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  1. #601
    Astonishing Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanetaryDevastation View Post
    Roger stern's legendary Avengers run.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steroid View Post
    Stern's run is amazing especially his Under Siege arc and is basically tied for me with Busiek's run for my all time favorite Avengers run.
    Roger Stern's IS my favorite Avengers run of all time. He introduced some pretty intresting members, like Captain "Monica Rambeau" Marvel, an incredibly powerful original character that happened to be an independent black woman (talk about being ahead of its time), and the Sub-Mariner, finally giving us what was suggested all the way back in Avengers #16. A lot of people hated Starfox and Dr. Druid. Personally, I liked Eros (though I think he had a whole lot more of potential that was ever explored. The guy was THANOS' BROTHER.), and didn't mind Druid. He brought back great Avengers like Hercules and the Black Knight. He made "the Wasp" one of the best leaders in Avengers history, really building up a character that had, up to then, been a mere token female Avenger, and not a particularly powerful and impressive one. He gave us the West Coast Avengers, and the introdutory mini-series he did with Bob Hall on art really made me wish that had been the ongoing's creative team (during a great deal of it's run, WCA was, in fact, my favorite Avengers book, however, I was never much of a fan of Steve Englehart - like his concepts, but not the way he "overwrites" drama -, and, IMHO, Al Milgrom's best years as a penciler were behind him at that point). He reintroduced The Masters of Evil (a couple of line-ups), the Lava Men, Kang and Immortus as a major Avengers' bad guys. Introduced Nebula, Maelstorm, Terminus, and others to the Avengers Rogues Gallery. And, while Under Seige is deservedly the most famous Avengers arc of that run, and considered by many the best Avengers arc ever, Assault on Olympus is still my favorite Avengers saga of all-time. The Avengers taking on the Greek gods. Talk about awsome!
    Other great runs, of course, are Englehart's (as I said, I was naver particularly a fan of his writing style, but the amount of high concepts introduced in that run are amazing), Shooter's (partucularly his first run, aided by Conway and Micheline), Harras' (up till the end of the Gatherers Saga and Epting leaving), Busiek's, Johns' (short, but I liked it), and, my second favorite run of all, Roy Thomas'! Thomas run may bug a lot of newer readers, particularly those more atunned to identity politics, due to it's dated politics and all the macho posturing. However, the staggering amount of concepts he introduced during his long run are still being milked to this day.

    Peace

  2. #602
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    I have never loved Stern's run as much as most Avengers fans, though it does improve dramatically when Al Milgrom moves over to West Coast Avengers and Buscema/Palmer take over. (I get the impression that with Marvel-style writing, the choice of artist has a bigger-than-usual impact on the quality of the storytelling.) I thought he and Mark Gruenwald, his editor, placed a lot of emphasis on the Avengers as an organization with rules and regulations, and some of that is interesting, like the way the pressure of being the Avengers leader starts to get to Jan after the Masters of Evil arc. But I thought there wasn't as much of the soap-opera element as I like.

    The Masters of Evil story is great though, and a lot of the stuff about the Avengers as a workplace really pays off with that story. and arguably he was really just hitting his stride around the time that he and Gruenwald fell out and he got fired/quit/both. And letting him go was a very bad move that condemned the title to years of mediocrity before Harras and Epting took over.

  3. #603
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I too love Stern's run very much .

  4. #604
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    I know people were upset with the Phoenix mother thing but I think it resolved in a way that made sense

  5. #605
    Fantastic Member Felipe Silveira's Avatar
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    In the end it didn't offend, but it's still unnecessary, just like every Avegers B.C.

  6. #606
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    It’s a waste of a perfectly good concept (Avengers BC) for the purposes of Aaron’s unbelievably tiresome ‘gods bad’ spiel that was old when Gorr was still semi-fresh

  7. #607
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Ironically this turned around a bit after Avengers Disassembled because Marvel also greenlit some books that were more old-school, particularly the Young Avengers, which is in its own way a good introduction to what makes the "classic Avengers" what they are -- especially since part of the point of the book is that Captain America, Thor and Iron Man are not as important to Avengers history as some more obscure characters.
    Wiccan was originally called Asgardian, implying a Thor connection (instead of, as it turns out, Scarlet Witch). Patriot is a Captain America legacy, and Kang was there as Iron Lad, who, obviously, was inspired by Iron Man. Cap himself appears in the book at the end to grant Kate use of the Hawkeye name.

    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    See I think this is the biggest difference between me and the ones who hate Bendis, I never had any attachment to the Avengers. The only thing 13 year old me knew was, Wanda was Magnetos daughter, Iron Man was a Batman knockoff, Captain America = boring, Hawkeye was a Green Arrow knockoff, Wasp = girl Atom.
    Girl Atom? Janet isn't that. Ray Palmer does pre-date her (debuted in Showcase #34 in 1961, Janet debuted in 1963), but Janet has powers that Ray lacks. It's actually DC who ripped off Marvel, since Bumblebee is basically a black version of Wasp.

    Heck, the comics version of Ray is so lame, the Arrowverse version actually gave him Iron Man powers (comics Ray can't fly, TV Ray can thanks to his powered armour). His shrinking was also expanded to work like Kamala's (yup, they did the whole embiggening fist thing).
    Last edited by Digifiend; 08-17-2022 at 11:43 AM.
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  8. #608
    Extraordinary Member K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    Roger Stern's IS my favorite Avengers run of all time. He introduced some pretty intresting members, like Captain "Monica Rambeau" Marvel, an incredibly powerful original character that happened to be an independent black woman (talk about being ahead of its time), and the Sub-Mariner, finally giving us what was suggested all the way back in Avengers #16. A lot of people hated Starfox and Dr. Druid. Personally, I liked Eros (though I think he had a whole lot more of potential that was ever explored. The guy was THANOS' BROTHER.), and didn't mind Druid. He brought back great Avengers like Hercules and the Black Knight. He made "the Wasp" one of the best leaders in Avengers history, really building up a character that had, up to then, been a mere token female Avenger, and not a particularly powerful and impressive one. He gave us the West Coast Avengers, and the introdutory mini-series he did with Bob Hall on art really made me wish that had been the ongoing's creative team (during a great deal of it's run, WCA was, in fact, my favorite Avengers book, however, I was never much of a fan of Steve Englehart - like his concepts, but not the way he "overwrites" drama -, and, IMHO, Al Milgrom's best years as a penciler were behind him at that point). He reintroduced The Masters of Evil (a couple of line-ups), the Lava Men, Kang and Immortus as a major Avengers' bad guys. Introduced Nebula, Maelstorm, Terminus, and others to the Avengers Rogues Gallery. And, while Under Seige is deservedly the most famous Avengers arc of that run, and considered by many the best Avengers arc ever, Assault on Olympus is still my favorite Avengers saga of all-time. The Avengers taking on the Greek gods. Talk about awsome!
    Other great runs, of course, are Englehart's (as I said, I was naver particularly a fan of his writing style, but the amount of high concepts introduced in that run are amazing), Shooter's (partucularly his first run, aided by Conway and Micheline), Harras' (up till the end of the Gatherers Saga and Epting leaving), Busiek's, Johns' (short, but I liked it), and, my second favorite run of all, Roy Thomas'! Thomas run may bug a lot of newer readers, particularly those more atunned to identity politics, due to it's dated politics and all the macho posturing. However, the staggering amount of concepts he introduced during his long run are still being milked to this day.

    Peace
    Great commentary. In agreement with you about both Under Siege & Assault on Olympus from the Stern run.
    Under Siege is definitely top-tier, while Assault on Olympus is somewhat overlooked...


  9. #609
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Wiccan was originally called Asgardian, implying a Thor connection (instead of, as it turns out, Scarlet Witch). Patriot is a Captain America legacy, and Kang was there as Iron Lad, who, obviously, was inspired by Iron Man. Cap himself appears in the book at the end to grant Kate use of the Hawkeye name.

    Girl Atom? Janet isn't that. Ray Palmer does pre-date her (debuted in Showcase #34 in 1961, Janet debuted in 1963), but Janet has powers that Ray lacks. It's actually DC who ripped off Marvel, since Bumblebee is basically a black version of Wasp.

    Heck, the comics version of Ray is so lame, the Arrowverse version actually gave him Iron Man powers (comics Ray can't fly, TV Ray can thanks to his powered armour). His shrinking was also expanded to work like Kamala's (yup, they did the whole embiggening fist thing).
    tell 13 year old me that

  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    tell 13 year old me that
    It's too bad the '90s Avengers couldn't take back the Beast as a member. It would have brought over some X-Men readers, and it's not like he was doing such great things in the X-Men line anyway.

    You could tell whenever Bob Harras had Beast show up in Avengers that he really wanted him back as a writer, but he was also X-Men editor and he wouldn't give himself permission to use McCoy on a regular basis. Such was the weirdness of the period when editors were hiring each other as writers.



    Then in the 1998 reboot, the characters George Pérez (RIP) most wanted to draw were the Scarlet Witch and the Beast. Well, no problem giving him all the Wanda panel time he wanted, but the Beast just was not available except as a guest star. They made a little joke about this in one issue.


  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracks View Post
    I know people were upset with the Phoenix mother thing but I think it resolved in a way that made sense
    Same. Not really necessary, but at least it made sense. Maybe it will serve as a plot point for a future story.
    I try to improve my english, feel free to correct me by DM if you see some mistakes !

  12. #612
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordozone View Post
    Same. Not really necessary, but at least it made sense. Maybe it will serve as a plot point for a future story.
    That's my big thing. I don't see what was even the point of it.

  13. #613
    Incredible Member Mantis-Ray's Avatar
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    I feel like most writers will just ignore it since it doesn't really offer anything to the character other than some minor powers.

    Only the most extreme continuity junkies like Ewing will prolly ever reference it.

  14. #614
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    It's too bad the '90s Avengers couldn't take back the Beast as a member. It would have brought over some X-Men readers, and it's not like he was doing such great things in the X-Men line anyway.

    ....

    Then in the 1998 reboot, the characters George Pérez (RIP) most wanted to draw were the Scarlet Witch and the Beast. Well, no problem giving him all the Wanda panel time he wanted, but the Beast just was not available except as a guest star. They made a little joke about this in one issue.

    I didn't even know Beast was an Avenger until wayyyy after, so that can tell you how much I knew about the 90's X-Men

  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    That's my big thing. I don't see what was even the point of it.
    Hey, when you write a character from a big company like Marvel, it's what you do: you infuse your vision and ideas to a hero and try to add to his mythology. Maybe another author will use it, maybe not, but at long that you don't destroy and deconstruct the property, not a problem. I'm not a fan of the Avengers by Aaron but as long as he doesn't destroy the characters (like James Shooter when he makes Ant-man a wife-beater), I will wait.
    I try to improve my english, feel free to correct me by DM if you see some mistakes !

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