

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