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  1. #586
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    They fought any number of LARGE threats, that a single character couldn't handle. People had a BIG problem in the MU, they called the Avengers, not Spider-man or even the FF, who were often went out and found their problems. How impactful is Bendis now? Other than torching Wanda, and promoting event mania, what's left that has an 'impact' on the MU? His storylines got pushed into events, that were forced line wide -- that's why he was 'impactful' at the time.

    But he's nothing but empty calories to me. I had zero connection to any of his characters -- who all sounded alike. I didn't care for how he warped characters to fit his style or storyline.
    Okay let me ask you this, other than Busiek's run, what else was good in regards to The Avengers before Bendis took over the book?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    LMAO, Luke Cage right now is literally the mayor of freakin' New York. Do you think that would have happened without Bendis putting him in the Avengers? How about Echo getting her own series? Even right now the fact that the Avengers are not the most beloved heroes protected by the US government sitting in a mansion is something that started, or at least really took off, in his run.



    They also fought a Skrull invasion, the US government as led by Norman Osborn, the Sentry after he went fully nuts in Siege, etc.
    My thoughts exactly, Luke Cage was a character that was relegated (using Priest's language) to "black books" until Bendis made him mainstream. For the misses that Bendis has the one thing you can never say his books weren't diverse. This alone reverberated throughout the universe, I mean so many characters of color, underutilized characters, forgotten characters were brought into the fold as opposed to having a static team.

    And now the Avengers cast constantly rotates, which makes the team vibrant.

  2. #587
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    LMAO, Luke Cage right now is literally the mayor of freakin' New York. Do you think that would have happened without Bendis putting him in the Avengers? How about Echo getting her own series? Even right now the fact that the Avengers are not the most beloved heroes protected by the US government sitting in a mansion is something that started, or at least really took off, in his run.



    They also fought a Skrull invasion, the US government as led by Norman Osborn, the Sentry after he went fully nuts in Siege, etc.
    Norma Osborn collapsed by himself. They really didn't do anything but wait. The Skrull defeat was mostly a couple of splash pages with Reed coming up with instant fix. Not a giant confrontation. The Sentry was a mess of a character. Bendis doesn't do action. Most of threats end up falling flat as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Okay let me ask you this, other than Busiek's run, what else was good in regards to The Avengers before Bendis took over the book?



    My thoughts exactly, Luke Cage was a character that was relegated (using Priest's language) to "black books" until Bendis made him mainstream. For the misses that Bendis has the one thing you can never say his books weren't diverse. This alone reverberated throughout the universe, I mean so many characters of color, underutilized characters, forgotten characters were brought into the fold as opposed to having a static team.

    And now the Avengers cast constantly rotates, which makes the team vibrant.
    Roger stern's legendary Avengers run.

  3. #588
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Okay let me ask you this, other than Busiek's run, what else was good in regards to The Avengers before Bendis took over the book?
    You mean throughout Marvel history? Because they had pretty much the same mix of good and not-so-good runs as any other major Marvel franchise. Probably more good runs than Fantastic Four, for example, even if they arguably don't reach the same heights as the two biggest FF runs (Lee/Kirby and Byrne). In the 1970s with Thomas, Englehart and Shooter, they were probably the most consistently good Marvel flagship title, granted that many of the flagship titles were going through somewhat rocky periods.

    Even Geoff Johns' run from after Busiek is pretty well regarded now, especially the "Red Zone" arc. Granted it wasn't doing anything particularly daring or new, but it's not a title in desperate need of saving.

    Which again, is not to say that Bendis ruined it, just that Avengers Disassembled somehow gave the impression that the book was lame or boring before he came along. It was fine. Sometimes it was good, sometimes it wasn't so good, sometimes it was in between (like the Bob Harras run, which had good and bad parts), and that describes every long running title.

  4. #589
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    You mean throughout Marvel history? Because they had pretty much the same mix of good and not-so-good runs as any other major Marvel franchise. Probably more good runs than Fantastic Four, for example, even if they arguably don't reach the same heights as the two biggest FF runs (Lee/Kirby and Byrne). In the 1970s with Thomas, Englehart and Shooter, they were probably the most consistently good Marvel flagship title, granted that many of the flagship titles were going through somewhat rocky periods.

    Even Geoff Johns' run from after Busiek is pretty well regarded now, especially the "Red Zone" arc. Granted it wasn't doing anything particularly daring or new, but it's not a title in desperate need of saving.

    Which again, is not to say that Bendis ruined it, just that Avengers Disassembled somehow gave the impression that the book was lame or boring before he came along. It was fine. Sometimes it was good, sometimes it wasn't so good, sometimes it was in between (like the Bob Harras run, which had good and bad parts), and that describes every long running title.
    Red Zone made me fall in love with Black Panther, such a good arc.

    I speak as a 90's kid who only read X-Men.

    The Avengers in the 90's were so boring to reader like myself, but when I saw Spidey & Wolvie on the title forget about it - I was hooked. Ever since I have read every flagship Avengers book and only now with Aaron I am about to drop the title.

    I never read any of the old stuff like Stern's stuff; so I can't speak on that.

  5. #590
    Astonishing Member Steroid's Avatar
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    Stern's run is amazing especially his Under Siege arc and is basically tied for me with Busiek's run for my all time favorite Avengers run.

  6. #591
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Red Zone made me fall in love with Black Panther, such a good arc.

    I speak as a 90's kid who only read X-Men.

    The Avengers in the 90's were so boring to reader like myself, but when I saw Spidey & Wolvie on the title forget about it - I was hooked. Ever since I have read every flagship Avengers book and only now with Aaron I am about to drop the title.
    Oh, sure, that was part of the point of the New Avengers retool -- get new readers. Finding a reason for Spider-Man and Wolverine to be on an Avengers team, when it was obvious for different reasons that they didn't really belong, was part of the fun.

    In the early-to-mid '90s the X-Men were top dog at Marvel and the Avengers were kind of just there, just like now. Actually the Avengers were doing better back then, because they at least were able to support Avengers and West Coast Avengers.

    But the mean-spiritedness of Avengers Disassembled is how it basically plays to new readers by trying to hammer home the idea that the classic Avengers are boring and better off gone. Blowing up the mansion, killing or maiming most of the classic members, having Doctor Strange show up to tell the readers that Wanda was crazy all along and the "chaos magic" thing in Busiek's run was just her psychotic delusion. There was no need to lead into the New Avengers run in such a nasty way, but it was the end of a period when Marvel was very contemptuous of old-school fans.

    Ironically this turned around a bit after Avengers Disassembled because Marvel also greenlit some books that were more old-school, particularly the Young Avengers, which is in its own way a good introduction to what makes the "classic Avengers" what they are -- especially since part of the point of the book is that Captain America, Thor and Iron Man are not as important to Avengers history as some more obscure characters.

  7. #592
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Oh, sure, that was part of the point of the New Avengers retool -- get new readers. Finding a reason for Spider-Man and Wolverine to be on an Avengers team, when it was obvious for different reasons that they didn't really belong, was part of the fun.

    In the early-to-mid '90s the X-Men were top dog at Marvel and the Avengers were kind of just there, just like now. Actually the Avengers were doing better back then, because they at least were able to support Avengers and West Coast Avengers.

    But the mean-spiritedness of Avengers Disassembled is how it basically plays to new readers by trying to hammer home the idea that the classic Avengers are boring and better off gone. Blowing up the mansion, killing or maiming most of the classic members, having Doctor Strange show up to tell the readers that Wanda was crazy all along and the "chaos magic" thing in Busiek's run was just her psychotic delusion. There was no need to lead into the New Avengers run in such a nasty way, but it was the end of a period when Marvel was very contemptuous of old-school fans.

    Ironically this turned around a bit after Avengers Disassembled because Marvel also greenlit some books that were more old-school, particularly the Young Avengers, which is in its own way a good introduction to what makes the "classic Avengers" what they are -- especially since part of the point of the book is that Captain America, Thor and Iron Man are not as important to Avengers history as some more obscure characters.

    See I think this is the biggest difference between me and the ones who hate Bendis, I never had any attachment to the Avengers. The only thing 13 year old me knew was, Wanda was Magnetos daughter, Iron Man was a Batman knockoff, Captain America = boring, Hawkeye was a Green Arrow knockoff, Wasp = girl Atom.

    But I understand people's indignation of having their favorite team being completely destroyed, but that doesn't mean just throw the baby out with the bath water because Bendis legitimately made Marvel Marvel.

  8. #593
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steroid View Post
    Stern's run is amazing especially his Under Siege arc and is basically tied for me with Busiek's run for my all time favorite Avengers run.
    If this the arc where Wasp has to defend the Mansion?

    I think I heard about this one; I'll have to pick it up.

  9. #594
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    See I think this is the biggest difference between me and the ones who hate Bendis, I never had any attachment to the Avengers. The only thing 13 year old me knew was, Wanda was Magnetos daughter, Iron Man was a Batman knockoff, Captain America = boring, Hawkeye was a Green Arrow knockoff, Wasp = girl Atom.

    But I understand people's indignation of having their favorite team being completely destroyed, but that doesn't mean just throw the baby out with the bath water because Bendis legitimately made Marvel Marvel.
    I don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, I just wish the MCU wouldn't treat Bendis's worst story like it was somehow gospel, which is how they adapted "Wanda is crazy and her kids are fake" and justified it by saying "it was like that in the comics."

    It would be like if Feige was determined to adapt the story of Carol giving birth to her own rapist. No Avengers run should have that kind of hold over one man's mind.

    Oh well. now he's moving on to doing the "incursions" thing from Hickman, which is the most boring story point I have ever encountered in a comic, so maybe we can move on from adapting Bendis's worst ideas to adapting someone else's.

  10. #595
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    If this the arc where Wasp has to defend the Mansion?

    I think I heard about this one; I'll have to pick it up.
    It's the arc where the Masters of Evil invaded Avengers mansion, nearly killed Jarvis, gave Hercules permanent brain damage and essentially is the reason why the twist of Thunderbolts decades later had so much impact. It's much. More than Wasp defending the mansion.

  11. #596
    Astonishing Member Steroid's Avatar
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    I will say for people that don't get the dislike longtime Avengers fans have for Bendis run I would say think about the way X-Men fans feel about the way Aaron is handling the Phoenix Force. The only difference is instead of crapping on a concept or story Bendis gleefully went about crapping on the heart, soul and history of the entire Avengers franchise.

  12. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    LMAO, Luke Cage right now is literally the mayor of freakin' New York. Do you think that would have happened without Bendis putting him in the Avengers? How about Echo getting her own series? Even right now the fact that the Avengers are not the most beloved heroes protected by the US government sitting in a mansion is something that started, or at least really took off, in his run.
    I still miss the mansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    See I think this is the biggest difference between me and the ones who hate Bendis, I never had any attachment to the Avengers. The only thing 13 year old me knew was, Wanda was Magnetos daughter, Iron Man was a Batman knockoff, Captain America = boring, Hawkeye was a Green Arrow knockoff, Wasp = girl Atom.

    But I understand people's indignation of having their favorite team being completely destroyed, but that doesn't mean just throw the baby out with the bath water because Bendis legitimately made Marvel Marvel.
    See, it's an interesting story for me. I started reading Avengers regularly under Bendis but that also got me into more classic Avenger stuff and stories, so now looking back I see what Bendis did and think "huh, that happened."

  13. #598
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    How were they important before? How did they affect anything?

    Before Bendis it was X-Men and then Spider-Man; hell even the Fantastic Four were more impactful than the Avengers during those times.
    It was always X-Men and Spider-Man at the top of the heap back then...which is why Wolverine and Spider-Man were added to the team.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  14. #599
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steroid View Post
    Stern's run is amazing especially his Under Siege arc and is basically tied for me with Busiek's run for my all time favorite Avengers run.
    Me too. My only additions would be the Englehart/Conway/Shooter runs (XD)




    Last edited by K7P5V; 08-16-2022 at 10:06 PM. Reason: Made Adjustments.

  15. #600
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king of hybrids View Post

    Theoretically; the presumed end state of Aaron’s run is that Mephisto’s work to bury knowledge of the secret history teams of 616 Avengers is undone and the Avengers have inherited god knows how many cold cases and grudges with new corners of the MU (like new found beef with the Shi’ar and new Wakandan government that’s overthrown T’Challa) that could be the basis for a new status quo. It’s just Aaron has ensured no one will want to use it
    My take on ending Aaron’s run on Avengers is he has to decide if this is about Mephisto’s view of a Utopia, or, if what Mephisto is doing is just like something dangerous going on, like Devils Reign, Reckoning War or Judgement Day. I think Mephisto’s Utopia gambit ended with Heroes Reborn - that’s Mephisto’s Utopia. So I’m going with just a dangerous situation, and it will end with the restoration of all the Multiverse Avengers being resurrected and the Multiverse restored.

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