Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2022

[Matt Rat]

RIght, they're not together now. So their love still isn't strong enough to break Mephisto.

My point was their love was enough to overcome Mephisto, now the challenge is to overcome whatever came to visit them in Beyond.

[TinkerSpider]

My point was their love was enough to overcome Mephisto, now the challenge is to overcome whatever came to visit them in Beyond.

IMO I don't think they've overcome Mephisto at all, and that point was made at the end of Spencer's run as Mephisto has still prevented their daughter from being born (or whoever the redheaded woman in a Spider costume was). But I can see why that's your opinion.

And for all we know, the deus ex machina was sent by Mephisto. However, that appears to be a plot point Wells might be content to drop, since the deus ex machina hasn't been referenced at all since. We'll see.

Irrelevant. Quesada specifically wanted the deal in OMD to be a joint decision made by Peter and Mary Jane. That particular plot point in that particular story.

Intent is not execution. What is on the page in OMIT, which is the sequel, is MJ actually made the decision and Peter went along with what she decided. Also, OMD/OMIT is a clear example of Peter deliberately, knowingly and selfishly taking away Aunt May's agency.

[WebLurker]

That could have worked as a story, but it would have taken autonomy away from Mary Jane, whereas Quesada wanted it to be a decision they both made.

Quesada should've stuck to being an artist.

Quesada also makes MJ as a liar as she says their love is strong enough to overcome whatever Mephisto can do but, oops, wrong MJ.

I think that was always a false promise to fans who were against the retcon to keep them hoping it was a temporary status quo and continue to buy.

[TinkerSpider]

Quesada should've stuck to being an artist.



I think that was always a false promise to fans who were against the retcon to keep them hoping it was a temporary status quo and continue to buy.

Yep and yep.

[Matt Rat]

I think that was always a false promise to fans who were against the retcon to keep them hoping it was a temporary status quo and continue to buy.

"Nothing permanent will ever happen to these characters"

-Zeb Wells, August 2022

[Huntsman Spider]

I'd agree. If they needed it to be a deal with the devil retcon, I think it should've been Mary Jane, not Aunt May who Peter was trying to save; it would've been a pretty well-written sadistic choice (either way, Peter loses MJ) and make a lot more sense that Peter would take the deal under those circumstances than the actual one where he stabs his wife in the back to save his aunt who told him not to. While I'm sure the backlash against Marvel would've been the same and the resistance to the marriage being written out would still be ongoing no matter what they did, if it was set up that he did it to save MJ's life, that would be far more understandable and feel a lot less morally bankrupt on his part.

I guess the way I see it, the driving force behind the story was to get rid of the marriage and do it in a way that would let the creators pretend it never happened, with the story making sense and working as a story about these characters being a distant second. So, no wonder it casts a shadow and is considered bad even by lots of people who think the marriage had to go in the first place. For as much as superhero comics love continuity, I guess, given how writers with different agendas take over the story, that I wonder if its best to see stuff like the Spider-Man comics as being a series of soft reboots more so than a single narrative with continuity, if that makes any sense.

Yeah, cosigning your first paragraph. I'd have also liked it better if it had been Loki Peter made the deal with instead of Mephisto, since at least Loki was set up in an earlier arc of JMS's Amazing and it could have paid off the favor Loki owed Spider-Man for saving Loki's mortal daughter from being possessed by that ancient witch's spirit in a more impactfully bittersweet way, given that Loki's nature as a trickster could easily justify any retroactive changes to Peter's life. Even more, like in No Way Home's ending, Peter could be the only one to remember the world as it used to be and thus forced to live with the knowledge of the love and joy that he had given up in exchange for saving Mary Jane's life, which would make it work better as a tragedy.

Yeah Quesada may have said that but he takes away her agency in OMIT when only Peter makes the decision that MJ should know his secret so I highly doubt his primary concern is ensuring she has a say.

In fact, Quesada makes taking the deal with Mephisto primarily MJ’s decision in OMIT - telling Mephisto Peter will not agree unless she tells Peter to - and since comic book fandoms are not exactly bastions of pro-women attitudes, it’s been used to tear down and attack her character ever since. Quesada also makes MJ as a liar as she says their love is strong enough to overcome whatever Mephisto can do but, oops, wrong MJ. So again, propping up MJ as a character is not even near the top of the list for Joe. She’s just a plot device to make Peter to go through with it.

Peter makes decisions every day that can be seen as infringing on people’s autonomy by saving their lives without asking them for their express consent. When people are unconscious and life saving measures are taken without waiting for them to wake up and sign off, that’s usually seen as a GOOD thing. Peter would have been MJ’s next of kin and thus authorized and trusted to make decisions in case she is incapacitated in the first place,so it would have perfectly permissible and legal for him to do so.

And by making the deal with Mephisto, Peter spits on Aunt May’s agency. He expressly and selfishly ignores her directives.

That's actually a good point as well on the last part, since when Peter was able to communicate with Aunt May's spirit for a bit in one pre-OMD comic, she told him she'd lived a good, long life and she would be more than happy to finally reunite with his Uncle Ben.

[WebLurker]

Yeah, cosigning your first paragraph.

Thanks.

I'd have also liked it better if it had been Loki Peter made the deal with instead of Mephisto, since at least Loki was set up in an earlier arc of JMS's Amazing and it could have paid off the favor Loki owed Spider-Man for saving Loki's mortal daughter from being possessed by that ancient witch's spirit in a more impactfully bittersweet way, given that Loki's nature as a trickster could easily justify any retroactive changes to Peter's life.

Wonder if Marvel would've wanted Loki to be that evil, though?

Even more, like in No Way Home's ending, Peter could be the only one to remember the world as it used to be and thus forced to live with the knowledge of the love and joy that he had given up in exchange for saving Mary Jane's life, which would make it work better as a tragedy.

Maybe. While I can't prove it, I really get the impression that Quesada cared more about getting his retcon than the craftsmanship of the story. Course, I also think giving MJ lines that they could beat it were meant to be false promises to keep marriage fans buying the the post-OMD comics and only serving as an escape hatch in case the retcon caused the line to suffer financially. Long story short, I don't think the comic was never anything other than a means to an end, so I'm not surprised that so many years after the fact, we've got people pointing out how it could've been done better (and had a movie that took the idea but actually did it right).

[Matt Rat]

Maybe. While I can't prove it, I really get the impression that Quesada cared more about getting his retcon than the craftsmanship of the story. Course, I also think giving MJ lines that they could beat it were meant to be false promises to keep marriage fans buying the the post-OMD comics.

Quesada was the one who pitched Peter and MJ getting back together just before he left, so he clearly wanted her promise to ultimately mean something to those readers. It doesn't matter if his successors ultimately walked back on it, the point is MJ's assurances came true and now something else is in the way, but we know they'll overcome that too. Nothing is permanent.

[Lukmendes]

Hey guys, has Paul eaten the kids yet?

[JustLuke]

Hey guys, has Paul eaten the kids yet?

Since Marvel owns the Predator comic license now, I have this irrational need to see a Yautja show up out of nowhere and just rip his skull out of his head.

[Lukmendes]

Since Marvel owns the Predator comic license now, I have this irrational need to see a Yautja show up out of nowhere and just rip his skull out of his head.

The monkey's paw has heard your wish, and now Yautja will rip Paul's skull, and while he's at it, he'll rip Ben's skull too a while after Ben gets his 90's personality back .

[Webhead]

Jokes aside, Spider-Man vs Predator would be a blast.

[TinkerSpider]

Hey guys, has Paul eaten the kids yet?

I think they're waiting until Betty has her baby, then it can be a hat trick of child eating.

[Huntsman Spider]

Jokes aside, Spider-Man vs Predator would be a blast.

Indeed, it would be. Spider-Man could probably detect the Predator with his spider-sense, but keeping alive long enough to match or beat the Predator's viciousness in combat . . . that'd be a challenge worth the price of admission.

[Lukmendes]

I think they're waiting until Betty has her baby, then it can be a hat trick of child eating.

Good point, we've been focusing on Paul too much, maybe Ned will be the one doing the kid eating since a Hobgoblin will show up in a while, and maybe he will eat his own kid so we get a spiritual sequel to the best Spider-Man story, Shed.