Hal Jordan: The Green Lantern Appreciation 2022

[Vordan]

I like John, I do, but this sort of thing is why I'm slowly starting to dislike anything DC does with him. It really is starting to feel like the only faith they have in John is to give him other character's storylines or supporting casts.

Of late, he's either cribbing Hal's story or using him as a foil. He's not only splitting up the Hawks, but in JLU they actually made Carter a reincarnating cuckold who stalks Shayera, and now he's muscled in on Kyle's Torchbearer role.

I like John, but **** like this makes the character cancerous. It's like the only thing DC can ever think to do with him is to dunk on other characters.

Why not just tell this story where Hal is dead and a name John has to live up to or surpass without being the villain? Why not just never deal with Hawkman in the Shayera romance, and instead just not even have a Hawkman?


Is this really the movie John fans have been waiting for? "lol Hal turned out to be a complete *******, watch John simultaneously step into his role as Ollie's best friend, Shayera's love interest and Kyle's significance in one fell swoop." Is this really it? Is being a John Stewart fan just about cobbling together elements from other characters to fill the void writers don't want to fill with original content? I like Hal. I like John. I have gotten a lot of great Hal stories and am A-okay letting him sit on the bench a while so John can get his due.

But why does John getting his due always involve other characters getting strip mined or turned heel?

Bluntly as possible yes, this is their dream movie lol, or at least it’s a certain portion of the John fanbase’s dream movie (as an equal fan of John and Hal it’s a good movie marred by how they treated Hal). Many believe that John should get to be the “Greatest GL”, and some go even further and think he should be the only GL because that’s what they thought he was growing up watching the DCAU. BMP is for that group, John gets everything the way some believe he’s entitled to.

Let’s be real a lot of the complaining about Hal comes not from people objecting at the idea of one of the Lanterns standing above the rest, but simply because the “Greatest” isn’t their favorite. You’re not going to see many John fans complain about preferential treatment now that it’s their turn to claim the spotlight.

[HsssH]

That was plainly obvious with Thorne's pedantic arguments about how technically John is now not GL so it is ok for him to be the greatest, while every other GL should be equal.

[Johnny]

It sounds worse than ET to be honest. At least there, you could somewhat sympathize with Hal and say he was acting out of grief. This just makes him look bad, and I don't think the mention of Parallax as a corrupting entity mitigates the harm if he has no redemptive moment. It just makes him look like someone who would easily give in to a power fantasy.

Yeah it doesn't mitigate it, it does the opposite since it turns the space bug retcon on its head. In the original Rebirth series, Hal was unaware that he was compromised and he was shocked to find out that him and Parallax were two separate entities. This version knows he was infected from the start and just doesn't care, he revels in it since he thinks he was weak in the past. I don't know who this character is. It's the Jake Skywalker stuff all over again.

[Johnny]

I really like John and want to support him, wish they hadn’t gone this route. Only reason for hope I guess is maybe they’ll do an adaption of Spectre Hal, but I’m not holding my breath on that. At least the CoIE crossover trilogy coming next year might feature better takes on Hal.

I'm not sure if it makes sense to do The Spectre since this version of Hal was not exactly repentant. "Our" Hal became the Spectre in the comics since he wanted redemption and the spirit saw that in him, this "Hal" doesn't care. And the funny thing is the "twist" they tried to sell in the end wasn't even any actual twist since we saw he was a cold-blooded murderer even before the supposed revelation.

[Robanker]

Cross-posted from the John thread, my thoughts:

Watched the movie. I'll put my thoughts under spoilers, but I think you'll generally enjoy this as a John fan if you don't mind the third act just deciding it has to conclude with little fanfare.

spoilers:

I'll say this right off the bat, they hit a very good stride for John's character. Reserved, but not emotionless. They give him pretty believable reactions and his character maintains a throughline, losing his disillusionment by the end (highlighted best by his disrespecting and later appreciating the GL Oath). Green Arrow was pretty great in this, and if you're sore over Strange Adventures, this was basically a big "**** you" to that book with respect to Adam Strange. More importantly, John's intelligent but not an instant savant with the ring. Most his initial constructs are clear reactions, he doesn't have control on the ring initially and we get transition scenes of him practicing-- something you want to see a rookie do. It's very well-set up, and John never has a moment you think he's in any way unworthy. He's simply learning to use his ring and grows better with it as the film progresses, though as I'll mention later, he basically goes from "first day on the job" to "greatest ever" over the course of one pep talk, which was a huge let down. They pepper the film with his PTSD, which is highly effective, so you hope it will culminate in using his experiences and trauma to overcome the threat. Instead, well, he does that thing Flash and GL stories do when they don't know how to resolve the plot: they just dig deep and find more speed/will and blow up the bad guy because we've only got 5 minutes left of budget. Ollie is used pretty well too. He's good at what he does, it's just not very effective in space. He feels in over his head and along mostly as the experienced superhero who wants to find out what happened to his friend, but heavy lifting he does not do and that's very much appreciated. This isn't his story one bit, and he never really upstages John. He's support, which is all he should be. The creators continue to get more comfortable with the art style, and those lamenting John's costume rejoice-- the movie notes they can adjust the costumes at will, so presumably we'll see him change costumes in the future. Speaking of designs, this may be my favorite ever for Vixen. She looks phenomenal for the minute she's in this. Anyone hoping to see a Justice League formation movie, tough luck. They're fully formed and Diana's already on it, so no WW origin either. In all honesty, the first two acts work pretty well, John getting Kyle/Hal's fused origin aside. But then there's the third act. Here's the thing. Sinestro and Hal should have been one character named Sinestro and Adam should have just been Hal. This isn't just my sour grapes over Hal getting the villain edit, but it generally doesn't serve much purpose making this Hal other than, well, to **** on him. He's just there as "the former greatest," which is also Sinestro... But Sinestro is instead just some up-jumped stooge who doesn't seem to remember anything about how rings work. He casually sets up his own death very clumsily. It makes Sinestro look bad, and it makes Hal look bad. It doesn't make John look good beating Sinestro when he's so goddamn stupid he basically kills himself. It robs John of that victory, much like Hal turning into a God with 12 rings and a space demon losing to what's essentially a GL with a pep talk. It doesn't make John look strong so much as Hal look like a bitch. It's just bad writing where they don't know how else to resolve the plot so they just hide in the vague space where willpower/speedforce Eifel Tower the idea of an earned conclusion and we're all sorer for it. Hal gets corrupted by Parallax and Sinestro immediately simps for him, which doesn't really sound like Sinestro either. What's worse is they don't even use Hal's Parallax armor. It's just lazy green space hobo with power lines for emphasis and a target for Ollie to later shoot. Hal is elevated to godhood, wielding 12 power rings and Parallax to boot... which John matches with simply one ring and some gumption because we need to wrap this **** up. Then Ollie shoots Hal in the back from in front of him. I'm not kidding. The arrow comes through his chest from behind, and he falls on top of John who was in front of Ollie, but Ollie is facing them from their front. Boomerang arrow, I guess? Then Hal dies, doubles down on being a dickhead, and Adam Strange saves the day, and suddenly Shayera (who has shown nothing but general hostility or mild indifference to everyone all movie) is a big fan of John's and hopes to see him again as he and Green Arrow become friends. I'm not bringing this up because of Hal's heel turn so much as the movie is pretty careful for the first two acts to not try and set up John as the chosen one who will get a massive power boost at the 11th hour and then exactly does that before trying to just leave the board with all the pieces fans want to see but it didn't really earn. There's no Hawkman, which is good. He's not necessary, but there's also no real scene to set up any tension or even friendship between John and Shayera. Ollie and John do a lot of bonding over the film, so I'll say that's a very well-earned friendship by the end. Shayera? Not really. Shayera herself is something of a non-character. She's just a Thanagarian, no more or less, and has no development other than being able to admit that someone from the other side killing himself to save her planet was brave. And that she hopes to see John again, which is out of left field for anyone not shipping them from JL/JLU. She and Adam are there primarily to be mouthpieces for Rann/Thanagar, but Adam gets to be a hero on his own right. Shayera never becomes more than a soldier with no distinction. Honestly, the real ship in this movie is Ollie/John. There's genuine friendship formed by the end. I really enjoyed them over the course of it. Likewise, Sardath, Alanna, Hal, Sinestro, Kyle and pretty much the entire GLC kind of get the shaft-- and most of it in that third act. If your name isn't Oliver Queen or Adam Strange, honestly, you're in this movie to make John Stewart look good. Nobody else really gets to do anything valuable, and Shayera herself is just there to placate people who want to see her on screen with John, but not actually share any chemistry or bond in any significant way. I wanted to love this movie, but if you just let Hal die in the second act or have him take Adam's place with Sinestro being the big bad, it's overall tighter and generally doesn't make it seem like a layup to make John look good at their expense. This feels a lot like the Gotham by Gaslight adaption in which they needed a heel turn to make it stick... And nobody ends up looking good because of it. Not Jim Gordon. Not Sinestro and not Hal Jordan. John does, but not as a result of his wins so much as his character earlier in the movie. Every time something goes wrong, he stops and thinks about how to move ahead. He observes. He learns. He keeps a cool head. He's very likable. It's just a shame that it gets undone to just hand him the win because he remembered he needs to believe in himself and apparently that's enough to use his single half-empty power ring to overpower the de facto greatest GL on super steroids. They set up Hal so much that John suddenly going from rookie to space messiah is kind of hilarious. This was everything I would have wanted for John for two acts. Kill Hal, let him just be an ideal to surpass, and be done with it. Instead, he shows up to be an ******* and job pretty poorly and the film rushes to a pretty hasty conclusion that's a shame because the setup is generally quite strong for these movies. There's a hilarious bit where Hal goes super saiyan, though. I really enjoyed that for how silly it was. His 70s cop hair goes full glowing yellow and everything.

end of spoilers

I honestly feel let down. The first few acts were strong and this is the most engaging version of John Stewart I've ever seen animated. There's layers to him, he has a genuine hero's journey and we do see him rise and be a hero. I just wish it wasn't such a massive gear shift and such a letdown in how it concludes.

This wasn't it, but like Icarus, it flew pretty close to the sun before burning out. Still, if you can get over spoilers:

Sinestro being completely incompetent and Hal being hyped up and then much the same, making the final battle more of a whimper

end of spoilers, this is pretty strong. Aldis Hodge is a great John Stewart and if anyone has ever called him boring, this movie does a great job dispelling that while also showcasing the John Stewart more modern readers are familiar with.

With some minor edits to the script, this could have been a lot better. Combine the villain role, give Shayera a reason to be in it other than be a mouthpiece for Thanagar and you could have something all GL fans would enjoy.

Instead, it's very uneven but you see where it could have been great.

[HsssH]

I think it is a problem with willpower in general. I was watching Stranger Things latest season and one of my bigger annoyances was that basically all the problems can be solved if Eleven just "tries harder". You know, someone says something nice to you, you remember some moment from your childhood or whatever else and you just get that extra burst of energy that you need to solve the problem.

Sure, good writers usually don't go that road (or if they go there they try to say something more than just the character doing power up), but it is a trap that many weaker writers succumb to.

[Redjack]

That was plainly obvious with Thorne's pedantic arguments about how technically John is now not GL so it is ok for him to be the greatest, while every other GL should be equal.

"Thorne" never said any of that or anything like it.

[Johnny]

I just...I can't even muster up the enthusiasm to complain about this.

I was probably a bigger fan of the Tomorrow-verse than most or at least one of their biggest supporters but this might be my breaking point.

And the sad part is I like John but the fact that I know there are going to be John fans who are going to eat up and justify this just...bothers the heck out of me. Like, I assumed this movie would be a John Stewart fans' wet dream and it sounds like it succeeded on that front more than I could have possibly guessed.

And you were right of course. Shocker

[Johnny]

Both hardcore Hal fans and whatever Kyle fans are left will hate this movie. The GL wars are back on baby !

For what reason though. When DC makes sure that Hal is portrayed out of character, what's there to debate when he's not being judged on his own merit, he's just being deliberately compromised for the sole purpose of propping up another character. This is not a "My fave is better than your fave" thing, it's "Your fave can't compete with my fave cause DC is hellbent on making it so" thing.

[StarSpangledMan]

Both hardcore Hal fans and whatever Kyle fans are left will hate this movie. The GL wars are back on baby !

I wasn't alive for the first one but I will gladly, popcorn in hand, sit out of this one.

[Robanker]

I went into this movie just hoping Hal died heroically, or we never saw the body.

I went into it hoping he dies a hero. That's it. Just kill his ass but let him at least go out with some dignity while setting the stage for John. Was that really so much to ask? If his fake-out death was real in this, I'd be fine with it because I know he needs to be off the table for this story.


Hell, you could have made the sequel into Saving Lantern Jordan where he dies and becomes the Spectre in the stinger while establishing John as the Greatest Lantern. Anything but the maniac villain edit.

I guess he can high five Nazi stooge Aquaman for the villain edit in the Tomorrowverse. What a wonderful table to sit at. :/

[Johnny]

Hard to keep caring about all GLs and GL as a franchise when DC does things like this.

I guess to a degree I'm oddly glad this happened, since if nothing else at least I know what to expect now. I won't approach something GL or JL-related wondering if Hal would make the cut or how he would be portrayed or if he would be left out anymore, since now I know exactly what this DC management thinks of him.

[Mantis-Ray]

Are you fucking serious, they are still treating Hal like ****?

Jesus Christ DC that Ryan Reynolds movie is literally over a decade old, let it go.

And stop obsessively pandering to the DCAU fans through John, that show is even older. God I hate nostalgia.

[Johnny]

I like John, I do, but this sort of thing is why I'm slowly starting to dislike anything DC does with him. It really is starting to feel like the only faith they have in John is to give him other character's storylines or supporting casts.

Of late, he's either cribbing Hal's story or using him as a foil. He's not only splitting up the Hawks, but in JLU they actually made Carter a reincarnating cuckold who stalks Shayera, and now he's muscled in on Kyle's Torchbearer role.

I like John, but **** like this makes the character cancerous. It's like the only thing DC can ever think to do with him is to dunk on other characters.

Why not just tell this story where Hal is dead and a name John has to live up to or surpass without being the villain? Why not just never deal with Hawkman in the Shayera romance, and instead just not even have a Hawkman?


Is this really the movie John fans have been waiting for? "lol Hal turned out to be a complete *******, watch John simultaneously step into his role as Ollie's best friend, Shayera's love interest and Kyle's significance in one fell swoop." Is this really it? Is being a John Stewart fan just about cobbling together elements from other characters to fill the void writers don't want to fill with original content? I like Hal. I like John. I have gotten a lot of great Hal stories and am A-okay letting him sit on the bench a while so John can get his due.

But why does John getting his due always involve other characters getting strip mined or turned heel?

Because he has comparatively very little of his own stuff to offer compared to other characters such as those you mentioned. Which is entirely DC's own fault and not a knock on Johns' character who I think is perfectly capable of being a compelling protagonist as titles like Van Jensen's GLC showed before. But they instead choose the easiest and most amateurish tactics to make sure they prop him up and clearly in their mind that means doing a hit piece on other characters, especially those they see as direct competitors for the "default GL" spot. In which case there's only one real competitor so naturally he will be the one to get the raw deal. This company's business practices are as disgusting as ever, based on the people in charge sometimes you'd have a Wally West or a Dick Grayson who gets **** on, others you'd have a Hal Jordan or a Carter Hall, but the tactics are very much the same.

I went into this movie just hoping Hal died heroically, or we never saw the body.

I went into it hoping he dies a hero. That's it. Just kill his ass but let him at least go out with some dignity while setting the stage for John. Was that really so much to ask? If his fake-out death was real in this, I'd be fine with it because I know he needs to be off the table for this story.


Hell, you could have made the sequel into Saving Lantern Jordan where he dies and becomes the Spectre in the stinger while establishing John as the Greatest Lantern. Anything but the maniac villain edit.

I guess he can high five Nazi stooge Aquaman for the villain edit in the Tomorrowverse. What a wonderful table to sit at. :/

If nothing else, at least that wasn't the "real" Aquaman, it was an Earth-2 version. Here it's not in their interest to have Hal go out with dignity since they didn't want to make him a likeable character, they wanted to destroy him since he's not a priority to them anymore and instead could use him to make the other guy look good, since Hal is the only GL where destroying him has actual consequences for the future direction of the franchise. It's total garbage fest and I still find it hard to believe this is where we're at now. There was a time shortly after the 2011 Green Lantern movie where I thought things could not possibly get any worse. Foolishness.

[SebastianS]

Sad.

After 40+ years of character history, the only way to make John relevant is quite literally to insert him in another character's most recognizable (and far more interesting) origin.