The Avengers Appreciation 2022

[Tien Long]

While Bob is a soap fan, from what I've heard, it was me -- after Bob's time on the book -- who described the Avengers as "Earth's Mightiest Melrose Place."

That was rooted in my reading of the Silver age Roy Thomas years, where the Big Three came into and out of the book (Roy used them as often as Stan would let him) while the ongoing character continuity was provided by the less-well-known characters who were there every issue, and the Bronze Age Englehart years, where the Big Four (Steve included the Panther in that, since he had his on book) kind of set policy for the team, and the character dynamics were about, again, the less-known characters who were living at the Mansion and there every month to do character stuff.

Out of all that came the extended Pym Family -- Hank and Jan begat Ultron, who begat the Vision and Jocasta, who link to Wonder Man and Mockingbird as siblings, and Mockingbird connects to Hawkeye who connects to the Black Window, and the Vision connects to Wanda, daughter of Magneto and brother of Quicksilver, and so on. That core "family" romances and feuds and spends time together and creates all kinds of interesting drama.

That's a flavor the Avengers has for me that other books don't -- the FF is a family, the X-Men are minority-rights crusaders (with lots of family within), the Inhumans are both family and a ruling clique, etc., but the Avengers are colleagues with that family stuff creating a lot of the interest within. It doesn't need to be all about the Pym family (though there's lots of good stuff there to be used), but that sense that they're all colleagues and there's that soap churning at its heart is what feels essential to me.

Whereas, say, the JLA doesn't (usually) have that same sense of family at most of its most successful points. They're a league of equals, most of whom have their own "territory," but they join together as needed to handle the bigger threats, but they feel much more like colleagues than they do like family, and the relationships that happen in the team (Superman-Batman, GL-GA-Canary, etc) seem to come from their other books more than happening in JLA.

So, oddly, it sometimes feels to me like Giffen, DeMatteis and friends successfully turned the JLA into the Avengers for a while, and Bendis and crew very successfully turned the Avengers into the JLA.

But that's comics for you. Anyway, I think I'm the guy who first brought in Melrose Place (a show I've never watched) as a comparison.

kdb

I don't view the Avengers as a family on the level of the FF or X-Men but I view them as a group that is close and supportive of each other beyond the normal confines of being work friends/colleagues.

The party scene in Avengers: Age of Ultron did a good job with that dynamic. People may differ on how good that movie is, but it's definitely the most "classic Avengers" in feel, with the Avengers hanging together after work, the classic B-listers joining the team, the Avengers fighting a villain they created themselves, the characters who start out attacking the Avengers and then immediately join the team, etc. Too bad MCU synergy was no longer a thing in comics by that time, so the comics didn't follow suit.

Thank you again for these comments. I like this idea that the Avengers are colleagues yes, but there are aspects of the familial, especially with the Hank and Jan relations. They don't pass each other by in the mansion, tower, or Celestial without acknowledging one another. Rather, they cared for one another and have close, friendly interactions. What I liked about Kurt's run were the moments when the Avengers had breakfast with one another or when Beast, Simon, Wanda, and Vision visited a jazz club. I recall earlier issues of Avengers were the entire team was playing baseball (granted the X-Men had those moments too). It wasn't all about fighting Ultron or Kang The Conqueror.

Is that true now though? Do the Avengers still have that family component? Well, there was that hot tub scene in Avengers #21, right after War of Realms:


The team is relaxing and joking. It's a little ribald, and not as innocent as a Jarvis serving up breakfast. However, it's a casual moment amongst colleagues. It's familial in its own way. Though I'd prefer members going to a jazz club in the future.

[Tien Long]

As for my own thoughts on Aaron's Avengers, well, I've been rereading past story arcs, from the one featuring the Starbrand all the way to the most recent issues featuring the multiversal Masters of Evil. The big con for me has been inconsistency with the past. For instance, there have been disregard for power levels. There were moments when Avengers are fighting heralds of Galactus one on one or Moon Knight beating King Thor. In other regards, it has been shocking revelations. Thor is really the son of the Phoenix? What?! Starbrand's human mom was a literal "illegal alien" within the Shi'ar Empire. All of these elements seem to be inconsistent with past continuity or too far fetched to take seriously. (Really, the Shi'ar would engage in trafficking a human woman?)

However, reading everything in totality.......wow, I'm genuinely enjoying Aaron's work. Yes, it edges on the absurd and seems to bet this big mish-mash of big ideas. Celestials, Phoenix forces, Starbrands, Spirits of Vengeances, and ALL these other powerful or universal forces just happening at once is a bit too much. But it's pretty cool, isn't it? And even through all of this, the Avengers are still the underdogs. Whether taking on Khonshu, the Phoenix, or enemies from throughout the multiverse, the Avengers get by. Not by a wide margin, but always someway, somehow. Even after the team is accumulating these massive power up's, like Phoenix Echo or the Starbrand, there's still suspense. How are they going to pull this off? How are they going to win? Indeed, that's what I'm currently thinking heading into the Avengers/Eternals/X-Men event for the summer.

As for the other elements of drama, like Thor suddenly being the illegitimate son of the Phoenix, well, that's an intriguing idea. The way that Thor is acting right now, the feelings of betrayal and abandonment from his father, the resentment he has towards the Phoenix, reminds me of kids caught up in extramarital affairs of parents. It hurts, for everyone involved. As a storyline though, it doesn't take away the past. It doesn't cheapen how Frigga loved Thor. It adds new challenges to be sure.

Come to think of it, the Shi'ar trafficking a human woman, is it that far-fetched? They did abduct Cyclops' parents, right? D'Ken murdered Cyclops' mom right in front of Christopher Summers?

In summary, yeah initially I didn't like Aaron's run. However, reading it in totality and considering everything, I'm liking it. Can't wait to see what happens next.

[Tracks]

I agree with this take. I think once comic fans decide something is bad that's the lens they view everything through. Aaron's work is pretty fun and they do give him a wide breadth to work a bit detached from the rest of the on-going series. Most of the inconsistencies he'll provide explanation for and he does action really well.

[Frontier]

I feel like Aaron tries to go for the family vibe but it doesn't quite come off as well...like a lot of his run.

I feel like if you're reading it for pure fun, spectacle, and popcorn it's satisfying enough, but on a character, continuity, and overall story level it doesn't hold up near as well. And for sheer randomness where characters exist or get power ups that don't feel as earned or like they really belong together.

And Thor and the Phoenix...I view that as being endemic of Aaron's handling of Thor in general where it really just feels like he doesn't "get" or care about the character enough to not keep messing with his origin or overall mythos when he's not even writing his solo book anymore. Because now he introduces a new mom for Thor in the pages of a non-Thor book and it's the Phoenix because why not? Who cares if that drastically alters Thors' character or frankly even his biology. And this is the culmination of, frankly, the worst use of Thor in an Avengers book I have ever seen where 80% of the time he's useless, getting beat up, or overshadowed by another character. I will be frankly shocked if Jane Foster doesn't end up getting the hammer at some point in this run and getting a bigger epic hero moment then Thor has gotten for the entire run.

[tliscord]

Maybe the solution is to have two books. One classic in the mansion and the other more modern. Busiek pulled me into loving Avengers, but Bendis, while cool at first, slowly pushed me away. I felt they didn’t feel like the same characters anymore. Everyone since save Hickman (and while I loved the writing, I still didn’t care for the premise) hasn’t clicked for me. And that’s fine. Obviously others enjoy it. If a future iteration strikes my fancy, I’ll be back.

I like your take, as well as Kurt’s. Although my rage needle for fan related bitch sessions tends to run amok recently of which I too can be guilty of, I’ve worked on putting aside preconceived notions of characters and teams, and tried to enjoy stories for what they are. So I miss the mansion but trying to appreciate the celestial mountain too. And I’ve enjoyed this run although admit I have to re read some of the arcs to appreciate some of the finer points. I don’t mind. I will say the artists featured with Aaron have been stunning.

[Tracks]

I feel like Aaron tries to go for the family vibe but it doesn't quite come off as well...like a lot of his run.

I feel like if you're reading it for pure fun, spectacle, and popcorn it's satisfying enough, but on a character, continuity, and overall story level it doesn't hold up near as well. And for sheer randomness where characters exist or get power ups that don't feel as earned or like they really belong together.

And Thor and the Phoenix...I view that as being endemic of Aaron's handling of Thor in general where it really just feels like he doesn't "get" or care about the character enough to not keep messing with his origin or overall mythos when he's not even writing his solo book anymore. Because now he introduces a new mom for Thor in the pages of a non-Thor book and it's the Phoenix because why not? Who cares if that drastically alters Thors' character or frankly even his biology. And this is the culmination of, frankly, the worst use of Thor in an Avengers book I have ever seen where 80% of the time he's useless, getting beat up, or overshadowed by another character. I will be frankly shocked if Jane Foster doesn't end up getting the hammer at some point in this run and getting a bigger epic hero moment then Thor has gotten for the entire run.

agree with your first part, and yea he doesn't build up to the power-ups, almost all of them are framed as twists. Like we've seen the characters do wild things they haven't otherwise been shown to do..Black panther charged up his vibranium suit and could keep up with a speedster and hold up a mountain, Blade can turn into a bat and fuse with boy-thing, ghost rider can possess a celestial, etc.
Re: the phoenix/thor connection, I feel like we haven't seen that storyline fleshed out to know how it changes the character. It could be as disruptive as you're saying but until we get the full picture it's hard to judge.

[Frontier]

agree with your first part, and yea he doesn't build up to the power-ups, almost all of them are framed as twists. Like we've seen the characters do wild things they haven't otherwise been shown to do..Black panther charged up his vibranium suit and could keep up with a speedster and hold up a mountain, Blade can turn into a bat and fuse with boy-thing, ghost rider can possess a celestial, etc.
Re: the phoenix/thor connection, I feel like we haven't seen that storyline fleshed out to know how it changes the character. It could be as disruptive as you're saying but until we get the full picture it's hard to judge.

I guess whether it's disruptive or not, it just feels like more of Aaron messing with Thor just for the sake of it instead of using him well.

[Tracks]

I guess whether it's disruptive or not, it just feels like more of Aaron messing with Thor just for the sake of it instead of using him well.

Curious, from your perspective what's the difference between emotionally testing a character and messing with them for the sake of it? Is it that retcons feel like a generally cheap way to pursue growth for characters with extensive histories? I could understand that.

[Frontier]

Curious, from your perspective what's the difference between emotionally testing a character and messing with them for the sake of it? Is it that retcons feel like a generally cheap way to pursue growth for characters with extensive histories? I could understand that.

The bolded, but also I give Aaron way less leeway with how he handles Thor because he has a bad history of just not depicting/using him well and the fact that Aaron isn't even writing his solo anymore and he's still doing it.

[Kurolegacy]

I feel like Aaron tries to go for the family vibe but it doesn't quite come off as well...like a lot of his run.

I feel like if you're reading it for pure fun, spectacle, and popcorn it's satisfying enough, but on a character, continuity, and overall story level it doesn't hold up near as well. And for sheer randomness where characters exist or get power ups that don't feel as earned or like they really belong together.

And Thor and the Phoenix...I view that as being endemic of Aaron's handling of Thor in general where it really just feels like he doesn't "get" or care about the character enough to not keep messing with his origin or overall mythos when he's not even writing his solo book anymore. Because now he introduces a new mom for Thor in the pages of a non-Thor book and it's the Phoenix because why not? Who cares if that drastically alters Thors' character or frankly even his biology. And this is the culmination of, frankly, the worst use of Thor in an Avengers book I have ever seen where 80% of the time he's useless, getting beat up, or overshadowed by another character. I will be frankly shocked if Jane Foster doesn't end up getting the hammer at some point in this run and getting a bigger epic hero moment then Thor has gotten for the entire run.

I mean, there’s already a mini coming out that will take care of that last part. Don’t think it’s by Aaron though.

[Tracks]

The bolded, but also I give Aaron way less leeway with how he handles Thor because he has a bad history of just not depicting/using him well and the fact that Aaron isn't even writing his solo anymore and he's still doing it.

that's completely fair. i feel like the x-men brand has made sure to line up their solos with their team books, but there's definitely a clear disconnect between the mainline avengers and every other characters solo. Black Panther was in space for however long and that didn't show up at all in Avengers.

[Frontier]

that's completely fair. i feel like the x-men brand has made sure to line up their solos with their team books, but there's definitely a clear disconnect between the mainline avengers and every other characters solo. Black Panther was in space for however long and that didn't show up at all in Avengers.

Although I think T'Challa was probably one of the better served characters in Avengers, especially in comparison to his solo book.

[Nomads1]

I will say the artists featured with Aaron have been stunning.

Ed Mcguiness definitely was a pull for me in the beggining, even if I've yet to read something of Aaron that really got me excited. He's a perfect fit to draw Avengers. Sadly, since the early 2000's I've seen this trend for Marvel. They give the writer they want to push (don't know why. He's well connected, he writes what the editors want to push, whatever... But it's not that GREAT stories) the pick of top tier artists. I know this is supposed to be a visual medium, and it IS a big part of what draws me in, but it's also supposed to be a COLLABORATIVE medium, and when one part doesn't hold up, the whole product ends up poorer for it. IMHO, of couse.

Peace

[tliscord]

Ed Mcguiness definitely was a pull for me in the beggining, even if I've yet to read something of Aaron that really got me excited. He's a perfect fit to draw Avengers. Sadly, since the early 2000's I've seen this trend for Marvel. They give the writer they want to push (don't know why. He's well connected, he writes what the editors want to push, whatever... But it's not that GREAT stories) the pick of top tier artists. I know this is supposed to be a visual medium, and it IS a big part of what draws me in, but it's also supposed to be a COLLABORATIVE medium, and when one part doesn't hold up, the whole product ends up poorer for it. IMHO, of couse.

Peace

Most definitely have to work in sync

[Ursalink]

The preview of "Avengers #55" makes me think.

So, Nighthawk and the other members of the Squadron Supreme are now completely aware of their real origins and how they were used as puppets by Coulson and Mephisto. It seems Nighthawk has abandoned his quest to restore his fake world (which is a good thing) and went separated ways from the rest of the Squadron Supreme.

Well, as far as I see, Nighthawk's attitude in this preview seems to be legitime and not having second intentions, other than trying to find a sense to his existence. Still, being based on Batman, I can't fully trust him (for good reasons). So, maybe it's not a bad idea to recruit him into the Avengers in the incomming war against Mephisto, but I would keep him under surveillance simply because he's too dangerous.

I'm worried about the rest of the Squadron, however. We haven't see them after the scene with Red Widow and Hyperion, but according to Black Panther, they have turned into "unhinged fanatics". (Honestly, Nighthawk has too, as he's based on Batman). That is a very bad sign, but for some reason, it doesn't seem they are trying to take over the world or something. I'm worried about what they could be up too, but since they have no reasons to side with Mephisto, at least they won't be enemies in the incomming war. Still, I would like to know what they are up to.