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  1. #286
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    My feeling about the Atlantean origin thing was that it took her from the Superman Family, and put her into the Aquaman Family. But only very, very loosely. It was a trade down IMO. But it may have saved her from the ax, if only until they basically offed her for the next decade and change after Flushpoint. It had certain narrative bits that could have been used to tie her sort of to Dr. Fate, and had it been done at the time it could have been an excuse to expand and diversify DC's magic line-up, but they didn't. And they never really did anything with her and the Atlantis thing either, at least nothing I want to remember. But honestly, had you not known she was Atlantean during that time, you could read those stories and think she was still Kryptonian, just being a bit shy about using the flashy vision and hearing powers. Or she forgot about them as such characters frequently do when the story requires them to, so it isn't like they built some big, worthwhile thing with her.

    The costumes, some of them, were fine as such things go, not the editorial designed "P" costume of the early nu52, (literally, according to Kevin Maguire IIRC, though I think Perez, (RIP), also had some comments that suggested that editorial also interfered with the story, and Maguire IIRC mentioned having to redo art because they'd wanted something different close to deadline.

    When was this big return of a mostly JSA team supposed to happen, and where did Dr. Fate get his costume?

  2. #287
    Astonishing Member Stanlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    It's Cyclone. She's in the Black Adam movie. It's not the classic team but this works too! Except Jay!
    I sincerely hope Miss Cyclone runs into Bonnie Hoffman & Carmen Leno, Vivian D'Aramis, or Vixen and gets some new gear

  3. #288
    Astonishing Member Stanlos's Avatar
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    I don't know that it was the Aquaman family so much as it was the House of Arion and Atlantis. Aquaman is also a descendent if memory serves. I would have to check that. Of course yhe Stu52 stuff diminished and possibly removed it entirely. It's been a minute

  4. #289
    Kon-El "The Scion" SuperX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    It's Cyclone. She's in the Black Adam movie. It's not the classic team but this works too! Except Jay!

    jay and "Liberty Belle" are off helping to find Barry.

    pics also missing Damage, grant Emerson imo
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  5. #290
    Astonishing Member Stanlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    My feeling about the Atlantean origin thing was that it took her from the Superman Family, and put her into the Aquaman Family. But only very, very loosely. It was a trade down IMO. But it may have saved her from the ax, if only until they basically offed her for the next decade and change after Flushpoint. It had certain narrative bits that could have been used to tie her sort of to Dr. Fate, and had it been done at the time it could have been an excuse to expand and diversify DC's magic line-up, but they didn't. And they never really did anything with her and the Atlantis thing either, at least nothing I want to remember. But honestly, had you not known she was Atlantean during that time, you could read those stories and think she was still Kryptonian, just being a bit shy about using the flashy vision and hearing powers. Or she forgot about them as such characters frequently do when the story requires them to, so it isn't like they built some big, worthwhile thing with her.

    The costumes, some of them, were fine as such things go, not the editorial designed "P" costume of the early nu52, (literally, according to Kevin Maguire IIRC, though I think Perez, (RIP), also had some comments that suggested that editorial also interfered with the story, and Maguire IIRC mentioned having to redo art because they'd wanted something different close to deadline.

    When was this big return of a mostly JSA team supposed to happen, and where did Dr. Fate get his costume?
    There were in-story explanations for the lack of using the Kryptonian powers. Remember when sustained a bad energy dealing with some nasty vampire energy blasts. She slowly regained those powers and by the time of her battle with Tiamat during War of the Gods, she had regained those powers as well as begun embracing her lineage and learning new powers.

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    There were in-story explanations for the lack of using the Kryptonian powers. Remember when sustained a bad energy dealing with some nasty vampire energy blasts. She slowly regained those powers and by the time of her battle with Tiamat during War of the Gods, she had regained those powers as well as begun embracing her lineage and learning new powers.
    And then, IIRC, they pretty much abandoned developing PG at all, instead saddling her with that most horrible of all her storylines, and probably the single creepiest one at that. See, DC, it's not enough to have an idea; you then have to develop it, and not abandon doing that the first shiny object you see.

    I'm not sure when the Warlord stuff figured in, or rather when. Sometime before she even joins the JLE? I don't think she'd made the Atlantean connection yet, that happened in her 1980s miniseries, did it not?
    Last edited by achilles; 06-30-2022 at 07:29 PM.

  7. #292
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    I sincerely hope Miss Cyclone runs into Bonnie Hoffman & Carmen Leno, Vivian D'Aramis, or Vixen and gets some new gear
    Her ability is the power to generate tornadoes so my guess is she's supposed to look a little like the wicked witch of the west from the Wizard of Oz. In the pre-Flashpoint comics she even had a witch's hat.
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  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    Actually it did. It provided her with the same clobberin time style antics one would expect from her pedigree but also provided further distinction from Supes in the way her powers worked as well as their expansion opening up new branches as she learned more. They were on the way to making her a fellow agent of Order. And during this time she was widely known as and shown to be one of the most powerful superheroes in the DCU. Compare that to the way she jobbed during 52s WW3 mini or the way Johns jobbed the crap out of her in Infinite Crisis.
    This is DC. Jobbing powerful characters is practically a tradition (especially if they're women or POC) and it wouldn't have mattered what origin she had. And how was she more powerful? She lost her flight and vision powers, and was nearly killed by the new Crimson Avenger. All this was from before she had her Kryptonian origin restored. Becoming an Agent of Order means nothing in the DCU unless you're Hawk and Dove, and even those two are c-listers at best. She also barely interacted with the Aquafamily and even if that origin remained she'd have been ignored like Koryak, Lorena, Garth and so many other Aquaman characters.

    Also didn't Johns have her and Supergirl beat up Superboy Prime? I even remember a time when she intimated him by threatening to laser off his penis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    I don't know that it was the Aquaman family so much as it was the House of Arion and Atlantis. Aquaman is also a descendent if memory serves. I would have to check that. Of course yhe Stu52 stuff diminished and possibly removed it entirely. It's been a minute
    I'd say this is further proof the Atlantean origin would have never done Karen any favors in the long term. She'd have either been erased or changed back into a Kryptonian when the New 52 rolled along.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    Foremost is it evolved the character in the vein of its original trajectory while still honoring her real life origins.
    How? I really don't want to come across as hostile at all and I do respect your opinion but I feel like the Atlantean retcon respected Karen's origins about as well as the New 52 respected Wonder Woman's. Perhaps moreso than the latter but I don't think that says much.

    Second I like the prestige and new story opportunities it provided her as a member of the ancient Royal House of Atlantis. The Lords of Order and Echidna stuff was fascinating and could portend much in the way of growth and expansion. We lost the S7 stuff unfortunately because that was a creator owned property but the rest was ripe for mining and enabled her to co-exist with Supergirl without risk of being absorbed/annihilated/relegated to wallpaper because while there were NODS to her real life origin as the Supergirl of E2 she was never Supergirl or even Kryptonian but was rather assumed as such by the media when Supes discovered her ship.

    The origin gives the best of both worlds and protects her from the reality we are living right now where Supergirl has primacy and Peege is just ...there.

    In a way, just being wallpaper is waaaaaayyyyyyy better what Johns and co did to her making her main storypoint OMG I am so sad I am not Supes cousin or OMG my Superman is dead. She became a husk with nothing of her own.

    Better off missing in action, I say. Especially in the historical context of the character. It is like they low key pooped on Kara the same way they pooped on WW with Stupid 52s WW relaunch.
    Story opportunities are only as good as their actual usage. From what I've seen of DC over the years, they don't care about any Atlantean not named Arthur, Mera and to an extent Kaldur.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-01-2022 at 07:14 AM.

  9. #294
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    Whelp, in any event, any date set for a confirmed return of classic PG? As in solicit text mentioning her by name? And is there any explanation story planned for what happened to her from her point of view for all this time?

  10. #295
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    There's art from Dark Crisis #3 where the JSA show up, and Karen's there. No dialogue from anyone, though I dunno if it's a silent panel or if word balloons just haven't been added. Probably the latter. Don't recall the JSA being mentioned in solicit text, definitely don't recall Karen being mentioned either. So I wouldn't get too excited about anything, this could easily be a small cameo by the JSA where Karen doesn't say anything and nothing comes of it. But the roster definitely looks like it's aimed at a new ongoing; it's not just the old men of the Golden Age and it isn't the Johns era roster either, though it does include a lot of those guys.

    Other than that? I haven't heard a thing about PG showing up anywhere. Last I knew, her most recent appearance was One-Star Squadron which isn't even continuity.

    Oh, a while back PKJ, writer of Action, did say that he was considering using Karen in a upcoming arc. Said there was a good place to fit her in, if he decides to include her (and is allowed to, I assume).

    Edit: whoops, just realized that the art I'm talking about was posted on the last page. My bad!

    pics also missing Damage, grant Emerson imo
    Man do I miss Damage. But even if the JSA get a book after Dark Crisis I don't expect to see Grant in it. Johns used him in that second series but Damage is far removed from being a JSA mainstay.
    Last edited by Ascended; 07-01-2022 at 08:13 AM.
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  11. #296
    Astonishing Member The Frog Bros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    There's art from Dark Crisis #3 where the JSA show up, and Karen's there. No dialogue from anyone, though I dunno if it's a silent panel or if word balloons just haven't been added. Probably the latter. Don't recall the JSA being mentioned in solicit text, definitely don't recall Karen being mentioned either. So I wouldn't get too excited about anything, this could easily be a small cameo by the JSA where Karen doesn't say anything and nothing comes of it. But the roster definitely looks like it's aimed at a new ongoing; it's not just the old men of the Golden Age and it isn't the Johns era roster either, though it does include a lot of those guys.

    Other than that? I haven't heard a thing about PG showing up anywhere. Last I knew, her most recent appearance was One-Star Squadron which isn't even continuity.

    Oh, a while back PKJ, writer of Action, did say that he was considering using Karen in a upcoming arc. Said there was a good place to fit her in, if he decides to include her (and is allowed to, I assume).

    Edit: whoops, just realized that the art I'm talking about was posted on the last page. My bad!
    I'd love to see PG under the pen of PKJ.
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  12. #297
    Mighty Member seccruz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Frog Bros View Post
    I'd love to see PG under the pen of PKJ.
    I would love PG with the super fam!
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  13. #298
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Frog Bros View Post
    I'd love to see PG under the pen of PKJ.
    Likewise. Hope it's true.
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  14. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Likewise. Hope it's true.
    I doubt they have anything planned for PG. She still after all this time does not have a character entry on DC's own website; that to me speaks of no plans in the foreseeable future. Nor do I see her figuring in any live action or animated plans for WB. Though I can see how Ratcatcher 2 is a more important character than PG to DC.

  15. #300
    Mighty Member M@Bowers2014's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    There's art from Dark Crisis #3 where the JSA show up, and Karen's there. No dialogue from anyone, though I dunno if it's a silent panel or if word balloons just haven't been added. Probably the latter. Don't recall the JSA being mentioned in solicit text, definitely don't recall Karen being mentioned either. So I wouldn't get too excited about anything, this could easily be a small cameo by the JSA where Karen doesn't say anything and nothing comes of it. But the roster definitely looks like it's aimed at a new ongoing; it's not just the old men of the Golden Age and it isn't the Johns era roster either, though it does include a lot of those guys.

    Other than that? I haven't heard a thing about PG showing up anywhere. Last I knew, her most recent appearance was One-Star Squadron which isn't even continuity.

    Oh, a while back PKJ, writer of Action, did say that he was considering using Karen in a upcoming arc. Said there was a good place to fit her in, if he decides to include her (and is allowed to, I assume).

    Edit: whoops, just realized that the art I'm talking about was posted on the last page. My bad!



    Man do I miss Damage. But even if the JSA get a book after Dark Crisis I don't expect to see Grant in it. Johns used him in that second series but Damage is far removed from being a JSA mainstay.
    She showed up with a lot of the other current JSA members in the Infinite Frontier min which actually leads into the Dark Crisis series. Hopefully their appearance in DC #3 and beyond will lead into an ongoing after all is said and done.

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