Jason Todd: Robin, Red Hood, Arkham Knight Appreciation 2022

[Aahz]

Battle for the Cowl

Batman and Robin

Brothers in Blood Are all canon. Imagine if fans of all the other Robins/characters decided to pick and choose their canon? It's pathetic.

Are they? Ok with DCs current "Everything is continuty"-nonsense they are.

And I didn't say they are out of continuity, I said they are not worth reading because:
- Jason is poorly written completely out of character compared to how he was written since Flashpoint
- post Flashpoint writers of Jason's Books have for the most part ignored them, and there is no need to read them (or anything else post UTRH) to understand what is going on in Jason post flashpoint books, and can therefore easily be skipped
- Countdown, Brothers in Blood and BftC afaik by most people (and not only Jason's fans) seen as really bad, and therefore I can't recommend anyone to invest time and money into them

If anyone would ask me about a Nightwing deep dive I would also advice to skip basically everything between the death of Block Buster and Thomasis Run, because that crap that was published in between is simply not worth reading.
EDIT: Or maybe a better example I case of Cassandra Cain I would advice to just skip over the whole OYL era and start reading again with her joining the Outsiders.

[RedBird]

I don't understand this mentality where fans try to ignore certain stories just because your favourite doesn't come out looking perfect. Jason fans do this more so than other batfamily fans I've noticed and I wonder why.

Battle for the Cowl

Batman and Robin

Brothers in Blood Are all canon. Imagine if fans of all the other Robins/characters decided to pick and choose their canon? It's pathetic.

Jason has so little actual lore and you guys are so quick to ditch a sizeable chunk of the little he does have because a murderer was shown to be a murderer or because he wasn't drawn as sexy as some of his fans would like.

The shallowness of it all. I guess some can only support idealised characters.

Ignoring those stories doesn't stop them being Canon so what's the point.

When asked a question about a recommended reading list, people are allowed to have their own opinions about what they consider is a good read or not, or what they feel is a required read to understand a character.

Literally no one was discussing the canon or noncanon status of the books, just their opinions on what they felt was more relevant and what was worth a read. Read and consider posts carefully before jumping into an irrelevant rant.

Also....

Imagine if fans of all the other Robins/characters decided to pick and choose their canon? It's pathetic.

Putting aside the huge generalisation that apparently no other fans of comic characters ignore stories. Neither is it appropriate to then resort to name calling/insults just because you disagree with peoples opinions.

Are they? Ok with DCs current "Everything is continuty"-nonsense they are.

And I didn't say they are out of continuity, I said they are not worth reading because:
- Jason is poorly written completely out of character compared to how he was written since Flashpoint
- post Flashpoint writers of Jason's Books have for the most part ignored them, and there is no need to read them (or anything else post UTRH) to understand what is going on in Jason post crisis books, and can easily be skipped
- Countdown, Brothers in Blood and BftC afaik by most people (and not only Jason's fans) seen as really bad, and therefore I can't recommend anyone to invest time and money in them

If anyone would ask me about a Nightwing deep dive I would also advice to skip basically everything between the death of Block Buster and Thomasis Run, because that crap that was published in between is simply not worth reading.
EDIT: Or maybe a better example I case of Cassandra Cain I would advice to just skip over the whole OYL era and start reading again with her joining the Outsiders.

All of this.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Besides all the points already brought up, is it worth noting that the writers themselves pick and choose their canon, and that is precisely one of the biggest issues when it comes to Jason. Flaws aside, Lobdell left a solid foundation that dealt with most of his baggage and left him ready to be taken in new an interesting directions, but most of the writers seem content to simply rehash UTRH Ad Infinitum so Jason keeps going back to square one everytime new writers come abroad.

[Zaresh]

To add to all that's been already said, even if Aahz would've talked about leaving out stories from canon, just because you can't understand the way someone thinks, doesn't invalidate their way of thinking or makes their way of thinking and feeling lesser. It just means that you (or me, or someone else) don't understand the way they think and reason.

This is comics, a hobby. Each one chooses how to enjoy it in their own ways. It's not a religion, no matter how much we keep using the word "canon".

[NK1988]

Finally getting around to reading these Red Hood comics I bought years ago. They trimmed a lot of fat in the Under the Red Hood film.

But yeah, Comxiology rules because of this Guided View mode. It makes reading comics so much easier and more satisfying for me. My eyesight sucks and the action in comics or especially manga is so much incomprehensible bleh to me a lot of the time but at least VG helps some and also adds a really cool flow to reading dialogue.

Wish I had any idea why "we can't rely on Oracle anymore" though.


Also, it says for the blurb describing the first volume of Outlaws that "Jason Todd[...] put his past as the Red Hood behind him." Does that mean I have to read a previous comic to explain why this happened or is it addressed in Outlaws? Since I'm skipping a lot of stuff, I dunno if I'm missing a "villain to hero" transition somewhere.

[RedBird]

Finally getting around to reading these Red Hood comics I bought years ago. They trimmed a lot of fat in the Under the Red Hood film.

But yeah, Comxiology rules because of this Guided View mode. It makes reading comics so much easier and more satisfying for me. My eyesight sucks and the action in comics or especially manga is so much incomprehensible bleh to me a lot of the time but at least VG helps some and also adds a really cool flow to reading dialogue.

Wish I had any idea why "we can't rely on Oracle anymore" though.


Also, it says for the blurb describing the first volume of Outlaws that "Jason Todd[...] put his past as the Red Hood behind him." Does that mean I have to read a previous comic to explain why this happened or is it addressed in Outlaws? Since I'm skipping a lot of stuff, I dunno if I'm missing a "villain to hero" transition somewhere.

Yeah the UTRH film really condensed the story, but even though I really do like the comic, I think it was for the better, the film just has a better flow to it and I can't deny how much more accessible it is.

To answer your question about the RHATO blurb.

Short answer, no, don't worry there isn't any transition you're missing from a previous comic.

Long answer, before the new52, there was some intense back and forth with Jasons character between UTRH and Flashpoint. Like others mentioned, at that time, the Countdown story was the closest we ever came to having a 'villain' to 'hero' redemption arc and transition for Jason, before the redemption part was backpedalled in the story at the last moment and left the character in the same place as they started. And then DC went 'full blown super villain' with the character, before also then backpedalling from that idea. And then they kind of just started over with the character in the New52, going for a more anti-hero approach. The narrative reason for why Jason mellows out in this series is somewhat addressed in the book, but mainly since this book came curtesy of the new52 reboot of the dc universe, it was just a different continuity, and a fresh start, and that just allowed a different approach to the character without being weighed down by the previous failed attempts at finding a status quo for them.

Also, yeah same, I really like the guided view for digital comics, especially for tense moments in books where I don't want to know what will be on the next panel till I read it.

[NK1988]

Yeah the UTRH film really condensed the story, but even though I really do like the comic, I think it was for the better, the film just has a better flow to it and I can't deny how much more accessible it is.

To answer your question about the RHATO blurb.

Short answer, no, don't worry there isn't any transition you're missing from a previous comic.

Long answer, before the new52, there was some intense back and forth with Jasons character between UTRH and Flashpoint. Like others mentioned, at that time, the Countdown story was the closest we ever came to having a 'villain' to 'hero' redemption arc and transition for Jason, before the redemption part was backpedalled in the story at the last moment and left the character in the same place as they started. And then DC went 'full blown super villain' with the character, before also then backpedalling from that idea. And then they kind of just started over with the character in the New52, going for a more anti-hero approach. The narrative reason for why Jason mellows out in this series is somewhat addressed in the book, but mainly since this book came curtesy of the new52 reboot of the dc universe, it was just a different continuity, and a fresh start, and that just allowed a different approach to the character without being weighed down by the previous failed attempts at finding a status quo for them.

Also, yeah same, I really like the guided view for digital comics, especially for tense moments in books where I don't want to know what will be on the next panel till I read it.

I gotcha Thank you for the information. That does make things simpler on me at least.


I know the nu52 had a lot of unpopular changes (like Babs being Batgirl again) but one of those changes I just learned about from reading blurbs is Starfire. She's no longer that awkward and nice little girl from the TV show of my youth. Was she one of the popular or unpopular changes? I hear this characterization was undone by the last crisis so maybe unpopular?

Far as I know, Jason remained unchanged after the nu52 was done away with?

I really appreciate the help. Just so many questions.

[RedBird]

I gotcha Thank you for the information. That does make things simpler on me at least.


I know the nu52 had a lot of unpopular changes (like Babs being Batgirl again) but one of those changes I just learned about from reading blurbs is Starfire. She's no longer that awkward and nice little girl from the TV show of my youth. Was she one of the popular or unpopular changes? I hear this characterization was undone by the last crisis so maybe unpopular?

Far as I know, Jason remained unchanged after the nu52 was done away with?

I really appreciate the help. Just so many questions.

No worries

In regards to the new52, the reboot was mainly unpopular due to a lot of history for the majority of characters being erased and/or drastically changed, and also due to the erasure of a lot of dc characters in general. For example the bat characters, Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown simply did not exist when the new52 launched, and were instead (after some backlash to their non existent status) reintroduced to the universe a few years later. With Starfire, while she is by nature a 'fish out of water' character, generally in the dc comics, she is actually a much more mature but nice woman, and it's only really the teen titans tv show that treated her as a slightly ditsy young girl. Now when it comes to Starfire in RHATO, this book was actually a little controversial with her, especially when it first launched due to fans having issues with how sexualised she was, because of this it's probably safe to say her depiction here was generally unpopular.

And yes you are correct, Jason (at least compared to his back and forth status before new52) remained fairly unchanged after the new52 ended.

[Aahz]

And yes you are correct, Jason (at least compared to his back and forth status before new52) remained fairly unchanged after the new52 ended.

It really depends on the character how much was chagend by flashpoint and rebirth.

Damian Wayne for example was sofar barely effected by any reboot.

With Jason they used the new 52 to give the character a fresh start, and they stick with it since they didn't really had a working status quo for him before flashpoint they could really go back to.

In Tim's case flashpoint basically erased all of his previous history which was a pretty unpopular, and so they slowly started to bring his old stories back into continuty after the end of the new 52.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Something that people always seem to miss is that the cartoon Starfire was always a very different character from her comic version. Only the most basic elements where shared between the versions but comic Starfire was always a character that flaunted her sexuality and didn't think of it as a big deal.

[NK1988]

Another fairly random question - does current Jason just have normal black hair like every other man in the Bat Family? Just seems kinda boring if I'm being honest.

This is all fanart of course but I love this video and what helped me distinguish Jason was the streak in his hair. (He seems to have that streak in a lot of fanart I've seen, possibly for that exact same reason of how it helps him stand out.)
https://youtu.be/ZfiEmTEc0gs?t=354

Batman Wiki tells me this

In 2020, it was revealed that Jason Todd's Red Hood would be included in a comics-based expansion of Batman: The Animated Series with a figurine of him being released. This figurine appearing to be modelled after the Red Hood's appearance in Under the Hood with Todd's black hair with a white-streak from Batman: Hush, and his cheek-scar from the New 52.

Then there was that period he had red hair but I guess nobody talks about that.

[Zaresh]

Another fairly random question - does current Jason just have normal black hair like every other man in the Bat Family? Just seems kinda boring if I'm being honest.

This is all fanart of course but I love this video and what helped me distinguish Jason was the streak in his hair. (He seems to have that streak in a lot of fanart I've seen, possibly for that exact same reason of how it helps him stand out.)
https://youtu.be/ZfiEmTEc0gs?t=354

Batman Wiki tells me this


Then there was that period he had red hair but I guess nobody talks about that.

He has natural black hair in current continuity as shown in both Batman Urban Legends and Detective Comics (in both, he was depicted as a kid). Doesn't seem to have the white streak in Task Force Z. He does has the white streak in Future State Gotham. We know he dyes his hair in that alternate future, but we don't know if he does the same in the present time. Doesn't seem like it, though, but it could still be the case. He doesn't have it either in Titans United (alternate universe). He has that streak in the Wayne Family webtoon (official fan-comic) and I think he has it too in Robins (or it looks like that sometimes. But some few times, it also looks dark brown instead of black).

With the current loosey state of canon and continuity in the DCU, where every writer picks and takes whatever they like or not from the old continuities (it really isn't that "everything counts". It's more like "it counts whatever you choose in the current story to count"), it could be that he both has and has not the white streak right now. He could be even a natural redhead or blonde if now a writer decides to show him as that in a new story, no matter if Rosenberg's or Zdarsky's stories went with him as black haired.

My advise, just enjoy the ride and work with what the current story gives you.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Jason in the "Main" continuity is black-haired while in alternate continuity stories are up to the creative team whether he has or not the white streak. And the wiki is wrong, Jason never had a scar in the main continuity that is something that only exists on the Arkham Knight, DCA Death of the Family and Gotham Knights versions.

[Jackalope89]

Jason in the "Main" continuity is black-haired while in alternate continuity stories are up to the creative team whether he has or not the white streak. And the wiki is wrong, Jason never had a scar in the main continuity that is something that only exists on the Arkham Knight, DCA Death of the Family and Gotham Knights versions.

I'll be honest; never was a fan of the scar overall. Arkham Knight makes sense, since he never actually died and dunked in a Lazarus Pit. Outside of that, hard pass.

The white streak, could go either way on, personally. Could even be a gift from Death herself, instead of a side-effect of the Pit.

[NK1988]

I haven't read too many Batman stories but my impression from reading posts and reviews from people who have is that The Dark Knight Returns is a particularly brutal Batman. Not to get into the same old talk about Frank Miller's politics but my point is just that his focus on how Batman is at "war" and he and the Robins are "soldiers" was something I took to be peculiar to Millers interpretation.

But that language is all over this comic, too. Jason was a casualty of war. Batman lives on to fight alone. This kind of violent rhetoric sets the same tone as TDKR even in this main continuity comic far away from Miller. Or maybe I'm reading too much into it.