Sandra Wu-san: Lady Shiva Appreciation Thread 2022

[John Venus]

Link to previous thread: https://community.cbr.com/showthread...reciation-2021

[John Venus]

By Marcio Takara:

[John Venus]

By Kevin Wada:



Shiva and Talia by Denise Zhang https://twitter.com/DeniseFanta/stat...7616/photo/2):



By Jeanette Eileen Widjaja (https://twitter.com/eileenwdj/status...4322/photo/2):

[John Venus]

Shiva vs Cass (this is my favourite Shiva design):

[John Venus]

What is Shiva's ethnicity? (Link: https://dragcnlady.tumblr.com/post/1...s-up-on-tumblr)

Part 1:

What Ethnicity is Lady Shiva?

Every once in awhile a post pops up on tumblr discussing at length what ethnicity Lady Shiva is, mostly in deference to what ethnicity that makes Cassandra Cain. This is not a call-out post, but rather a compilation of facts and my interpretations. I’ve done this before, but the post is now lost to the vast expanse of the internet. It’s worth typing up again.

Lady Shiva has suffered through the years as being ambiguously Asian with enough controversial and circuitous backstories that we are provided with both an abundance and lack of an answer. In order to help you all out, I’m just going to provide a case-by-case analysis on Shiva’s appearances and outfits in order to discern her ethnicity. Associated panels posted below; special thank to @judgeanon for reading through this.

TLDR; Lady Shiva was created specifically as a mixture between different Eastern cultures to act as a foil to the more traditionally American heroes. She has been portrayed with mainly Japanese and Chinese influences, but also importantly Southeast Asian, Korean and South Asian references. I firmly believe Lady Shiva is Chinese, but there is evidence to be argued for each and every one of the ethnicities/regions listed above. (My headcanon, what I believe to be the most probable backstory she has can be found by searching ** in this extremely long post.)

Note: being Chinese is not an ethnicity, but rather a nationality. I’m using the main ethnic group in China, the Han, and the word Chinese interchangeably. That being said, there has never been any indication that she is or is not Han vs any other ethnic group native to China.

She originally appeared in Richard Dragon, Kung Fu Fighter #5 in 1975. Going by the name Sandra Woo-san, she appears after the death of her sister Carolyn Woosan in order to enact revenge. She eventually become swayed by the allure of violence and adopts the name Lady Shiva, citing that she is named “for Shiva, the Hindu goddess of destruction!” This is unfortunate, of course, because Shiva in Hindu Mythology is more commonly known as Lord Shiva and is masculine. If you were wondering whether Shiva ascribed to Hindu mythology, I do believe this answers the question.

Like other forms of kungfu in popular culture (exploitation films, Bruce Lee, etc.), there is not really a concentration on describing where Shiva came from. Here are a few facts about her appearance. I have not read all of these issues, but I got most my information from scans.

In this appearance, she is the niece of a man named Mr. Shiruto (a Japanese last name)
In her very first panel, it appears that she is wearing a dress derivative of a red Chinese qipao
She goes to adopt an outfit that resembles a karate gi. Karate is a Japanese martial art, but it is also important to notice that other Asian cultures have adopted similar outfits (Korea, China and other Southeast Asian countries as well). This fact can be disputed as I’m not really sure what this costume is supposed to look like.
Her only weapons were a “samurai sword” (better known as a katana) and throwing stars (also known as shurikens).
Her sister is the goddaughter of Sensei Otomo/O-Sensei (a clearly Japanese name and title)
This may seem obvious, but the title of the book “Kung-fu” is Chinese.

Even her name is strange. The last name Woosan is odd in that Woo/Wu is typically a Chinese/Korean last name, but -san is a Japanese honorific. It would not typically be attached to a last name in the way like the comic described.

Having a English first name/Asian last name is very common in places like Hong Kong, but mainland China, Japan and Korea (basically anywhere where English can be taught in schools) often adopt this same philosophy.
image

We are also treated to this panel, showing off Shiva’s home. Ignoring her incredibly long torso for just one moment, we see a ridiculous amount of knives and a lot of confusing details. I’m not sure what language the writing on the lamp beside her is meant to be, so if anyone can answer that– please help me out. In particular, I can see a Indonesian kris knife in the background, a Chinese dao, bangles like those worn in Hindu culture. There’s an vibe to it that I would classify as ‘Arabic’, supported somewhat by the patterns of fabric and window.
image

I don’t think Dennis O’Neil or Ric Estrada meant anything by this confusing jumble of influences. I attribute it to being well-intentioned but lacking of knowledge. However, most of her actions and influences point to her being Japanese or, less likely, a mix between Chinese and Japanese.

In other words, she got off to a rocky start.

While all this is interesting, Shiva would undergo a very large change in her second appearance, The Question, also written by Dennis O’Neil in 1987. This is probably the most prolific early appearance of Lady Shiva and most likely established her as a recurring character in the DC mythos. If you have not read it, I strongly recommend you pick it up. It is one of my favorite comics ever.

Entitled The Question Vol 1: Zen and the Art of Violence it saw a focus on the development of Shiva’s character, but not actually her heritage. At times, we would see a favoring towards South Asian culture: she is depicted with a bindi, wearing bangles and, of course, calling herself Shiva.

It is interesting to note that she can also be seen wearing bangles in some of her 70s appearances as well.
image


However, this is only short-lived. Her appearances aside from these stay true to her East Asian sphere of influence. She writes a letter in complete Mandarin- possibly the most compelling evidence for her ethnicity to be Chinese. She maintains her ties to Sensei Otomo and, while mainly depicted focusing on hand-to-hand combat, uses another traditional Japanese weapon- a sai.
image

Even the title references her connection to Japan/China: Zen is a Japanese term for a branch of Buddhism common in Japan, China, Vietnam and Korea.

I personally think her beliefs correspond more with Tao, supported in anecdotal evidence in Blackest Night written by O’Neil and Greg Rucka in 2009. Other than philosophy, Tao is more inherently Chinese. Because this mindset is so specific to Chinese culture, I have a hard time seeing Shiva being anything else.

(( I believe the term Zen is used as the title, because it is more widely known in Western culture and has a connotation to it that Tao does not (due to unfamiliarity))

For these reasons, I strongly see a shift towards this incarnation of Shiva being mostly Chinese.

It is also interesting to note that her appearance here is markedly similar to wuxia fiction, also a uniquely Chinese element. Also called knight-errant literature, wuxia fiction typically showcases a character with a strong moral code though ambiguous morality performing superhuman tasks through an understanding of the chi- a term encompassing the mind and body. This describes Lady Shiva exactly. Most stories involving her draw from this genre. If you’ve read any of her appearances, it is clear she takes her cues from hallmarks of Chinese literature, Chinese martial arts and other culture-specific details. Dennis O’Neil’s Question run is the beginning of that.

Dennis O’Neil also writes her in Fables a crossover with the Question, Green Arrow and Batman, but I am saving the analysis of that for later as I personally see it a resolution to the question of Shiva’s ethnicity. In it, Shiva cares for Sensei Otomo as they complete one last quest together, teaching each of the three heroes a valuable lesson.

It is pretty much the last of any of Shiva’s main roles until the turn of the century. After this point (1988-1998ish), Lady Shiva begins to drift incredibly both in character, costume design, appearance. She begins to become more stereotypically ‘Asian’, becoming the archetype of a dragon lady and mainly serving to train heroes rather than have plotlines of her own. You can see a variety of her appearances below.
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She appears in A Death in the Family in 1988 as a possibility to be Jason Todd’s mother (the fact that she is even considered has an interesting effect on Jason’s ethnicity). She wears a black jumpsuit/red go-go boot combo that doesn’t really say anything about her background. She also appears in Robin vol 1 in 1991 with a variety of outfits.

She uses nunchaku, gives Tim his bo staff (both Japanese names for weapons that are used in Japan/Korea/China/Vietnam) and also fights with escrima sticks. However, by this time, it is established that she prides herself in going around the world to learn martial arts and weapon techniques indigenous to specific regions, so this does not truly make any statements.

Most of her appearances in this time usually have her wearing the same outfit as in A Death in the Family. Birds of Prey: Manhunt in 1996 shows her in clothes that are clearly based on stereotypical Chinese fashion, note the red color, the mandarin collar, the hanging fabric..etc.

Her most notable appearance during this time is in KnightsEnd (1994), the third chapter of the Knightfall Trilogy. Here she trains Batman after Bane has broken his back and helps Bruce to regain his skills. Her costume is not notable, same as DinF and BOP:Rebirth, but she gives Batman the mask of Tengu, which Wikipedia describes as a “creature found in Japanese folk religion and are also considered a type of Shinto god”. She is also depicted next to Japanese characters on the cover. I assume this means she is meant to Japanese.

[John Venus]

Lady Shiva's Ethnicity Part 2:

She also appears in Hush, but her costume so absurd that they keep on using it. I cannot explain it. It appears again in Superman/Batman Public Enemies. It has a mandarin collar. It’s a jumpsuit. She wears her hair extremely long in this version. I’m including it not because it gives any information other than asianish? probably?, but because I hate it so much that I am pleading with everyone to please stop drawing influences from it.

In 2000, Lady Shiva is reinvented in Batgirl Vol 2, starring our favorite: Cassandra Cain. I’m dividing her appearances into two parts: one with Puckett and Scott describing Cassandra Cain’s first fight with her and one with Gabrych and Garza in which Cass finds out that Shiva is her mother.

In the first half, she has two main outfits. Both are very similar and both are have specifically Chinese influences. In story, she takes on more affectations of Chinese wuxia fiction: bringing Cass back to life with just tea, almost superhuman martial arts skills…etc. This is only emphasized by the fact that she stands next to Chinese calligraphy at one point. While it is implied that the room/banner is not hers, it seems to parallel her standing next to Japanese words in KnightsEnd. Overall, I feel safe in saying that this interpretation is wholly Chinese.

In the second half of the series, Lady Shiva takes on a more shall we say- disco? approach. I can’t really describe it. Most of the Chinese influences are replaced by a more generalized outfit. It feels more like a League of Assassin’s, eastern-influenced costume than anything else. The most important part about this half is that Gabrych rewrote her entire backstory. It is revealed that Shiva grew up in Detroit, presumably as Chinese-American.
image

That should have been the end of it.
Of course, because nothing is ever definite or easy when it comes to Lady Shiva, this backstory is rendered completely useless just a year later when Gail Simone introduces Shiva into the Birds of Prey with her now iconic outfit: a black duster, red qipao shirt, khaki pants and black boots.

In this story, Black Canary and Lady Shiva develop a close relationship. We see the return of O-Sensei, but this time Shiva is mentioned only as a student of his instead of his goddaughter. His favorite student is Black Canary and Shiva plays second fiddle.

Simone retcons all of Gabrych’s and O’Neil’s interpretation of Shiva in order to place Black Canary in the foreground. In her Sensei & Student arc, Black Canary visits Shiva’s hometown while Shiva moonlights as ‘Jade Canary’, a superhero. The reader is then given a new peak behind the mechanism of Lady Shiva.

From what I see, Shiva’s outfit is Chinese. The title ‘Sensei and Student’ uses Japanese. And the backstory that Simone crafts—that Shiva was raised in Southeast Asia (perhaps still China?) in a shantytown and trained to be a martial artist; Lady Shiva now being a title passed down from generation to generation in order to honor the best fighter of the village— is confusing and doesn’t really match up with any vision of character previously.

Shiva now speaks, I think it is Cantonese?? (‘siu jerk jai’ meaning little bird, ‘tag’ meaning pig). I have no confirmation on this at all, please correct me if I am wrong. Smallville wikia says Japanese, but that is not even a direct source and seems dubious.
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Mostly, I just ignore Simone’s backstory.



In New52, Shiva was given a complete redesign. It is clearly derived from samurai/kabuki. She uses knives, swords, and kusarigama. Her visual influences and personality are interesting as they are nothing like her previous incarnations. Mostly, I just ignore this too.

Interestingly enough, I’ve been staring at the center picture below for awhile trying to determine what type of sword it is. Traditional japanese double sword/daisho usually has one larger sword and one shorter sword and are usually either tapered or straight. These look like they fan out at the end or curve like Chinese dao do. Regardless, she is either entirely Japanese or incredibly confused.
image

In other media, it looks like they have the same problems.

In the Birds of Prey television show, she was portrayed by Korean actress Sung-Hi Lee. In Beware the Batman, it appears she has South Asian influences again and is voiced by what appears to be a white woman: Finola Hughes. She appears in the Arkham games with a costume much like the one she wore in Birds of Prey voiced by mixed Chinese-Hawaiian actress (and Lady Deathstrike from the Wolverine Movie/Cheshire from YJ) Kelly Hu. She appears in DC Superhero Girls with a red qipao again, but is voiced by Indonesian actress Tania Gunadi.
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With the exception of Finola Hughes, you could make the case for any one of the actress’/voice actress’ ethnicities to by Shiva’s.

Currently and blessedly, Lady Shiva has returned to Simone’s outfit choice, reflecting a common belief that Shiva is basically Chinese. (picture below edited from Detective Comics 950)
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** I think it is safe to assume that she at least has Chinese ancestry. However, her influences from Japan are not to be ignored. I want to return to Dennis O’Neil’s writing in order to reconcile all these things together.

In Fables, a three part series involving the Question, Green Arrow and Batman, Lady Shiva travels with Sensei Otomo in order to teach each of the heroes something new. In this story, we learn Sensei Otomo’s backstory and from there, we can extrapolate Shiva’s.

I have copied and pasted this paragraph below from Wikipedia’s entry on O-Sensei, because it is concise and clean.

In the year 1895 a Japanese army captain stationed in Manchuria faced a Chinese captive in unarmed combat. Fearing his superior officer would lose the battle, a Japanese soldier shot the captive in the middle of the fight. This horrified the captain, who condemned the action, asserting that disgrace had been brought upon the entire Japanese army for this act. To atone, the captain honored the dying man’s final request, pledging himself to take the man’s place

In memory of the victim, the captain began studying ancient scriptures, practicing the ancient disciplines, becoming a master in many ways. He lived a life pure in its austerity, its discipline and, finally, in its harmony. In 1900, he refused a plea from his wife to return to Japan. He agreed to her last request: “Promise your bones will rest with mine.”

Almost 100 years later, the O-Sensei, as he was now called, had opened a dojo.

From here on is my speculations. Since this dojo is the place where he would be in contact with Sandra/Shiva and Carolyn. I believe that O-Sensei never returned to Japan, staying in Manchuria or Northern China to fulfill his promise. He became a master of Taoist principles and he passed them on to his goddaughter.

Though Sandra may have been Chinese in heritage, Sensei Otomo helped flesh out her world and created the Japanese influences that would help her to live her life. Any of the other influences come from her travels and her attempts to learn different martial arts from all over the world.


…

So yeah, go ahead. Fancast basically anyone you want for the role: Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Assam, Korean, Filipina, Indonesian. Her inception was ambiguous on purpose. You can defend your position. Just don’t make her white.

[Frontier]

Happy New Year to Lady Shiva .

[marhawkman]

I’m not sure what language the writing on the lamp beside her is meant to be, so if anyone can answer that– please help me out.

Looks like it's supposed to be Chinese to me. But ti's a weird calligraphy style and also I can't read it because I don't know enough Chinese.

[Hypo]

By Haining

https://twitter.com/hainingart/statu...83560701480963



https://twitter.com/hainingart/statu...25288100380683

[Mai Zen]

Shiva vs Cass (this is my favourite Shiva design):

I like that design. Personally I hope they retain short hair or bob hair when she becoming Jade Canary as depiction of her. Short hair help The Mistress of Martial Arts dynamic fluid close range battle while also help differentiate her from the common black long hair Female on DC Universe

[marhawkman]

I like that design. Personally I hope they retain short hair or bob hair when she becoming Jade Canary as depiction of her. Short hair help The Mistress of Martial Arts dynamic fluid close range battle while also help differentiate her from the common black long hair Female on DC Universe

Ah yes, the Jade Canary.

[Primal Slayer]

Lady Shivas first live action appearance in Birds of Prey tv series

[Agent Z]

by DenisezzZ

[John Venus]

Lady Shivas first live action appearance in Birds of Prey tv series

Yep. And instead of a martial artist they got a soft core porn model to play her.

[superduperman]

Yep. And instead of a martial artist they got a soft core porn model to play her.

That show had NO budget.