Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2022

[Celgress]

He did go so far as to say some small part of them would always remember what they had and be eternally tormented by its loss. He's supposed to be the Devil; twisting the knife would not be beneath or beyond him. He even taunted Peter about it during the mercifully brief period Peter was dead in Spider-Man/Deadpool #5, saying that no matter what he did, what he accomplished, it would all be empty and hollow in comparison to what Mephisto had taken from him, which drove Peter into a serious funk for the next several Joe Kelly-written issues of that series....

I could live with the marriage gone but I can't live with the mechanism used to achieve its end. Mephisto's triumph over a top-tier hero who is a paragon of virtue sits wrong with me. I know they later added the Dr. Strange stuff to lessen that blow but it was like putting a new coat of paint on a rotting building. This is why I can never support OMD because Spidey was morally compromised by the story, and Mephisto gained a massive W that will all but certainly never be reversed. Superhero comic books at their core are a morality play OMD runs counter to the purpose of the genre as a whole. It is a far more damaging and damning story than was "Sins Past" or anything that happened in the 1990s "Clone Saga" because those stores distasteful as they were did no lasting damage to the core values of Spider-Man. I can disregard those crapfests without incident but I can't do so for OMB not only because of its lasting impact on the narrative but worst because of what it did to Spidey himself.

[Huntsman Spider]

I could live with the marriage gone but I can't live with the mechanism used to achieve its end. Mephisto's triumph over a top-tier hero who is a paragon of virtue sits wrong with me. I know they later added the Dr. Strange stuff to lessen that blow but it was like putting a new coat of paint on a rotting building. This is why I can never support OMD because Spidey was morally compromised by the story, and Mephisto gained a massive W that will all but certainly never be reversed. Superhero comic books at their core are a morality play OMD runs counter to the purpose of the genre as a whole. It is a far more damaging and damning story than was "Sins Past" or anything that happened in the 1990s "Clone Saga" because those stores distasteful as they were did no lasting damage to the core values of Spider-Man. I can disregard those crapfests without incident but I can't do so for OMB not only because of its lasting impact on the narrative but worst because of what it did to Spidey himself.

Hard same. It's like these people in charge at Marvel don't understand that a paragon of virtue, however imperfect, like Peter Parker making a literal Faustian bargain with the (in-universe equivalent of the) Devil to avoid facing the consequences of his actions (Aunt May losing her life because of a sniper that was only able to target him because he revealed his identity to the world to bolster the pro-registration cause before defecting upon the realization the pro-reg side, as led by his would-be mentor Iron Man, was going deep into downright evil and possibly unforgivable territory to win against Captain America's anti-registration forces during Civil War) is a complete and utter betrayal of the core moral messaging of Spider-Man's mythos. Namely, "with great power, there must also come great responsibility," and when you fail to act responsibly with the power you have, others (inevitably) suffer for it.

[WebLurker]

Hard same. It's like these people in charge at Marvel don't understand that a paragon of virtue, however imperfect, like Peter Parker making a literal Faustian bargain with the (in-universe equivalent of the) Devil to avoid facing the consequences of his actions (Aunt May losing her life because of a sniper that was only able to target him because he revealed his identity to the world to bolster the pro-registration cause before defecting upon the realization the pro-reg side, as led by his would-be mentor Iron Man, was going deep into downright evil and possibly unforgivable territory to win against Captain America's anti-registration forces during Civil War) is a complete and utter betrayal of the core moral messaging of Spider-Man's mythos. Namely, "with great power, there must also come great responsibility," and when you fail to act responsibly with the power you have, others (inevitably) suffer for it.

I think the original point the story was just to erase the marriage and it was a story due to needing an explanation for why a core piece of the franchise's identity was just dropped. The story making sense was secondary to the point.

To be fair, given how many different authors work on these franchises, I think there does come a point to just acknowledge that not all of the pieces will be a perfect fit and some just will not work.

[Frontier]

At this point I'm just hoping that the upcoming mini has a good writer (Cough)McKay(Cough) who knows how to write MJ well and respectfully...and won't @#$% on her relationship with Peter even though they're not together now.

Although paired with Felicia I feel like MJ is going to the toe the line between civilian and criminal. Beyond the fact that she helped sell a film made through fraud and actually got away with it .

[Kevinroc]

At this point I'm just hoping that the upcoming mini has a good writer (Cough)McKay(Cough) who knows how to write MJ well and respectfully...and won't @#$% on her relationship with Peter even though they're not together now.

Although paired with Felicia I feel like MJ is going to the toe the line between civilian and criminal. Beyond the fact that she helped sell a film made through fraud and actually got away with it .

The resolution to the movie plot still gets to you, huh?

[Huntsman Spider]

I think the original point the story was just to erase the marriage and it was a story due to needing an explanation for why a core piece of the franchise's identity was just dropped. The story making sense was secondary to the point.

To be fair, given how many different authors work on these franchises, I think there does come a point to just acknowledge that not all of the pieces will be a perfect fit and some just will not work.

That's fair, though I'd say OMD was one of those pieces that just didn't work when taken against the totality of Peter's character and the stories that developed his character.

At this point I'm just hoping that the upcoming mini has a good writer (Cough)McKay(Cough) who knows how to write MJ well and respectfully...and won't @#$% on her relationship with Peter even though they're not together now.

Although paired with Felicia I feel like MJ is going to the toe the line between civilian and criminal. Beyond the fact that she helped sell a film made through fraud and actually got away with it .

The resolution to the movie plot still gets to you, huh?

Hmm, yeah, that is an interesting point, especially given that Peter himself started Nick Spencer's run, which spun off Amazing Mary Jane, being exposed and disgraced as a fraud due to Otto Octavius procuring a doctorate in his name after having coopted his body and life.

[WebLurker]

That's fair, though I'd say OMD was one of those pieces that just didn't work when taken against the totality of Peter's character and the stories that developed his character.

I'd agree. If they needed it to be a deal with the devil retcon, I think it should've been Mary Jane, not Aunt May who Peter was trying to save; it would've been a pretty well-written sadistic choice (either way, Peter loses MJ) and make a lot more sense that Peter would take the deal under those circumstances than the actual one where he stabs his wife in the back to save his aunt who told him not to. While I'm sure the backlash against Marvel would've been the same and the resistance to the marriage being written out would still be ongoing no matter what they did, if it was set up that he did it to save MJ's life, that would be far more understandable and feel a lot less morally bankrupt on his part.

I guess the way I see it, the driving force behind the story was to get rid of the marriage and do it in a way that would let the creators pretend it never happened, with the story making sense and working as a story about these characters being a distant second. So, no wonder it casts a shadow and is considered bad even by lots of people who think the marriage had to go in the first place. For as much as superhero comics love continuity, I guess, given how writers with different agendas take over the story, that I wonder if its best to see stuff like the Spider-Man comics as being a series of soft reboots more so than a single narrative with continuity, if that makes any sense.

[Frontier]

The resolution to the movie plot still gets to you, huh?

Or the lack of one .

[Matt Rat]

Sneak peak at a future storyline in the Unofficial ASM Newspaper Strip

[Lee]

I'd agree. If they needed it to be a deal with the devil retcon, I think it should've been Mary Jane, not Aunt May who Peter was trying to save; it would've been a pretty well-written sadistic choice (either way, Peter loses MJ) and make a lot more sense that Peter would take the deal under those circumstances than the actual one where he stabs his wife in the back to save his aunt who told him not to. While I'm sure the backlash against Marvel would've been the same and the resistance to the marriage being written out would still be ongoing no matter what they did, if it was set up that he did it to save MJ's life, that would be far more understandable and feel a lot less morally bankrupt on his part.

That could have worked as a story, but it would have taken autonomy away from Mary Jane, whereas Quesada wanted it to be a decision they both made.

[Frontier]

Sneak peak at a future storyline in the Unofficial ASM Newspaper Strip

Looking as fab as ever .

[TinkerSpider]

That could have worked as a story, but it would have taken autonomy away from Mary Jane, whereas Quesada wanted it to be a decision they both made.

Yeah Quesada may have said that but he takes away her agency in OMIT when only Peter makes the decision that MJ should know his secret so I highly doubt his primary concern is ensuring she has a say.

In fact, Quesada makes taking the deal with Mephisto primarily MJ’s decision in OMIT - telling Mephisto Peter will not agree unless she tells Peter to - and since comic book fandoms are not exactly bastions of pro-women attitudes, it’s been used to tear down and attack her character ever since. Quesada also makes MJ as a liar as she says their love is strong enough to overcome whatever Mephisto can do but, oops, wrong MJ. So again, propping up MJ as a character is not even near the top of the list for Joe. She’s just a plot device to make Peter to go through with it.

Peter makes decisions every day that can be seen as infringing on people’s autonomy by saving their lives without asking them for their express consent. When people are unconscious and life saving measures are taken without waiting for them to wake up and sign off, that’s usually seen as a GOOD thing. Peter would have been MJ’s next of kin and thus authorized and trusted to make decisions in case she is incapacitated in the first place,so it would have perfectly permissible and legal for him to do so.

And by making the deal with Mephisto, Peter spits on Aunt May’s agency. He expressly and selfishly ignores her directives.

[Matt Rat]

Quesada also makes MJ as a liar as she says their love is strong enough to overcome whatever Mephisto can do but, oops, wrong MJ..

Not really. Spencer's run proved MJ right. And comic book time basically means only a year or so had passed since OMD, so they weren't apart long. They only broke up again because another supernatural being intervened in their lives at the end of Beyond, and who knows how much agency has been taken now

[TinkerSpider]

Not really. Spencer's run proved MJ right. And comic book time basically means only a year or so had passed since OMD, so they weren't apart long. They only broke up again because another supernatural being intervened in their lives at the end of Beyond, and who knows how much agency has been taken now

RIght, they're not together now. So their love still isn't strong enough to break Mephisto.

[Lee]

Irrelevant. Quesada specifically wanted the deal in OMD to be a joint decision made by Peter and Mary Jane. That particular plot point in that particular story.