Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2022

[Matt Rat]

https://www.cbr.com/10-best-versions...comics-ranked/

Post-OMD MJ and Pre-OMD MJ are considered seperate, rofl.

[Sr. Bungle]

https://www.cbr.com/10-best-versions...comics-ranked/

Post-OMD MJ and Pre-OMD MJ are considered seperate, rofl.

The CBR anti-Lowe campaign continues

[TinkerSpider]

Wasn't aware of that.

Yeah, Gage wrote for Law & Order SVU (not exactly a hotbed of deep characterization), Hawaii 5-0 (same) and Daredevil. He had fairly entry level writer staff positions on the latter two and a handful of “written by”credits.

The "Anti-Marvel" thing was about attractive women in general and not just MJ? 'Cause Spidey has been dating hot women since Betty, so uh, Ditko is Anti-Marvel? Stan Lee made a point to Gwen more beautiful than MJ, so is Stan Lee Anti-Marvel? And is bad haircut MJ "true" Marvel?

Seriously, if that's legit, just another Slott logic that I can't comprehend...

Here’s the full quote:

“Anna is beautiful. When you think of Peter Parker, I wanted to have this big change in the life of what makes Otto different from Peter. And when you read all the Otto Octavius stories of his background, of his growing up, of who he was - and even as Dock Ock - all the women he falls in love with, he sees them for who they are inside.

"Look at Stunner. Look at all these, like, nerdy girls he was dating as Otto. I think that’s something Otto does something better than Peter. He sees people who are truly beautiful and loves them for that.

“And you look at everyone Peter has fallen in love with, and every single one of them is superficially beautiful on the outside. And the reason for that is they’re all created by John Romita Sr., who drew everyone woman beautiful.

“What guy wouldn’t fall for Gwen Stacy or Mary Jane? Or even if he falls in love with like a Deb Whitman, yeah, she’s the girl with glasses, but she’s the girl with glasses who can suddenly take off her glasses and whip out the hair.

“Everyone Peter falls in love with is so classically beautiful, and to me that is anti-Marvel.

“To me, the Marvel Universe is not about perfect people. To me the Marvel Universe — the thing that makes it so much better than any other superhero universe — is the Marvel Universe is the book about people with feet of clay.

“When I read DC Comics, my favorite DC characters that I love the most are the most f***ed-up ones.”

Later on, in the same interview - around 52:10 - he goes on to say “People like the idea of Mary Jane more than they like Mary Jane.” She was “a vibrant character” in the Romita Sr days but when they married her to Peter they loaded her up with backstory and she became someone who sat by the window and worried. He says people who prefer the marriage era basically think of MJ as a “security blanket” but they can’t name a single Mary Jane story they like other than KLH and Matt Fraction’s annual and maybe another here or there. They’re "Sheldon Cooper" - they can’t handle change; but it gets boring if you continue to do it the same way.

The irony of Slott making a case for change when he just finished slamming MJ’s backstory is…there are no words (and he got it wrong - he said her backstory happened after the wedding when Stern and DeFalco did far more to develop her character before the wedding was even an idea). And the irony of Slott saying MJ turned into a character who waited by the window and worried when he wrote her sitting in a fire, passively waiting for rescue and not doing anything to rescue herself is….there really are no words.

And look, Slott isn’t writing the book any more so I wouldn’t even bring it up - I’m very happy to forget he was ever on the book - except Marvel gave him the “enduring love” story in AF 1000, which…I’m speechless. When you think of all the writers who haven’t written Spider-Man but might like to have a chance, or you think of past writers - JM DeMatteis is right there, working on a Ben Reilly story - the mind can’t stop boggling.

[Sr. Bungle]

And look, Slott isn’t writing the book any more so I wouldn’t even bring it up - I’m very happy to forget he was ever on the book - except Marvel gave him the “enduring love” story in AF 1000, which…I’m speechless. When you think of all the writers who haven’t written Spider-Man but might like to have a chance, or you think of past writers - JM DeMatteis is right there, working on a Ben Reilly story - the mind can’t stop boggling.

Michelinie is at hand too, that's pretty disrepectful IMHO

[Webhead]

“Anna is beautiful. When you think of Peter Parker, I wanted to have this big change in the life of what makes Otto different from Peter. And when you read all the Otto Octavius stories of his background, of his growing up, of who he was - and even as Dock Ock - all the women he falls in love with, he sees them for who they are inside.

“To me, the Marvel Universe is not about perfect people. To me the Marvel Universe — the thing that makes it so much better than any other superhero universe — is the Marvel Universe is the book about people with feet of clay.

A noble sentiment behind a lot of words (that physical beauty isn't the most important or the only form of beauty), but writers should really be careful with subjects they can't handle tactfully. Anna Maria was tricked into an intimate relationship by a guy impersonating someone else. Whatever nobility or purity of heart one may argue went right out the window the moment Ock -Ock who Slott himself had written as an unrepentant, genocidal maniac right before Superior- lay a hand on her.

Some of us in this forum have called out, for example, how Dr. Kafka turned into a young hot woman overnight. Holding that against one character instead of recognizing it's a bigger picture issue, is just too silly.

That's not even getting into the contradiction that from his POV, MJ is a bad Marvel character because of being perfect, yet introducing a dysfunctional backstory for her is wrong too.

Finally, if there were only two good marriage stories (KLH and Fraction's), it'd still be two over any post-BND love interest. Again, that speaks more of a creative issue with making relationship-based storytelling interesting, doesn't it?

[Matt Rat]

On whether or not Zedaya will be included in the cast for Holland's fourth film

"That whole group, we hope"

https://deadline.com/2022/05/sony-to...rs-1235024137/

[Tabs]

Finally, if there were only two good marriage stories (KLH and Fraction's), it'd still be two over any post-BND love interest. Again, that speaks more of a creative issue with making relationship-based storytelling interesting, doesn't it?

The logical response to writing love interests as a fantastic escape, really. Certain temporary hookups might have led to interesting writing if they had been allowed to be full characters instead of wish fulfilment.

[Frontier]

On whether or not Zedaya will be included in the cast for Holland's fourth film



https://deadline.com/2022/05/sony-to...rs-1235024137/

I feel like the "old cast" might not be as prominent as the new cast, even if they show up.

[Kevinroc]

I feel like the "old cast" might not be as prominent as the new cast, even if they show up.

I don't think there will be much in the way of a "new cast."

I think people going in expecting Harry and Gwen are going to be disappointed.

[Huntsman Spider]

Thank you. I usually pretend that story doesn't exist, but I can't agree that Peter has never given Mary Jane canon reason to reconsider their life together. I understand the complaints over BND MJ's portrayal and share many of them. She's OOC. I agree. What I can't agree on is that Mary Jane is now a bad person. That life is extremely difficult and even the strongest person is entitled to doubts. Peter thought about retiring often enough.

Wow. That reminds me how much introspective writing we missed because Marvel realized they could use an established villain of Peter Parker, a hero who supported Registration before he was against it, as a shadow archetype for Tony Stark. All she had to do was turn on the TV and there's the person responsible for destroying her life and the lives of everyone in the coffee bean gang. The public knows Osborn killed people yet the green goblin is treated like a hero by almost everyone on national television. If I were in comics, I'd have J.M. DeMatteis to write a flashback one-shot from her perspective. Mary Jane's life f***ing sucks.

You make a very excellent and very heartbreaking point there. We've mostly thought about Dark Reign in context of how it affected Peter (and Harry, since Harry was Norman's son), but Mary Jane's perspective, being about equally close to Peter, Harry, and (the late, lamented) Gwen, went completely ignored and unaddressed. Real shame.

https://www.cbr.com/10-best-versions...comics-ranked/

Post-OMD MJ and Pre-OMD MJ are considered seperate, rofl.

The CBR anti-Lowe campaign continues

Indeed. And yes, OMD is basically the Crisis on Infinite Earths or Flashpoint of Spider-Man.

[WebLurker]

Yeah, Gage wrote for Law & Order SVU (not exactly a hotbed of deep characterization), Hawaii 5-0 (same) and Daredevil. He had fairly entry level writer staff positions on the latter two and a handful of “written by”credits.




Here’s the full quote:

“Anna is beautiful. When you think of Peter Parker, I wanted to have this big change in the life of what makes Otto different from Peter. And when you read all the Otto Octavius stories of his background, of his growing up, of who he was - and even as Dock Ock - all the women he falls in love with, he sees them for who they are inside.

"Look at Stunner. Look at all these, like, nerdy girls he was dating as Otto. I think that’s something Otto does something better than Peter. He sees people who are truly beautiful and loves them for that.

“And you look at everyone Peter has fallen in love with, and every single one of them is superficially beautiful on the outside. And the reason for that is they’re all created by John Romita Sr., who drew everyone woman beautiful.

“What guy wouldn’t fall for Gwen Stacy or Mary Jane? Or even if he falls in love with like a Deb Whitman, yeah, she’s the girl with glasses, but she’s the girl with glasses who can suddenly take off her glasses and whip out the hair.

“Everyone Peter falls in love with is so classically beautiful, and to me that is anti-Marvel.

“To me, the Marvel Universe is not about perfect people. To me the Marvel Universe — the thing that makes it so much better than any other superhero universe — is the Marvel Universe is the book about people with feet of clay.

“When I read DC Comics, my favorite DC characters that I love the most are the most f***ed-up ones.”

Later on, in the same interview - around 52:10 - he goes on to say “People like the idea of Mary Jane more than they like Mary Jane.” She was “a vibrant character” in the Romita Sr days but when they married her to Peter they loaded her up with backstory and she became someone who sat by the window and worried. He says people who prefer the marriage era basically think of MJ as a “security blanket” but they can’t name a single Mary Jane story they like other than KLH and Matt Fraction’s annual and maybe another here or there. They’re "Sheldon Cooper" - they can’t handle change; but it gets boring if you continue to do it the same way.

The irony of Slott making a case for change when he just finished slamming MJ’s backstory is…there are no words (and he got it wrong - he said her backstory happened after the wedding when Stern and DeFalco did far more to develop her character before the wedding was even an idea). And the irony of Slott saying MJ turned into a character who waited by the window and worried when he wrote her sitting in a fire, passively waiting for rescue and not doing anything to rescue herself is….there really are no words.

And look, Slott isn’t writing the book any more so I wouldn’t even bring it up - I’m very happy to forget he was ever on the book - except Marvel gave him the “enduring love” story in AF 1000, which…I’m speechless. When you think of all the writers who haven’t written Spider-Man but might like to have a chance, or you think of past writers - JM DeMatteis is right there, working on a Ben Reilly story - the mind can’t stop boggling.

Really does make you wonder why he got assigned to the story.

[Lukmendes]

Yeah, Gage wrote for Law & Order SVU (not exactly a hotbed of deep characterization), Hawaii 5-0 (same) and Daredevil. He had fairly entry level writer staff positions on the latter two and a handful of “written by”credits.

Law & Order huh? I hope he didn't writer something dumb on this level:



(Episode is Intimidation Game).

Here’s the full quote:

“Anna is beautiful. When you think of Peter Parker, I wanted to have this big change in the life of what makes Otto different from Peter. And when you read all the Otto Octavius stories of his background, of his growing up, of who he was - and even as Dock Ock - all the women he falls in love with, he sees them for who they are inside.

"Look at Stunner. Look at all these, like, nerdy girls he was dating as Otto. I think that’s something Otto does something better than Peter. He sees people who are truly beautiful and loves them for that.

“And you look at everyone Peter has fallen in love with, and every single one of them is superficially beautiful on the outside. And the reason for that is they’re all created by John Romita Sr., who drew everyone woman beautiful.

“What guy wouldn’t fall for Gwen Stacy or Mary Jane? Or even if he falls in love with like a Deb Whitman, yeah, she’s the girl with glasses, but she’s the girl with glasses who can suddenly take off her glasses and whip out the hair.

“Everyone Peter falls in love with is so classically beautiful, and to me that is anti-Marvel.

“To me, the Marvel Universe is not about perfect people. To me the Marvel Universe — the thing that makes it so much better than any other superhero universe — is the Marvel Universe is the book about people with feet of clay.

“When I read DC Comics, my favorite DC characters that I love the most are the most f***ed-up ones.”

Later on, in the same interview - around 52:10 - he goes on to say “People like the idea of Mary Jane more than they like Mary Jane.” She was “a vibrant character” in the Romita Sr days but when they married her to Peter they loaded her up with backstory and she became someone who sat by the window and worried. He says people who prefer the marriage era basically think of MJ as a “security blanket” but they can’t name a single Mary Jane story they like other than KLH and Matt Fraction’s annual and maybe another here or there. They’re "Sheldon Cooper" - they can’t handle change; but it gets boring if you continue to do it the same way.

While I can't name specific stories, the way she's written by DeMatteis, occasionally in early Clone Saga, a lot of JMS' run, Spencer's run in the few times she shows up are all nice moments she has.

Slott talks like all she did was be Spidey's wife when the stories let her have development, and more than once when Spidey wanted to move away because of some villain (Like Harry), MJ replied with annoyance by basically saying "Our life isn't just about you.".

The irony of Slott making a case for change when he just finished slamming MJ’s backstory is…there are no words (and he got it wrong - he said her backstory happened after the wedding when Stern and DeFalco did far more to develop her character before the wedding was even an idea).

It's a questionable mistake for him to make, Slott probably knows far more continuity trivia about me but, MJ getting her background developed happened about 40 issues before Spidey asked to marry her again lol.

And the irony of Slott saying MJ turned into a character who waited by the window and worried when he wrote her sitting in a fire, passively waiting for rescue and not doing anything to rescue herself is….there really are no words.

BND people are like that, talk **** about MJ for doing X thing, and then they write her doing X thing lol.

And look, Slott isn’t writing the book any more so I wouldn’t even bring it up - I’m very happy to forget he was ever on the book - except Marvel gave him the “enduring love” story in AF 1000, which…I’m speechless. When you think of all the writers who haven’t written Spider-Man but might like to have a chance, or you think of past writers - JM DeMatteis is right there, working on a Ben Reilly story - the mind can’t stop boggling.

Really does make you wonder why he got assigned to the story.

Marvel for whatever reason lets damaging writers like this have significant amount of control over characters.

Look at Jason Aaron, he's still continuing his fanfiction about Phoenix being Thor's mother when Cates retconned Gaea into being his mother again, despite Aaron not even writing Thor anymore, Marvel lets him continue this nonsense lol.

I doubt it's anything besides being stubborn too, 'cause Thor fans hate it, and Phoenix fans hate it too lol.

So yeah, for whatever reason Marvel lets those people do such things, can't understand why, maybe it's the Brevoort method but, in a comic to celebrat Spidey? Sheesh...

But who knows, maybe Slott will manage to write something cool, I doubt he will, but who knows.

[Starrius]

https://www.cbr.com/10-best-versions...comics-ranked/

Post-OMD MJ and Pre-OMD MJ are considered seperate, rofl.

The article writer wrote that Peter and Mary Jane got back together again right before Peter made the ultimate sacrifice in Life Story.

That's incorrect.

When Peter and Mary Jane got back together again, they were little kids.
When Peter died, they were college-age

[WebLurker]

Marvel for whatever reason lets damaging writers like this have significant amount of control over characters.

Look at Jason Aaron, he's still continuing his fanfiction about Phoenix being Thor's mother when Cates retconned Gaea into being his mother again, despite Aaron not even writing Thor anymore, Marvel lets him continue this nonsense lol.

First I heard of that (beyond that Generations set showing that Odin and the Phoenix Force had been an item in the past). That would be something that would be ideally hashed out and stuck with across the board.

I doubt it's anything besides being stubborn too, 'cause Thor fans hate it, and Phoenix fans hate it too lol.

Why would the Marvel brass want to make readers mad? Seems more likely to be something along the lines of a miscommunication or something.

So yeah, for whatever reason Marvel lets those people do such things, can't understand why, maybe it's the Brevoort method but, in a comic to celebrat Spidey? Sheesh...

Unless Slott asked for that story or something. I mean, as noted above it's highly unlikely that the Powers That Be want to tick off their readers and/or damage the brand. You do get exceptions (it is on record that at DC for awhile, certain people in charge hated fan-favorite Batman character Cassandra Cain and tried to erase her for good just because of that bias), but I think it's easier for it to feel like the publishers are trying to dunk on the fans than it is for it to actually be happening.

But who knows, maybe Slott will manage to write something cool, I doubt he will, but who knows.

Well, he did make it work with the RYV story, so he can do it. I mean, if it wasn't for his spotty work on the main series, I doubt we'd be having this conversation (while it might be odd on paper to have someone who dislikes the Peter/MJ marriage write a story on the subject, it's not a problem if they're willing to set their biases aside and give their best at the assignment).

[Matt Rat]

The article writer wrote that Peter and Mary Jane got back together again right before Peter made the ultimate sacrifice in Life Story.

That's incorrect.

When Peter and Mary Jane got back together again, they were little kids.
When Peter died, they were college-age

Life Story isn't the Ultimate universe