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  1. #2671
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    While I won't come to BMP's defense, I wouldn't say that film did much damage to Hal or at least anymore than what's there from the 2011 film. These animated films are pretty flash in the pan that rather quickly recede to the background when they stop being the "new" DC thing to talk about.

    Not mention none of them come within a mile of the sales they once did.
    I think people mean it more in the sense that it cuts Hal off the "universe" moving forward, plus it revilatized the old rivalries between some Green Lantern fans.

    But yeah, obviously thr Ryan Reynolds thing was infinitely worse.

  2. #2672
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yeah, if the thought process is "we don't care if his character gets thrown to the wolves in a DTV, but associating in with the LGBT stuff is a step too far! We must protect our iconic character at all costs!", then their priorities wouldn't be where they should be. Then again, these are the people who are in charge of Superman, and look how they periodically botch him.

    I don't agree with the common criticism that Hal is outdated because he's a straight while male, at least not any more inherently outdated than his peers. But if there is something intrinsic to his character that made Morrison view him as pansexual that the other Lanterns don't have....why not run with it as a way to refresh him for modern audiences? Evolve or die, etc. All his female love interests wouldn't be invalidated. Who doesn't love a hot space cowboy who is an equal opportunity lay for everyone?
    I think the "outdated" stuff has more to do with his character archetype than anything else and the fact that he shares a mantle with a bunch of other characters so that automatically makes someone else "cooler", combined with the fact that he's the only GL these people can bash with no consequence since they're never taken to task for it. Besides who can take his "straight white maleness" as a legitimate criticism anyway when 99.9% of the popular characters in entertainment culture are straight white males. They bring that up because Hal is the only straight white male in the GL franchise who is an actual threat to their favorites. They don't go after Guy cause he isn't a threat to anybody. While Kyle is still a fan-favorite but I doubt he'd ever be used as the "main" GL again.

    But yes, his sexuality really isn't a deal breaker by any means. I still don't get why that's so important for some people, it's like half of twitter treats Hal as the antichrist, while the other half treats him like a queer icon. lol It's hilarious.
    Last edited by Johnny; 11-24-2022 at 08:59 AM.

  3. #2673
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    Did I miss something? Morrison talked about Hal potentially being pansexual in newsletter, but there was nothing written about it in actual series.
    I believe it was a reference to the scene with Hal and the alien nurse he mentioned having a relationship with in the past. Granted she was still a woman but Morrison wanted to push the notion that Hal's preferences weren't limited to humans of specific gender.


  4. #2674
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yeah, if the thought process is "we don't care if his character gets thrown to the wolves in a DTV, but associating in with the LGBT stuff is a step too far! We must protect our iconic character at all costs!", then their priorities wouldn't be where they should be. Then again, these are the people who are in charge of Superman, and look how they periodically botch him.

    I don't agree with the common criticism that Hal is outdated because he's a straight while male, at least not any more inherently outdated than his peers. But if there is something intrinsic to his character that made Morrison view him as pansexual that the other Lanterns don't have....why not run with it as a way to refresh him for modern audiences? Evolve or die, etc. All his female love interests wouldn't be invalidated. Who doesn't love a hot space cowboy who is an equal opportunity lay for everyone?
    People loved Top Gun Maverick.

  5. #2675
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagre View Post
    I think people mean it more in the sense that it cuts Hal off the "universe" moving forward, plus it revilatized the old rivalries between some Green Lantern fans.

    But yeah, obviously thr Ryan Reynolds thing was infinitely worse.
    It has more to do with the perceived current mindset of DC towards the character. If they're willing to turn him evil without even putting any effort into it in a DTV, what stops them from doing it in the DCEU or the comics again. You can't even do a proper adaptation of Emerald Twilight unless Hal is the main character since that's why it had an impact in the comics to begin with. If Hal was just someone we barely saw around anymore and suddenly he shows up as this bad guy, there's less emotional response to it since the audience is no longer invested in him. In the comics Hal still had redeeming qualities post-ET because that story was told in his perspective and he was still the main GL. In BMP he was a flashback character revealed as the "true" villain and chumped out for no other reason than to prop up the movie's main character. I don't really care it was an animated movie catered to a limited audience, DC doing this to him gives me no hope they plan to treat him any better in other media features, if he's even there.
    Last edited by Johnny; 11-24-2022 at 09:00 AM.

  6. #2676
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    It has more to do with the perceived current mindset of DC towards the character. If they're willing to turn him evil without even putting any effort into it in a DTV, what stops them from doing it in the DCEU or the comics again. You can't even do a proper adaptation of Emerald Twilight unless Hal is the main character since that's why it had an impact in the comics to begin with. If Hal was just someone we barely saw around anymore and suddenly he shows up as this bad guy, there's less emotional response to it since the audience is no longer invested in him. In the comics Hal still had redeeming qualities post-ET because that story was told in his perspective and he was still the main GL. In BMP he was a flashback character revealed as the "true" villain and chumped out for no other reason than to prop up the movie's main character. I don't really care it was an animated movie catered to a limited audience, DC doing this to him gives me no hope they plan to treat him any better in other media features, if he's even there.
    Seems like the current DCU is trying to go for a more "classic," less controversial feel at least.

  7. #2677
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I think the "outdated" stuff has more to do with his character archetype than anything else and the fact that he shares a mantle with a bunch of other characters so that automatically makes someone else "cooler", combined with the fact that he's the only GL these people can bash with no consequence since they're never taken to task for it. Besides who can take his "straight white maleness" as a legitimate criticism anyway when 99.9% of the popular characters in entertainment culture are straight white males. They bring that up because Hal is the only straight white male in the GL franchise who is an actual threat to their favorites. They don't go after Guy cause he isn't a threat to anybody. While Kyle is still a fan-favorite but I doubt he'd ever be used as the "main" GL again.

    But yes, his sexuality really isn't a deal breaker by any means. I still don't get why that's so important for some people, it's like half of twitter treats Hal as the antichrist, while the other half treats him like a queer icon. lol It's hilarious.
    Kyle also isn't white, though wasn't that a later addition? His original run made him come across as another white guy, just younger and "hipper" than Hal.

    Yeah, Hal is subject to two extremes on Twitter. I know which extreme I'd embrace though lol. I side with Morrison's view, it's canon to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I believe it was a reference to the scene with Hal and the alien nurse he mentioned having a relationship with in the past. Granted she was still a woman but Morrison wanted to push the notion that Hal's preferences weren't limited to humans of specific gender.
    There is also the fact that the Anti-lantern was in a romance with Anti-Matter Sinestro. And I think Anti-Lantern was meant to be the Anti-Matter universe equivalent to Hal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    People loved Top Gun Maverick.
    They did, but Top Gun was always Tom Cruise's movie. Hal isn't the only GL. With GL, there was some social media backlash when the 2011 movie came out because people thought they made GL white due to John being popular from the cartoon. It doesn't matter how inaccurate that assessment was, it got backlash all the same. The movie sucking and the character writing for Reynolds as Hal being obnoxious didn't help.

    There would be less pressure in something like Top Gun to take an "outdated" archetype like Maverick and make it work, vs. doing it in a superhero movie where there is already an expectation for diverse Lanterns, with a big portion of the audience expecting the black man to be the lead. It's not fair to Hal, and if a chance was given it could lead to something good and popular. But from as studio perspective, just because Top Gun was a hit doesn't mean GL will be the same.

  8. #2678
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Seems like the current DCU is trying to go for a more "classic," less controversial feel at least.
    From that set of interconnected (Mora?) covers, it seems like DC wants to highlight new legacy characters, without angering fans of the old guard. (the way the idea of 5G did) Classic having your cake and eating it too. Let's hope there's enough room for everyone.

  9. #2679
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    They did, but Top Gun was always Tom Cruise's movie. Hal isn't the only GL. With GL, there was some social media backlash when the 2011 movie came out because people thought they made GL white due to John being popular from the cartoon. It doesn't matter how inaccurate that assessment was, it got backlash all the same. The movie sucking and the character writing for Reynolds as Hal being obnoxious didn't help.

    There would be less pressure in something like Top Gun to take an "outdated" archetype like Maverick and make it work, vs. doing it in a superhero movie where there is already an expectation for diverse Lanterns, with a big portion of the audience expecting the black man to be the lead. It's not fair to Hal, and if a chance was given it could lead to something good and popular. But from as studio perspective, just because Top Gun was a hit doesn't mean GL will be the same.
    The way I see it, there's always a certain level of fan entitlement since Hal was done dirty and as a fan you believe he has to be done justice on the big or small screen and not skipped over or swept under the rug, but that's just not the reality of the situation. The entertainment industry doesn't work that way and if I was a studio executive with no emotional attachment to the character, I wouldn't think he needs to be done justice either. You go after where you think the money are and in this day and age you certainly wouldn't think they are with the Silver Age Lantern with the bad movie, even though he had the most successful GL run a while back. I think this is what I as a fan need to come to terms with if I wish to remain a fan going forward, otherwise if I keep thinking about how Hal "should" be or "must" be treated, it's never going to go anywhere. The fact is he was given a chance at the big time and it failed miserably, even though it was through no fault of his own. I can't expect him to keep getting new chances just because I happen to like the character. I still think Hal will always have a place in the DCU, just not the kind of place you'd think he should have if you became a fan during the character's peak.
    Last edited by Johnny; 11-24-2022 at 02:33 PM.

  10. #2680
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    The way I see it, there's always a certain level of fan entitlement since Hal was done dirty and as a fan you believe he has to be done justice on the big or small screen and not skipped over or swept under the rug, but that's just not the reality of the situation. The entertainment industry doesn't work that way and if I was a studio executive with no emotional attachment to the character, I wouldn't think he needs to be done justice either. You go after where you think the money are and in this day and age you certainly wouldn't think they are with the Silver Age Lantern with the bad movie, even though he had the most successful GL run a while back. I think this is what I as a fan need to come to terms with if I wish to remain a fan going forward, otherwise if I keep thinking about how Hal "should" be or "must" be treated, it's never going to go anywhere. The fact is he was given a chance at the big time and it failed miserably, even though it was through no fault of his own. I can't expect him to keep getting new chances just because I happen to like the character. I still think Hal will always have a place in the DCU, just not the kind of place you'd think he should have if you became a fan during the character's peak.
    Agreed, and it wouldn't be too bad to come to terms with if the last page of Morrison's run was his sendoff. I'd be perfectly content with not much Hal after that because that run would have retired him on a high note.

    But then we get crap like Beware My Power, which just comes across as needless

  11. #2681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    It has more to do with the perceived current mindset of DC towards the character. If they're willing to turn him evil without even putting any effort into it in a DTV, what stops them from doing it in the DCEU or the comics again. You can't even do a proper adaptation of Emerald Twilight unless Hal is the main character since that's why it had an impact in the comics to begin with. If Hal was just someone we barely saw around anymore and suddenly he shows up as this bad guy, there's less emotional response to it since the audience is no longer invested in him. In the comics Hal still had redeeming qualities post-ET because that story was told in his perspective and he was still the main GL. In BMP he was a flashback character revealed as the "true" villain and chumped out for no other reason than to prop up the movie's main character. I don't really care it was an animated movie catered to a limited audience, DC doing this to him gives me no hope they plan to treat him any better in other media features, if he's even there.
    On that I do agree. There was no reason a John Stewart film had to do Hal so dirty, I loathe the Injustice franchise for largely the same reasons. I usually just try to fall back on these films not being the big deals they once where.

  12. #2682
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    On that I do agree. There was no reason a John Stewart film had to do Hal so dirty, I loathe the Injustice franchise for largely the same reasons. I usually just try to fall back on these films not being the big deals they once where.
    Feels like people talk about them as much, although I guess I wasn't as active on internet forums during the "heyday."

  13. #2683

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    The way I see it, there's always a certain level of fan entitlement since Hal was done dirty and as a fan you believe he has to be done justice on the big or small screen and not skipped over or swept under the rug, but that's just not the reality of the situation. The entertainment industry doesn't work that way and if I was a studio executive with no emotional attachment to the character, I wouldn't think he needs to be done justice either. You go after where you think the money are and in this day and age you certainly wouldn't think they are with the Silver Age Lantern with the bad movie, even though he had the most successful GL run a while back. I think this is what I as a fan need to come to terms with if I wish to remain a fan going forward, otherwise if I keep thinking about how Hal "should" be or "must" be treated, it's never going to go anywhere. The fact is he was given a chance at the big time and it failed miserably, even though it was through no fault of his own. I can't expect him to keep getting new chances just because I happen to like the character. I still think Hal will always have a place in the DCU, just not the kind of place you'd think he should have if you became a fan during the character's peak.
    I guess that really depends on how much one thinks the popularity of Hal Jordan at his peak, was the result of simply having a talented writer like Geoff Johns working on the title, or something about the character Hal Jordan himself that makes him popular?

    Three different writers with issue number 1's (I have to check on Venditti) that broke six figures in sales, despite being consistently left off of DC's number 1 team book?!? Forget about the other Green Lanterns, there is simply very few superheroes that have that kind of sales power. .....Is it Hal, or the luck of good writers I don't know, but...

    I do know that when DC or Marvel has attempted to replace a popular hero, (whether it be Johnathan Kent on the Superman title, or X23 taking over Logan) they tend to reverse course, because the brand begins to sink in popularity overall.

    Now I like John Stewart, and I plan on reading his new series, and because it's written by PKJ, I will most likely read it longer than the Hal Jordan run, and I'm banking it will also be more successful than the Hal run, but am I worried that Hal will be permanently replaced by John Stewart, no....because despite being the premier GL for a generation raised on Justice League Unlimited, John Stewart just doesn't have historic track record of selling. Check the numbers of his two lead titles, and his lead in the Green Lantern Corps compared to other GL leads, the numbers just aren't there.

    That's not a swipe at John Stewart, I like him, but that's just the way it is. Out of my top 5 favourite DC superheroes, (which Hal is not one) only one has ever shown any consistent long term sales power, unless your counting team books, and I can't do anything about it.

    So yes, while Hal could have less of a role in the DCU at his peak, (Barring Kyle Rayner) I don't really see him playing second fiddle to another GL in the long run, and if he does, it would most likely be at the destruction of the GL brand at the comic sales level which we are already witnessing. (There currently is no GL title, and were getting GL Mini series)

  14. #2684
    Mighty Member Mantis-Ray's Avatar
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    Its rather sad how the GL franchise has fallen when 10 years ago they could support multiple ongoings, even a fucking Red Lantern comic that lasted 43 issues

    The failure of the movie really did ruin everything

  15. #2685
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nostalgia View Post
    I do know that when DC or Marvel has attempted to replace a popular hero, (whether it be Johnathan Kent on the Superman title, or X23 taking over Logan) they tend to reverse course, because the brand begins to sink in popularity overall.
    I think that in most cases,(certainly not all) it's more like the pendulum swinging back and forth from sales spike to sales spike rather than a "sink" in popularity. They know they can get a potential sales spike by upturning the status quo and introducing something new, (heck, I started buying Green Lantern because I saw Guy in "Legends" and I wanted to know what happened to that GL from "Superfriends") but they know 90% of the time it doesn't last, so they swing the pendulum back the other way for another anticipated sales spike as the IP gets "back to basics". Replacing Hal with Kyle, or Barry with Wally were definitely not intended to be short term, which is why it took so long for things to swing back, and I think that had more to do with editorial preference/long-term IP strategy than sales.

    And the cycles just happen more and more often as time goes on anyway. I don't think Hal will ever go away, though he's caught up in the cycle, with wider circular arcs than the Trinity who have smaller, shorter arcs of going away then coming back.
    Last edited by j9ac9k; 11-25-2022 at 02:34 AM.

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