Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2022

[Lee]

Is she not? Well I remember a big fanbase that still survives nowadays around the adventures of Peter and MJ's daughter. I think Marvel did something GREAT with her creation. As for Marvel, if they don't hate her, why do they treat her so badly?

She’s only the star of the longest-running superhero book with a lead female character ever published by Marvel but sure.

The series ran for a long time, but was a low seller for most of that time. The character hasn't appeared in many comics since then, hasn't appeared in movies or TV shows, hasn't had any major appearances in video games (just character skins) and hasn't had much merchandise.

Spider-Girl is not one of Marvel's most successful creations.

Speaking of Spider-Girl, Lowe also approved Slott killing MC2 Peter which…..the mind boggles even more. So I stand by my assertion.

I dislike poorly crafted, flat stories that are nothing but repetitive action until a deus ex machina shows up, hackneyed dialogue, and plastic action figures instead of characters. Thanks for noticing!

Bringing it back around to MJ, before the thread is derailed even more: what are people’s favorite stories from the marriage era since Slott asserted no one could name one (which, I will point out, is an unfair question because MJ isn’t the star of the book - if the question had been “what are your favorite marriage era stories,” the answer would be far different)? Here are some of mine outside of KLH and To Have and To Hold:

The Child Within/Death of Harry Osborn
MJ beats up the Chameleon
MJ escapes from Jonathon Caesar
Spider-Man 15 (Team up with Beast - MJ and Peter talk about kids)
I have a guilty pleasure fondness for Torment
Spider-Man 75 - tragic but well told
ASM 400
Doomed Affairs

That’s just off the top of my head…

You can like or dislike whatever you want. If a comic editor gives an assignment to a writer you dislike, that doesn't mean the editor is unintelligent.

[Matt Rat]

Bringing it back around to MJ, before the thread is derailed even more: what are people’s favorite stories from the marriage era since Slott asserted no one could name one (which, I will point out, is an unfair question because MJ isn’t the star of the book - if the question had been “what are your favorite marriage era stories,”

I love "Until The Stars Turn Cold", it's not only a fine story exploring the incredible love, wit and respect the two have for each despite their ongoing seperation, it's full of some cracking jokes (jokes that actually land) and speaks universal truths about hardships in relations. It's also proof JMS needed to write more rogue stories as Doc Ock is fantastic in this. Why JMS didn't bother much with the classic villains is one of those great frustrations of enjoying his run.

I love a lot of the 2010-2019 newspaper storylines too, shortly after BND was retconned as a bad dream. Roy Thomas confessed he wanted to go back to Peter being single but Stan's enthusiasm for keeping them married rubbed off on him and he well full throttle on making that pairing far healthier and likeable than post-OMD Peter and MJ.

One story that stood out to me during this period was a team-up between MJ, Peter and Rocket Racoon, where MJ's smarts help the two fend off Ronan The Accuser. Around the same time, all Bendis was doing was having MJ check inventory in Iron Man comics. The parallels were staggering regarding how much more MJ was doing in a three panel daily compared to a year's worth of monthly comics.

[TinkerSpider]

The series ran for a long time

Exactly. Marvel’s longest running solo female superhero book is a key achievement of success.

Why do you apparently want to denigrate the accomplishments of one of Marvel’s few solo female headliners so badly?

You can like or dislike whatever you want. If a comic editor gives an assignment to a writer you dislike, that doesn't mean the editor is unintelligent.

Questionable story judgement is questionable story judgement. Has nothing to do with any personal animosity toward a writer, which I don’t have - I doubt any writer kicks puppies for fun - and has everything to do a track record of poorly crafted output, which an editor should have the ability to recognize as such. But to stop yet another ad nauseam carousel, I’ll apologize for intellectual acumen as uncalled for and substitute poor literary and professional judgement instead.

Do you have anything to say about MJ, which is the topic of the thread?

I love "Until The Stars Turn Cold", it's not only a fine story exploring the incredible love, wit and respect the two have for each despite their ongoing seperation, it's full of some cracking jokes (jokes that actually land) and speaks universal truths about hardships in relations. It's also proof JMS needed to write more rogue stories as Doc Ock is fantastic in this. Why JMS didn't bother much with the classic villains is one of those great frustrations of enjoying his run.

I love a lot of the 2010-2019 newspaper storylines too, shortly after BND was retconned as a bad dream. Roy Thomas confessed he wanted to go back to Peter being single but Stan's enthusiasm for keeping them married rubbed off on him and he well full throttle on making that pairing far healthier and likeable than post-OMD Peter and MJ.

One story that stood out to me during this period was a team-up between MJ, Peter and Rocket Racoon, where MJ's smarts help the two fend off Ronan The Accuser. Around the same time, all Bendis was doing was having MJ check inventory in Iron Man comics. The parallels were staggering regarding how much more MJ was doing in a three panel daily compared to a year's worth of monthly comics.

The newspaper strip was indeed a shining beacon during that time!

[K7P5V]

Bringing it back around to MJ, before the thread is derailed even more: what are people’s favorite stories from the marriage era since Slott asserted no one could name one (which, I will point out, is an unfair question because MJ isn’t the star of the book - if the question had been “what are your favorite marriage era stories,” the answer would be far different)?

Here's a few of My All-Time Favorites:

"Venom"







"Cult of Love"







"New Avengers"

[Kanos]

I have many favorite stories with MJ. Every time I read old comics, I find a new favorite story that I didn't know about before. One of them is Spectacular Spider-Man #241, where Mary Jane talks about the loss of her daughter, and in the finale of the issue, she and Peter fly on a web. A very sad and beautiful story.

[Agent Z]

Law & Order huh? I hope he didn't writer something dumb on this level:



(Episode is Intimidation Game).

In his potential defense, Law & Order has a lot of ridiculous episodes, especially SVU. If Gage wrote that, he'd just be sticking to what is expected.

Slott did not set his biases aside. I know people enjoyed his RYV because it was a fairly positive take on MJ & the relationship, plus the readership had been purposefully starved of any positive depictions (and whose fault was that?) so any crumbs were gratefully received:

But his entire point was marriage and a family would cause Peter to become a killer and betray his baseline morality. His entire point was a successful relationship would break the heroic concept of the comic.

He’s wrong, because characters only do what authors make them do. But that was the point of the story.

I never got that message from the story. Admittedly, I've never really cared superheroes having an absolute rule against killing and find most stories that try to enforce it comes across as stupid due to them unintentionally giving strong arguments for why it shouldn't exist.

Slott criticized MCU Spider-Man for using lethal force so who even knows what he's really thinking.

[Matt Rat]

Back in 2021, as a little experiment, I added the marriage and Annie to Amazing Spider-Man#568 (New Ways to Die Part One) to demonstrate you could tell the same stories in BND with Peter and MJ still married. It fit really well.

[Lee]

Exactly. Marvel’s longest running solo female superhero book is a key achievement of success.

Why do you apparently want to denigrate the accomplishments of one of Marvel’s few solo female headliners so badly?

"Spider-Girl is one of Marvel's most successful creations" is an objectively false statement. Marvel has dozens upon dozens of heroes, villains, teams and concepts that are more widely known, have appeared in more comics, have appeared in better selling comics, have appeared in movies, TV shows, video games, have had more merchandise, and have made Marvel more money.

Questionable story judgement is questionable story judgement. Has nothing to do with any personal animosity toward a writer, which I don’t have - I doubt any writer kicks puppies for fun - and has everything to do a track record of poorly crafted output, which an editor should have the ability to recognize as such. But to stop yet another ad nauseam carousel, I’ll apologize for intellectual acumen as uncalled for and substitute poor literary and professional judgement instead.

A Marvel editor giving a small Spider-Man assignment to a former Amazing Spider-Man writer whose long run was frequently one of Marvel's best selling comics is not poor professional judgement.

[Matt Rat]

Lee, kindly stop derailing this thread

The newspaper strip was indeed a shining beacon during that time!

I'm strongly considering continuing it myself sometime, since I'm tight with a couple of industry professionals with really good rates.

Might not be for a while though, I've got a lot of other projects on the go first, but it's a possibility.

[Lee]

Lee, kindly stop derailing this thread.

I'm responding to other people's posts. You brought up the topic of Spider-Girl, another poster said something that was factually incorrect, I responded to that post.

[TinkerSpider]

"Spider-Girl is one of Marvel's most successful creations" is an objectively false statement. Marvel has dozens upon dozens of heroes, villains, teams and concepts that are more widely known, have appeared in more comics, have appeared in better selling comics, have appeared in movies, TV shows, video games, have had more merchandise, and have made Marvel more money.

And she is Marvel’s longest running solo female superhero title, which in a medium very well known for its history of misogyny is a huge achievement considering the strength of those headwinds against her title (not to mention the book is set in an AU, which is another headwind). Should the OP have clarified their statement? Yes. Taken only at face value, the statement is hyperbole. But her title lasting that long IS objectively a success.

Again, why are you seemingly set on denigrating the accomplishments of one of Marvel’s few female leads?

A Marvel editor giving a small Spider-Man assignment to a former Amazing Spider-Man writer whose long run was frequently one of Marvel's best selling comics is not poor professional judgement.

In your opinion.

Not in mine.

Velveeta sells well. No one considers Velveeta to be quality foodstuff.

And hey, maybe some fake cheese is called for in an anthology, like the anchovy on an everything pizza. The real question of judgement is giving an MJ/Peter “love story” to Slott. Like, if he must be included, let him write about the love story between Ock and his ego, a story Slott is well-qualified to tell.

And maybe Slott will surprise us. I will be the first to admit I was wrong. But I doubt it will come to that.

Although I will give editorial credit for delivering, yet, again, buzz. Instead of talking about the exciting gift of stories from talented writers such as Gaiman and Iannucci and Rowell, once again, we’re talking about Slott. Which is so sad IMO but hey, even negative buzz is considered good buzz for Marvel.

Do you have anything to say about MJ, the subject of the thread? You know you can speak on more than one subject per post, right?

I just thought of one of my favorite MJ-centric stories during the marriage - Web of Spider-Man Annual #6, “Eleven Angry Men…and One Angry Woman” by Peter David. MJ is a juror for the trial of a thief whose defense is…he was framed by Spider-Man. Really fun back up story that demonstrates MJ’s wit, strength of character and loyalty to her husband.

[Lee]

And she is Marvel’s longest running solo female superhero title, which in a medium very well known for its history of misogyny is a huge achievement considering the strength of those headwinds against her title (not to mention the book is set in an AU, which is another headwind). Should the OP have clarified their statement? Yes. Taken only at face value, the statement is hyperbole. But her title lasting that long IS objectively a success.

I never said that the Spider-Girl comic series' longevity wasn't an admirable accomplishment. I pointed out that the statement about Spider-Girl being "one of Marvel's most successful creations" was factually incorrect. Spider-Girl, factually, is not one of Marvel's most successful creations. Marvel has dozens and dozens of more successful creations.

There's no deeper discussion to be had here. Someone said something that was incorrect. I pointed out that it was incorrect.

In your opinion.

Not in mine.

Velveeta sells well. No one considers Velveeta to be quality foodstuff.

You said that a Marvel editor greenlighting a Dan Slott written story about Peter and Mary Jane for a Spider-Man anthology is poor professional judgement. What negative impact do you see the decision having on the editor's career? What consequences do you anticipate the editor facing?

Comic editors often hire writers with a proven track record, whose work I don't care for, and those comics often sell well. My personal tastes are irrelevant to the editor's decision, them hiring a writer I don't like doesn't mean that they're doing their job poorly.

Marvel were happy with how Dan Slott's Amazing Spider-Man sold. Marvel were happy with how Dan Slott's Superior Spider-Man sold. Marvel were happy with how Dan Slott's Amazing Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows sold. So why would having a Dan Slott written Peter/MJ story in a Spider-Man anthology be poor professional judgement?

If Velveeta sells well, then the Velveeta people must be making sound business decisions and exercising good professional judgement.

[Kevinroc]

I never said that the Spider-Girl comic series' longevity wasn't an admirable accomplishment. I pointed out that the statement about Spider-Girl being "one of Marvel's most successful creations" was factually incorrect. Spider-Girl, factually, is not one of Marvel's most successful creations. Marvel has dozens and dozens of more successful creations.

There's no deeper discussion to be had here. Someone said something that was incorrect. I pointed out that it was incorrect.

Nobody cares about the "well actually" discussion. You're coming in and demeaning the headline star of Marvel's longest consecutively running female led superhero title. In an appreciation thread dedicated toward her mother. Take your argument somewhere else.

[Lee]

Nobody cares about the "well actually" discussion. You're coming in and demeaning the headline star of Marvel's longest consecutively running female led superhero title. In an appreciation thread dedicated toward her mother. Take your argument somewhere else.

I responded to a post in this thread. It wouldn't make sense to respond to that post in a different thread. Someone made a statement that was incorrect. I pointed out that it was incorrect.

If I said that Mary Jane originally had green hair, that would be false. Someone would be right to correct my error. Once the error is corrected there is nothing further to be added.

[Kevinroc]

I responded to a post in this thread. It wouldn't make sense to respond to that post in a different thread. Someone made a statement that was incorrect. I pointed out that it was incorrect.

If I said that Mary Jane originally had green hair, that would be false. Someone would be right to correct my error. Once the error is corrected there is nothing further to be added.

Your view is anyone claiming Mayday was a successful character because she was the lead of Marvel's longest consecutively running female led superhero title is an "incorrect." Do you see why people might have a problem with this viewpoint?