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  1. #46
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    I wish Marvel could do something with Clint. Almost all of the founder MCU Avengers are getting new upgrades and costumes ane even getting new different contents from different creators. Iron Man is going back to classic iron suit. Captain America is getting a new beginning story with the legacy inspiration of Captain America along with Sam Wilson. Black Widow is getting a new costume, Kate Bishop is getting a new mini and a costume, Thor and Hulk are getting new upgrades with different plots while out boy Clint look like he is still stuck from the 2012 Matt Fraction's appearance with no new contents. Ever since, All Captain America's side friends like Bucky and Sam are going to get a new book.

    I still wonder if they will adapt a new costume for Clint based on the MCU version.

  2. #47
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAWtoyoto 432 View Post
    I wish Marvel could do something with Clint. Almost all of the founder MCU Avengers are getting new upgrades and costumes ane even getting new different contents from different creators. Iron Man is going back to classic iron suit. Captain America is getting a new beginning story with the legacy inspiration of Captain America along with Sam Wilson. Black Widow is getting a new costume, Kate Bishop is getting a new mini and a costume, Thor and Hulk are getting new upgrades with different plots while out boy Clint look like he is still stuck from the 2012 Matt Fraction's appearance with no new contents. Ever since, All Captain America's side friends like Bucky and Sam are going to get a new book.

    I still wonder if they will adapt a new costume for Clint based on the MCU version.
    It seems like all Marvel cares about is Kate Bishop. Which kind of mirrors the direction of the show in some ways.

    Why would Clint need a new MCU costume? They basically just incorporated his current costume minus the shades. I totally want a new costume though.

  3. #48
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Apparently there's are screenshots of a deleted scene for the D+ show that would have shown Clint as a young boy with his mother.
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  4. #49
    Incredible Member OOTCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    Apparently there's are screenshots of a deleted scene for the D+ show that would have shown Clint as a young boy with his mother.
    I don't know who uploaded it, but here's the video of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crx8M8t5Obg

    And it's amazing! Now that I know that this exists, I'm even more disappointed that it wasn't included in the show.

    A part of me understands, because having just his childhood without anything to bridge between that and how he ended up as a SHIELD agent is a pretty big missing leap. Still, if they had been able to fit in both this and some scenes that showed what his life was like as an adolescent and how he was brought into SHIELD, I would have been much happier with the show.

  5. #50
    Spectacular Member Crazyspideyfan's Avatar
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    I just want 616 Clint to embrace his classic purple suit. Most Marvel characters have returned to their classic but campy looks, (such as Steve Rogers), and I would like it if Clint stopped being ashamed of the suit and embraced it

  6. #51
    Spectacular Member Ruby Quartz Diamond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAWtoyoto 432 View Post
    I wish Marvel could do something with Clint. Almost all of the founder MCU Avengers are getting new upgrades and costumes ane even getting new different contents from different creators. Iron Man is going back to classic iron suit. Captain America is getting a new beginning story with the legacy inspiration of Captain America along with Sam Wilson. Black Widow is getting a new costume, Kate Bishop is getting a new mini and a costume, Thor and Hulk are getting new upgrades with different plots while out boy Clint look like he is still stuck from the 2012 Matt Fraction's appearance with no new contents. Ever since, All Captain America's side friends like Bucky and Sam are going to get a new book.

    I still wonder if they will adapt a new costume for Clint based on the MCU version.
    I'm not trying to imply anything but I thought it's rather unusual that after the Fraction Hawkeye run had made Clint deaf again, Marvel tried to actively shift the focus from Clint to Kate instead of giving each an adequate amount of focus or at least make Clint competent on his own. It's the same direction Marvel Studios took with the Hawkeye show, giving big parts to Clint's character to MCU Kate (Lucky, Tracksuit Mafia, Swordsman) probably because he is stuck with a family. And in that aforementioned show, they made Clint canonically HoH. It's a strange coincidence. It's a shame because Clint is a great representation for the deaf and HoH community and would serve such a good role model for them if they had decided to expand on his story. It's painful how Clint Barton has been sidelined a lot by Marvel. I really thought the Hawkeye show would change the direction for his character in a big and meaningful way, but as if they could've have disappointed us further, they sidelined him in his own show. It's also quite painful reading the interviews from the creative team because they sound like they really don't care about Clint and never will. They're just excited about using the show to introduce new characters, bring back fan-favourites and generate hype and wild theories which they seem largely entertained by.

  7. #52
    Incredible Member OOTCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby Quartz Diamond View Post
    I'm not trying to imply anything but I thought it's rather unusual that after the Fraction Hawkeye run had made Clint deaf again, Marvel tried to actively shift the focus from Clint to Kate instead of giving each an adequate amount of focus or at least make Clint competent on his own. It's the same direction Marvel Studios took with the Hawkeye show, giving big parts to Clint's character to MCU Kate (Lucky, Tracksuit Mafia, Swordsman) probably because he is stuck with a family. And in that aforementioned show, they made Clint canonically HoH. It's a strange coincidence. It's a shame because Clint is a great representation for the deaf and HoH community and would serve such a good role model for them if they had decided to expand on his story. It's painful how Clint Barton has been sidelined a lot by Marvel. I really thought the Hawkeye show would change the direction for his character in a big and meaningful way, but as if they could've have disappointed us further, they sidelined him in his own show. It's also quite painful reading the interviews from the creative team because they sound like they really don't care about Clint and never will. They're just excited about using the show to introduce new characters, bring back fan-favourites and generate hype and wild theories which they seem largely entertained by.
    I don't think there's any validity to the argument that the reason Clint has been sidelined in the MCU is because of the family. His family didn't show up until Age of Ultron, his third appearance, a movie where he had exponentially more lines and more agency than in any of his previous appearances. Second of all, Scott Lang has a family, and the MCU used that to enhance his story, not to hold him back. The reason the MCU didn't do Clint justice is simply because Clint Barton wasn't a priority for the people making the decisions. It stinks, absolutely, but their hands were not tied by the existence of the family.

    As far as the comics go, Clint actually had a lot going on after the Fraction/Aja run ended, between 2014-2020. There were the two All-New Hawkeye series, he was a member of Ewing's New Avengers, he was the star of Occupy Avengers, one of the main characters in Secret Empire, he had a Generations one-shot, he co-starred in Tales of Suspense, he was part of both Avengers: No Surrender and Avengers: No Road Home, he was in the West Coast Avengers revival, and he had Hawkeye: Freefall. Since Freefall ended, he's been in narrative limbo (while still making tons of guest appearances in other books). Right now, he's kind of in the same place as most of the classic Avengers who don't currently have a solo and aren't currently on the team (like Wasp, Scarlet Witch, Vision, Spectrum, Mockingbird, Quicksilver, and so many others).

    I think a big part of the problem stems from the fact that Marvel recently has gotten this idea that the Avengers needs to be made up of the biggest stars who are already rocking their own solo titles, which (in my opinion) makes it less interesting and leads to so many classic Avengers getting paid dust.

  8. #53
    Spectacular Member Ruby Quartz Diamond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOTCS View Post
    I don't think there's any validity to the argument that the reason Clint has been sidelined in the MCU is because of the family. His family didn't show up until Age of Ultron, his third appearance, a movie where he had exponentially more lines and more agency than in any of his previous appearances. Second of all, Scott Lang has a family, and the MCU used that to enhance his story, not to hold him back. The reason the MCU didn't do Clint justice is simply because Clint Barton wasn't a priority for the people making the decisions. It stinks, absolutely, but their hands were not tied by the existence of the family.

    As far as the comics go, Clint actually had a lot going on after the Fraction/Aja run ended, between 2014-2020. There were the two All-New Hawkeye series, he was a member of Ewing's New Avengers, he was the star of Occupy Avengers, one of the main characters in Secret Empire, he had a Generations one-shot, he co-starred in Tales of Suspense, he was part of both Avengers: No Surrender and Avengers: No Road Home, he was in the West Coast Avengers revival, and he had Hawkeye: Freefall. Since Freefall ended, he's been in narrative limbo (while still making tons of guest appearances in other books). Right now, he's kind of in the same place as most of the classic Avengers who don't currently have a solo and aren't currently on the team (like Wasp, Scarlet Witch, Vision, Spectrum, Mockingbird, Quicksilver, and so many others).

    I think a big part of the problem stems from the fact that Marvel recently has gotten this idea that the Avengers needs to be made up of the biggest stars who are already rocking their own solo titles, which (in my opinion) makes it less interesting and leads to so many classic Avengers getting paid dust.
    Personally, I feel MCU Clint's development got staggered because of his family and his decision to retire early to spend time with his family. With MCU Scott, it's a different situation because it was established that he has a family before he officially became Ant-Man. For Clint's situation, his farm family truly came out of nowhere. There are also so many times that they can make Clint retire only to return to action again.

    I was more referring to the titles where Clint and Kate got featured together like Lemire's and Thompson's Hawkeye run where Clint was consistently portrayed as an incompetent goofball. I mean there was even a panel that echoes the whole 'Kate is better than Clint' scene when the alien children said 'Kate is better Hawkeye' and were against Clint even after Kate hit Clint first. It just hurts that Clint's character was downgraded in those runs. I did enjoy Freefall however and it was a major improvement from these runs. I haven't had the time to read the other ones that you have mentioned.

    It's just sad that the animated adaptations like Earth's Mightiest Heroes and Avengers Assemble did better in heavily featuring Clint as an integral member of the Avengers than the MCU did.

  9. #54
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    Apparently there's are screenshots of a deleted scene for the D+ show that would have shown Clint as a young boy with his mother.
    Quote Originally Posted by OOTCS View Post
    I don't know who uploaded it, but here's the video of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crx8M8t5Obg
    And it's amazing! Now that I know that this exists, I'm even more disappointed that it wasn't included in the show.

    A part of me understands, because having just his childhood without anything to bridge between that and how he ended up as a SHIELD agent is a pretty big missing leap. Still, if they had been able to fit in both this and some scenes that showed what his life was like as an adolescent and how he was brought into SHIELD, I would have been much happier with the show.
    This is the kind of content I wanted from the show for Clint. Although this feels like more of a Clint + Barney scene than a Clint + Mom scene.

  10. #55
    Incredible Member OOTCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby Quartz Diamond View Post
    Personally, I feel MCU Clint's development got staggered because of his family and his decision to retire early to spend time with his family. With MCU Scott, it's a different situation because it was established that he has a family before he officially became Ant-Man. For Clint's situation, his farm family truly came out of nowhere. There are also so many times that they can make Clint retire only to return to action again.
    Maybe if the first Avengers movie had given us an arc, a backstory, or even a personality for Clint, and the family had interrupted his trajectory as a character, this argument might sway me. But Clint was all but ignores by the MCU from his very first appearance. The Avengers movie gave us nothing about him aside from the fact that he was a SHIELD agent who was close with Black Widow. We knew nothing about his background, why he used arrows, what his motivations were for wanting to be a SHIELD agent, what kind of personality he had, what his personal aspirations were, what he thought about teaming up with people with powers and flying suits and a defrosted WWII war hero—all things that are so important for understanding his character in the comics, all things not addressed at all in the MCU.

    And I don't understand the argument that they were able to give Scott all of those things because his family was presented at the outset, but not Clint. If anything, it's the other way around—the reason they got away with giving him a secret family was because he had been such a blank slate up to that point.

    I was more referring to the titles where Clint and Kate got featured together like Lemire's and Thompson's Hawkeye run where Clint was consistently portrayed as an incompetent goofball. I mean there was even a panel that echoes the whole 'Kate is better than Clint' scene when the alien children said 'Kate is better Hawkeye' and were against Clint even after Kate hit Clint first. It just hurts that Clint's character was downgraded in those runs. I did enjoy Freefall however and it was a major improvement from these runs. I haven't had the time to read the other ones that you have mentioned.
    I 100% agree with you about All-New Hawkeye; I think the whole thing is way out of character for Clint.

    If you get a chance, I really liked how Al Ewing wrote him in New Avengers, and you might appreciate the fact that Kate isn't part of that team (although her fellow Young Avengers Wiccan and Hulkling are!).

  11. #56
    Fantastic Member Sneakronicity's Avatar
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    I'm definitely on the side who agrees the family ruined Clint's chance at any good development in the MCU. Yes, he was underutilized before they were introduced, but their introduction was a huge anchor that any writer besides Whedon (who was the only one who had previously written him) had to write around. And there's a big difference with Scott's situation and how it was handled. With Scott, he's divorced and does not have custody of Cassie, so his family doesn't hinder him in any way. His family was also used to develop his character. Cassie was his motivation, his reason for wanting to do good, or at least a good portion of it. On the other hand, Clint's family was used as a substitution for development. In AoU, they were used as a red herring to make the audience think Clint was going to die so they would be shocked when it was Pietro instead; to make the other Avengers evaluate their lives; and as a lazy way to make the audience care about Clint's life. If Scott was in danger the audience would be worrying about him because they love his character, whereas even now there's the argument that Clint couldn't die on Vormir because of his family. Not because of his character, but the family. It's a cheap way to garner sympathy.

    Also in Clint's case, it was easier for writers to just not include him than to find excuses as to why he was constantly leaving his family to fight and then retire again. That was basically his story every time he appeared, and he's the only OG Avenger who was left out of an Avengers movie entirely. So I would argue that if they hadn't given Clint a family he would have been included more, been a full time Avenger, would have had opinions on the accords, could have shown feelings on how Loki's mind control and the fall of SHIELD affected him. The family wrote him into a corner and it was just easier for future writers to not bother.

  12. #57
    Incredible Member OOTCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sneakronicity View Post
    I'm definitely on the side who agrees the family ruined Clint's chance at any good development in the MCU. Yes, he was underutilized before they were introduced, but their introduction was a huge anchor that any writer besides Whedon (who was the only one who had previously written him) had to write around. And there's a big difference with Scott's situation and how it was handled. With Scott, he's divorced and does not have custody of Cassie, so his family doesn't hinder him in any way. His family was also used to develop his character. Cassie was his motivation, his reason for wanting to do good, or at least a good portion of it. On the other hand, Clint's family was used as a substitution for development. In AoU, they were used as a red herring to make the audience think Clint was going to die so they would be shocked when it was Pietro instead; to make the other Avengers evaluate their lives; and as a lazy way to make the audience care about Clint's life. If Scott was in danger the audience would be worrying about him because they love his character, whereas even now there's the argument that Clint couldn't die on Vormir because of his family. Not because of his character, but the family. It's a cheap way to garner sympathy.

    Also in Clint's case, it was easier for writers to just not include him than to find excuses as to why he was constantly leaving his family to fight and then retire again. That was basically his story every time he appeared, and he's the only OG Avenger who was left out of an Avengers movie entirely. So I would argue that if they hadn't given Clint a family he would have been included more, been a full time Avenger, would have had opinions on the accords, could have shown feelings on how Loki's mind control and the fall of SHIELD affected him. The family wrote him into a corner and it was just easier for future writers to not bother.
    See, I agree with a lot of the things you say here in that the way the family was used was usually done in a shallow way and that Scott's relationship with his ex-wife and with Cassie was done really well while Clint's family didn't feel like fully fleshed out characters most of the time. But I don't think the family is the root of the problem. It's not an impossible task for a writer to write a compelling character with a family who also has a dangerous job, or to make the family members feel like full characters—see Aunt May, Mary Jane Watson and all of Peter Parker's civilian supporting cast for decades. I really think that from the beginning until today, the MCU writers consistently didn't place Clint as a priority, and the family was just one more thing about him that they half-assed.

  13. #58
    Fantastic Member Sneakronicity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOTCS View Post
    See, I agree with a lot of the things you say here in that the way the family was used was usually done in a shallow way and that Scott's relationship with his ex-wife and with Cassie was done really well while Clint's family didn't feel like fully fleshed out characters most of the time. But I don't think the family is the root of the problem. It's not an impossible task for a writer to write a compelling character with a family who also has a dangerous job, or to make the family members feel like full characters—see Aunt May, Mary Jane Watson and all of Peter Parker's civilian supporting cast for decades. I really think that from the beginning until today, the MCU writers consistently didn't place Clint as a priority, and the family was just one more thing about him that they half-assed.
    I agree it *could* have been done better, but still feel the family was a big part of the problem with Clint in particular. No other writer was given the chance to tackle Clint before Whedon shackled him with the family. Maybe they would have made him more of a priority if they didn't have that burden to write around. But then I'm the biggest anti-farm family person out there so there's absolutely nothing that will change my mind lol.

  14. #59
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOTCS View Post
    .If you get a chance, I really liked how Al Ewing wrote him in New Avengers, and you might appreciate the fact that Kate isn't part of that team (although her fellow Young Avengers Wiccan and Hulkling are!).
    Still made a "Kate is best Hawkeye" joke but it was just a quick one...

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazyspideyfan View Post
    I just want 616 Clint to embrace his classic purple suit. Most Marvel characters have returned to their classic but campy looks, (such as Steve Rogers), and I would like it if Clint stopped being ashamed of the suit and embraced it
    I know, right?! What's there to be embarrassed about?!?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby Quartz Diamond View Post
    I did enjoy Freefall however and it was a major improvement
    For what it's worth, I also found Freefall rather enjoyable (especially, the artwork):

    Last edited by K7P5V; 01-20-2022 at 06:45 PM. Reason: Made Adjustments.

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